Waterloo

[neil1821]

Sgt Charles King, 7th Light Dragoons was also at Waterloo, still with the same regiment.
So there are definitely at least 2 Charles King's here.

Neil

[redbert]

Yes i can come forward starting with my father

Bertram WILTON-KING Born: INDIA 1913
His Father
Bertram KING Born: INDIA 1885
His Father
James Charles KING Born: Birmingham 1848 Married: Gertrude WILTON 1884!!!!

James was a BANDMASTER with the 11th hussars & 8th KRI Hussars having trained at KNELLER HALL MILITARY MUSIC ACADAMY 1870-1872 & 1880-1882
His Father
James KING Born: Dublin 1809 also a BANDMASTER enlisted with the ROYAL STAFF CORPS aged 13 1821 then the 5th Dragoons medically discharged 1850
becoming a PROFESSOR of MUSIC residing in DERBY , i have his ATTESTATION & Medical Discharge Papers, !!!!!!!!!
While googling i discovered the Book BRITISH MUSICAL BIOGRAPHY 1897 By James D Brown that mentioned in an article the James King above was & i Quote from the BOOK: He was present at the Battle of Waterloo with his Father (alas no Christian Name) who was a TRUMPET/MAJOR (alas no mention of Reg/t) he died Sept 22 1888, that ties in with my data to date,
as James & Charles are common in the KING family i assumed the James you came up with was more likely to be my man being a sergeant, as the 2 previous KINGs had both been sergeants!!!!!!!!!!, sorry to have been so long-winded, hope you can understand my Prattling ?????? Cheers Redbert
Reading Neils email he is of the opinion that there are 2 Charles KINGs!!!!!!!!!
with the 7th dragoons, as you say all a bit confusing?????, It appears to me geof you are well versed with the MILITARY ARCHIVES, so i would welcome your comments & advise Thanks

[redbert]

Hi Neil thanks for your comments, so you think there are 2 CHARLES KINGs, nothings straight forward with my Family, do you have any further data ??????
as i have had an email from a chap, whos come up with 3 KINGs

Charles KING Captain 16th L/t Dragoons

James KING Private in Captain Vernors Troop !!!!!!

Finlay KING Sergeant/Major No Reg/t apart from he died in 1842

No mention of the 7th L/t Dragoons?????????

Redbert cheers

[neil1821]

I'm getting a bit confused here! To quote from you:

"James KING Born: Dublin 1809 also a BANDMASTER enlisted with the ROYAL STAFF CORPS aged 13 1821 then the 5th Dragoons medically discharged 1850
becoming a PROFESSOR of MUSIC residing in DERBY , i have his ATTESTATION & Medical Discharge Papers, !!!!!!!!!
While googling i discovered the Book BRITISH MUSICAL BIOGRAPHY 1897 By James D Brown that mentioned in an article the James King above was & i Quote from the BOOK: He was present at the Battle of Waterloo with his Father (alas no Christian Name) who was a TRUMPET/MAJOR (alas no mention of Reg/t) he died Sept 22 1888, that ties in with my data to date,
as James & Charles are common in the KING family i assumed the James you came up with was more likely to be my man being a sergeant, as the 2 previous KINGs had both been sergeants!!!!!!!!!!, sorry to have been so long-winded, hope you can understand my Prattling ?????? Cheers Redbert"

Up to now we've been talking about CHARLES King, not James. I don't see how the James King you mention here can have been at the Battle of Waterloo, as he was age 6 at the time and indeed only enlisted in 1821 apparently!
There were AT LEAST two Charles King's at Waterloo, I haven't searched the entire muster. And I think there must have been plenty more than 3 men there with the surname King, I'll check this evening.

[Geoffers]

James Charles KING Born: Birmingham 1848 Married: Gertrude WILTON 1884!!!!

Something in all of this doesn't seem to add up and it's difficult to pin it down - it may be that the 1897 book you mention has suffered from poor research (as Neil has pointed out - a 6 year old at Waterloo??). In the meantime, let's go back to some basic detail and make sure that nothing has gone wrong there:

1. From the marriage certificate for James Charles KING
a) What is the age and marital condition of the groom?
b) What is the name and occupation of the father?

2. From the birth certificate for James Charles KING
a) What is his father's name and occupation?
b) In particular - what is the name and maiden name of his mother?

Make sure that all of the above fits with what you have already posted.........then..........

3. Can you locate James Charles KING in the 1851 census? If so could you transcribe the entry on this thread. Where and when was the mother born? Any siblings - when and where born?

Does this all tie in with the above birth and marriage certificates and what you have found out about a James KING who was born in Dublin and enlisted in the army?

There ought to be some wills for this family somewhere and these may provide important information. I hasten to add that I'm not trying to tear apart all your hard work, just trying to ensure that you are pursuing the right course.

[Geoffers]

Further to my last

I see that the GRO death index, confirms the death of a James Charles KING in Derby RD, 1888 aged 79

and that the 1881 census confirms that James Charles (then aged 71) was born in Dublin. There is a son, William aged 46 (bn c.1835) - as this birth was whilst James Charles was in the army, the birth of William may be registered in either the Regimental Registers or Army Chaplains' returns, which would allow you to get a birth certificate and the maiden name of the mother (Elizabeth, in 1881 aged 65, bn Newcastle).

Do the attestation papers for James KING (bn Dublin 1809) record him as James or James Charles? Have you found a baptism for a James Charles KING in Dublin?

[neil1821]

OK, I've had a chance to go through the Waterloo musters FOR THE CAVALRY ONLY so far, and there are 18 men by the name of King:

Pte James King, 2nd Life Guards
Pte William King, 2nd Life Guards
Pte William King, 1st Dragoons (No.1 troop)
Pte William King, 1st Dragoons (No.3 troop)
Pte Robert King, 1st Dragoons (No.7 troop)
Pte James King, 2nd Dragoons (Verner's troop)
Pte Richard King, 6th Dragoons (Brown's troop)
Pte James King, 6th Dragoons (Douglas' troop)
Sgt Charles King, 7th Hussars
Pte James King, 10th Hussars (No.5 troop)
Pte John King, 12th Light Dragoons (Wallace's troop)
Trumpeter ? King, 13th Light Dragoons
Pte George King, 13th Light Dragoons
Captain Charles King, 16th Light Dragoons
Pte James King, 18th Hussars (Luard's troop)
Trumpet Major William King, 23rd Light Dragoons
Sgt Benjamin King, 23rd Light Dragoons (No.4 troop)
Trumpeter William King jnr, 23rd Light Dragoons (No.6 troop)

Note in particular the Trumpet Major and Trumpeter (his son?) in the 23rd LD.
Any stories of a trumpet-major named King at Waterloo MUST refer to this chap.

[redbert]

Sorry it would appear i have confused matters, i will try to put things right,
if i write the Full section from the BRITISH MUSICAL BIOGRAPHY 1897 it might make things clearer as follows

"KING. James, composer & bandmaster of the 5th Dragoons, was born about 1809. When only six years old he was present at the Battle of Waterloo with his father, who was TRUMPET/MAJOR. he died in DERBY Sept 22 1888. Composer of MUSIC for MILITARY BANDs".

That is the full notation, i dont think the author was suggesting J/K was actually involved in the MILITARY action, merely stating that perhaps the family were Billited with his father, as i understand that families traveled with the Reg/ts in those days, please correct me geof if i am wrong !!!!!!!!!!!

As you can see from the notation there is no mention of the fathers Name or Reg/t, i emailed a friend attaching the notation, & they came up with 3 possible names "CHARLES KING (Captain-16th L/t Dragoons), JAMES KING (Private, in Captain Vernors Troop!!!!!) & a FINLAY KING (Serg/t/Major ??????)
it was my friend that suggested CHARLES KING could me my ancestor??????
So i think i might have muddled things up for you & Neil SORRY!!!!!!!
As for your questions answer to 1 (A) The age of James Charles King listed on his M/cert is 35 1 (B) Fathers Name: JAMES no Profession?????
2 (A) i have not got his B/cert yet!!!!, therefore can not name Father or occupation?? 2 (B) His mothers NEE name was HEANEY born Newcastle
3 As for the CENSUS i have not got 1851, as i think the family were in Ireland that year, However i have the 1861,1871,1881 & 1891, the 1861,1871 & 1881 James KING is Head of The family Muscian there are 5 other siblings, e,g, the 1861 CENSUS JAMES KING: Head; Age: 52: MUSCIAN: DUBLIN: ELIZABETH KING: Wife: Age: 45: NEWCASTLE: WILLIAM KING: Son: Age: 19: MUSCIAN: DUBLIN: EMILY KING: Daug: Age: 15: NOTTINGHAM: JAMES KING: Son: Age: 12: Scholar: BIRMINGHAM: ALFRED KING: Son: Age: 10: Scholar: LONGFORD Ireland: EDMUND KING: Son: Age: 8: Scholar: LONGFORD IRELAND this is consistant with all census, well geof hope you can make sense of all this now, all the data i have appears to LINK up.
SORRY for the confusion?????????? Redbert

[redbert]

P.S. Geof forgot to add on his Service Record he is named as JAMES KING Born 1809 DUBLIN, also his ATTESTATION & his MEDICAL DISCHARGE dated 7 Nov 1850 with the 5th Dragoons SERGEANT MUSCIAN at LONGFORD IRELAND

He enlisted with the ROYAL STAFF CORPS 26th June 1921 ATTESTED 30th June 1821 Aged 13 Private BUGLE-BOY

What appears to be more confusing is that both the JAMES's had the second or used the Name CHARLES ????????, any idea's ?????????
redbert

[neil1821]

Hi Redbert,
I suppose it's fair enough to say families would have been present with the troops in the Low Countries/Belgium in 1815, but that entry from the British Musical Biography says "when only six years old he was present at the Battle...." which I can't believe (not at the battle itself).

In fact, I'm not sure how much of that entry on James King I would trust. Looking into it more, if he enlisted in 1821 and was discharged in 1850, this info doesn't fit with him being in the 5th Dragoons who didn't exist at this time (they were disbanded in 1799 and only reformed in 1858)
https://www.regiments.org/regiments/uk/cav/D05L.htm

The puzzle deepens!

Oh by the way, Finlay King (the 3rd name that was suggested to you by someone else) was Sgt-Major of the 42nd Highlanders (Black Watch). Why were those 3 names in particular considered as possibles?