Girls Boarding School

[nancyt]

Hi Jane,
her mothers name was Elizabeth Price have no idea of the father only that he was from a fairly wealthy family as she was provided for, and educated at a private school in Brighton and as the story goes, known as Helena Hall or Hill Price. She was married in 1887, on her marriage certificate , she has her father as one Archibald Price, retired soldier. I can only think that was purely for convenience. On the 1891/1901 her place of birth is listed as London/ middlesex. I have not been able to find her on any other census. Thanks so much for your help.
nancyt

[nancyt]

I realize that this may seem like a whacky idea but maybe one I personally would consider.
The link Alan gave you to 1867 Kellys Diectory is very informative. If you work through it you will see that there were dozens of Girls Schools, Children's Homes, Childrens preparatory schools, boarding and otherwise.
If you were to note the name of the owner or school mistress you will probably find it in the 1871 census followed by all the girls names.
If you were to find a Helena maybe it would be worth noting the surname or surnames and then using the birthplace and age to give you a possible trail to follow.
It would seem very possible that she did use another surname.
Do you know if she came from an affluent or a poor family? This could help too.
I guess you would need to take this in easy stages however it could give you eyestrain!!

Giving it a go, lots of patcience lots of lager , and new specs!!
nancyt

[Alan Welsford]

OK

Advance apologies if I ask anything you have already supplied.

You obviously have her marriage certificate, and have quoted father details.

What age does it say she is then ? Where is the wedding ?

Have you been able to locate the birth, and get a birth certificate ?

Have you found her mother, Elizabeth Price, in the censuses. If so where is she, and how long can you track her for ?

Can you point us at where to find Helena in 1891 & 1901, (including her married name).

I'm sure you've looked long and hard, and it's unlikely someone is going to spot something you haven't, but it's worth a try, I guess.

Alan

[nancyt]

Hi Allen,
many thanks for your interest. Marriage cert. 1887 Cardiff to Henry Robert Ashfield, she is 21. 1891 census they are lodging in Llanwitfarde nr Ponypridd. 1901 Ynysybwl also nr Pontypridd. I have found her mother Elizabeth Price on the 1991census in the Abergavenny asylum, searched the records and found she had been in the Hay workhouse prior to that. In 1903 she was transferred to the Talgarth asylum. It's the early years from Helena's birth to her marriage that I'm stuck on. It is said she was trained as a nurse in London I have tried St Barts but she is not on there records. She has no occupation listed on her marriage cert.
nancyt

[Alan Welsford]

Ah, so she married as an Ellen Elizabeth, not a Helena, by the look of it.

So she changes her forename, and her surname(s).

I can see she is quite a challenge(!)

You didn't say if you have managed to track down the right birth registration.

Do we know what she was called at birth, please ?

Alan

[Alan Welsford]

I can start to appreciate the enormity of your task in trying to track this lady before her marriage.

Unless there's information you haven't posted, it seems we could be trying to find an Ellen, or Ellen Elizabeth, or Helena, or Helena Elizabeth, and that her surname may be PRICE, HALL PRICE or HILL PRICE. That's a lot of possible combinations, to look for an individual, on her own, and at place unknown.

Obviously the 1891 & 1901 census point to a London birth, but there seem to be across censuses from 1871 to 1891 more Helena PRICEs born in London than there are GRO birth registrations at the right time, (even without counting yours as one of them).

But then if she married as Ellen PRICE, then I guess she could have been registered as Ellen, rather than Helena at birth.

Do you have anything beyond the censuses that establishes the London birth to be correct, please ? Where's her mother from, and where is she in 1861 and 1871, if you know.

Lots of questions, sorry, but I can't see this puzzle having quick answers, (but then you have probably spent enough time on it to know that!)

Alan

(Incidentally, I wasn't able to find her mother in any of those institutions in Wales, but then I didn't really have adequate information to search for her - there are a lot of Elizabeth PRICEs in Wales)

[Jane M]

Unless I've missed something how have we got the name Ellen Elizabeth?
I found the mother, Elizabeth (at least I think it is) in 1891 (RG12/4580/37/38 in Hay, Breconshire in an institution, born 1843, Hay Breconshire...is that her Nancy???
What puzzles me is the use of the name Hill/Hall as her middle name. Could this be the father's name? Was this the name she gave on her marriage certificate?
Sorry, more questions to add to Alan's

jane

[Alan Welsford]

Unless I've missed something how have we got the name Ellen Elizabeth?

It's from what appears to be the marriage that Nancy detailed in post #14, (Unless I've found the wrong one, but this is at least in South Wales where they end up).

Marriages Mar 1887
------------------------------------------
ASHFIELD Henry Robert Cardiff 11a 369
PRICE Ellen Elizabeth Cardiff 11a 369

I found the mother, Elizabeth (at least I think it is) in 1891 (RG12/4580/37/38 in Hay, Breconshire in an institution, born 1843, Hay Breconshire...is that her Nancy???

OK I was going for Abergavenny in 1891, but I now see that Nancy said "1991 census", which I didn't spot, and is obviously a mistake. It could be taken either as 1891 or 1901 - I went for 1891, but it sounds like 1901 is what was meant.

What puzzles me is the use of the name Hill/Hall as her middle name.

Ah! now there I wasn't sure again.
Is she using one of those, (why 2 ), as a MIDDLE name, or like a double-barrelled surname.
Where does the Hill / Hall fit in Nancy ? Where do they appear, please ?

Was this the name she gave on her marriage certificate?

It looks unlikely given how the GRO have indexed it, but perhaps it appears after Ellen Elizabeth. Can you tell us, please, Nancy.

I repeat my question, though, have you come close to isolating the right birth registration, please ?

[Jane M]

Hi Alan,
I think we should wait for Nancy to get back to us with a few answers to our questions.
Personally I have the feeling that something is not quite right with all this.
1. Yet another question Nancy, but how do you know Helena's mothers name was Elizabeth? This wouldn't be recorded on her marriage certificate
2. I'm very dubious about this marriage in Cardiff. Why would she go from Helena Hill/Hall Price to Ellen Elizabeth?

I think it would be helpful if Nancy unravelled this for us & explained how she got back to her grandmother's marriage which is in the name of Ellen Elizabeth Price and where Helena Hill/Hall Price comes in

Jane

[nancyt]

Hi Jane& Allen ,
first I apologize for the putting in a wrong date Jane , we don't need me adding to the confusion! My mother was taken by her father after the death of her mother to see her Grandmother Elizabeth Price in the asylum about 1919I have seen the asylum records, she came there from Hay workhouse in November 1893 aged 40, the records say she has an illegitimate child. From what my mother and her brother have both said Elizabeth Price came from Hay, left home and went to work in London in the house of someone called Hill or Hall. I have never been able to find a birth record for Helena, as yet . She went to school in Brighton apparently under the name of Hall Price or Hill Price.I can only think,and of course it is pure conjecture,that maybe due to the age of Elizabeth at the time Helena was born. The fathers family took responsibility for the child's education.Though it does seem unusual that she used the Hill or Hall surname. As to the marrige cert. I can only think Ellen might have been a mistake on the part of the registrar as it does sound quite like Helena, and as to the Elizabeth I just don't know, but she is Helena E Ashfield in the death records. The marriage cert. must be correct as Henry Robert Ashfield was my Grandfather. There are no documents to verify the Hil or Hall only what has been told to the family. Many thanks for your interest, what I do know has taken years to find out, I want now to find some record of this boarding school and boy Brighton seemed to have had more than it's share of them.
nancyt