some poor house questions

[TraceyNZ]

Hi everyone

I have a few questions about poor houses. I'm a bit baffled about a possible baby born to my ancestors. In 1818 they married and had 3 children, in 1819, 1820, 1823.

A forth child was born 1825. sometime in 1826 she died in a poor house. The poor house was in the village they lived in.. 6 more children followed her with no more mention of poor houses.

Could she have been abandoned by them? disabled? I have tried google but its hard to find basic answers as to why people sent their children to them. Maybe the whole family had to live there. How did people get out of these places once they got in?

And while I'm at it, is it true that the parish church had a lot of say over peoples lives, in that they couldnt just 'up sticks' and move to a new town without permission? Its really hard to decipher some of the things I've read.

Sorry for the questions but I am really interested in sorting things out so that I understand what I have once and for all.

One last question is: for poorer people was it usual for the new bride to live near to her husband's family rather than her own? this is in regard to the parish question above. The couple I speak of married in her village and seem to have then lived in his village. They came out here to New Zealand in 1840.

thanks in advance for any answers..

[suedent]

It's possible that the child had a contagious disease and in the absence of a local hospital she went to the Poorhouse to be isolated.

I have a couple of children from my husband's family who died of Scarlet Fever. The two girls died in the Workhouse, the rest of the family were living about half a mile away & the father was employed. It's possible that the two girls were removed to the hospital either for treatment or to isolate them from the general community.

As far as the new bride living near her husband's family, this wasn't uncommon. They would have lived in the area that the husband was working.

[suedent]

I should have added of course that the choice of Poorhouse/Workhouse over a doctor or hospital would have been down to cost. Most ordinary working people would not be able to afford a doctor which is why it was quite common to see "No medical attendance" on a death certificate.

[Peter Goodey]

is it true that the parish church had a lot of say over peoples lives, in that they couldnt just 'up sticks' and move to a new town without permission?

Don't get confused between 'parish' and 'parish church'. There was a greater or lesser overlap at various times in history but the Poor Laws were strictly civil laws.

The workhouse site has a description of the Poor Laws.

workhouses.org.uk

[Wilkes_ml]

I believe I read somewhere that once a woman married, she was then lawfully belonging to the parish of her husband, so the parish of her husband would then have to provide for her and any children in times of need.

I read that it was common for a "parish" i.e. the overseers to try to marry off poor pregnant unmarried women to elderly poor men of a neighbouring parish to relieve their responsibilities!

I have generally found that women marry in their home parish, but then move to their husband's parish as this is usually where the husband is working. Of course if the husband is a labourer and he needs to move about for work, he can, but if they have no work, the whole family would be moved back to the husbands original parish via the settlement orders.

I'm not sure what happens to widows though.

[Peter Goodey]

I'm not sure what happens to widows though.

A widow's settlement is that of her late husband.

[suedent]

On the whole there wasn't a problem moving from parish to parish, the issues about settlement would only arise if for some reason you were unable to work & asked the parish for assistance. Understandably parishes were only prepared to support their own.

Occasionally disputes would arise between two parishes as to who was responsible for a persons care. If the documents survive they can make fascinating reading.

Settlement documents can also help to break down brick walls. My gggg-grandfather married in St Martin by Looe in 1800 declaring himself to be "of this parish". A quick check of the baptisms drew a blank. It was only when A2A came online that I spotted

"Appeal of St Pinnock against order dated 11 Mar 1782 for removal of John Jay, wife Dorothy & children John 14, Ann 11, Jane 8, Henry 6, Sarah 5, Mary 18mo from Lanreath to St Pinnock. Order confirmed."

A check of St Pinnock baptisms brought up my Henry & all his siblings.

[BeeE586]

Don't get confused between 'parish' and 'parish church'. There was a greater or lesser overlap at various times in history but the Poor Laws were strictly civil laws.

At one time the Churchwardens of the parish (in the ecclesiastical sense) doled out charity to the needy as any reference to Churchwardens' Accounts will show. These may be payments of a small weekly amount or occasional amounts, say, to supply a pair of shoes to a needy child or a load of coals to a family. Often mentioned in wills was a donation to 'the pore mans box' or money left to supply a loaf of bread on Sunday morning or 'a gown at Christmas to six poor widows', and so on. Some old parish churches still display a board of charities. Part of the tithes paid to the minister were also supposed to be used for this purpose, as was the mortuary paid when a person died. The Church did have a great influence on peoples' lives and finances.

When the Civil Parishes were created such duties were taken over by Overseers of the Poor, although these were often the same men who were the Churchwardens. A tax could be levied to help pay. The whole business of Overseers, Settlement and Parish Law does make very interesting reading and is to be recommended.

Eileen

[TraceyNZ]

for all your help. Its all a bit less mysterious now.

I'm so relieved to find out they didnt just dump their baby into the poor house, but that she was sick and they didnt have a choice, I know they were poor. Everything makes so much more sense to me. The couple marrying in the bride's parish and then living in the husband's makes their children's births all fall into place... still a few questions to ask that I didnt think of yesterday, I will have a look later and see if i can find the right place to post them.

[Peter Goodey]

The whole business of Overseers, Settlement and Parish Law does make very interesting reading and is to be recommended.

Yes it is, together with broader reading on the historical relationshio between church and state in England. For the purposes of this discussion (19th century), I wanted to steer clear of too much history.