Hart- Simmons- Thorley-Whelan- Willett UK and Australian links

[phillip]

The following families are all related to the Hart/Jacobs/Crawcour main lines ( see Hart and Jacobs listings).
Any data or information on the following welcome.

David Henry Hart b circa 1820 London d ? ( son of John Hart and Elizabeth Hart nee Jacobs ) m Sarah Simmons b abt 1823 d 1890 Paddington NSW ( daughter of James Simmons b 1797 d 1849 and Agnes Thorley b 1801 d 1890)
The children of David and Sarah:
a) John Hart b 1845 Sydney

b) James Nathan Hart b 1850 Middx d 1920 Rose Bay Sydney m 1) Kate Theresa Whelan b ? d 1886 Waverly MA 2) ? Throsby
Child of 1st Marriage Claude Spencer Hart b 1880

c) Percy E Hart b 1860 Middx

d) possibly 3 other daughters

Nb In the 1861 British Census Sarah Hart is living at 25 Ashburton Cottages Croydon with John/James/Percy but she is given as a widow b Australia and living on independent means
At no 26 is Sarah H Simmons Married House Proprietor 45

However, David Henry Hart is still alive early 1870s because he sends thanks for the messages received on the death of his mother Elizabeth Hart nee Jacobs.

For researchers interested in any of the above lines see the website of Prof Jim Falk ( Cohen and Cassirer descendants).

Phillip

[johnt]

Dear Phillip,

I came across this message will researching on the internet, for I have been researching the family of Sarah Simmons and David Hart. Sarah's mother Agnes Thorley was my gt gt aunt. I have found it somewhat diffcult to find information on the Hart family and there is not a huge amount of information on Sarah in local Australian sources.

I am hoping we can share information if you were interested

cheers

john

[phillip]

Dear John,
There is more data on the Thorley-Simmons and Hart lines contained in the Cohen and Cassirer Family History website. This website is maintained by Prof Jim Falk ( Melbourne). I have added a small amount of new data to Jim's site but this has not included the Sarah and David Hart lines of which I still know little. I have no information regarding what happened to Sarah and David's children beyond what I originally obtained from the website.
However, I was in recent contact with other researchers looking into the Thorley/Simmons lines via Genesreunited and am aware of a range of their relatives but this has not added to the Hart/Simmons data.
There are apparent American connections to the James Nathan Hart line which again I know nothing about.
I am happy to share what I know with you.
Regards
Phillip

[phillip]

Dear John,
As a recap my association to David Hart and Sarah Simmons is via the parents of David who are John Hart and Elizabeth Jacobs my ggg grandparents. On this line and also the siblings of John I have much more data.
Phillip

[johnt]

Dear Phillip,

Thank you for your reply. I am familiar with the website of Dr Falk and have exchanged information with him in recent years. My main interest was naturally the Simmons family who we may have discovered were directly related to the Cohen family of Melbourne.

I was glad to have come across your information in this thread, for until then I was not aware that David Hart had a middlename, nor the identity of his parents, so I must thank you for that. I find the IGI has little on the family group. It would seem David & Sarah spent quite some time in England which may explain the lack of data in local sources.

I have only been able to indentify 2 sons John and (Nathan) James an as such was very interested in your listing of a third son in the 1861 Cencus. Can you verify that for me? Only James had a child - son Claude, who was the only grandson and heir. Claude in turn had a son and daughter and as far as I know they both remained in Australia.

The only US connections I know were not from the Hart side, but rather from Sarah's sisters. Her sister Frances' (M1. Gibbes M2. Gadsden) son settled there around 1900. Her other sister Elizabeth Wangenheim's grandson settled there as well.

Are you able to access my email via this addresss? If not I will post it so I can send some files to you. I would be most interested in any snippets you have on David or Sarah, no matter how small. Sarah died a very wealthy widow and as few records have survived to mark the passing of thier lives it seems rather unfortunate.

Cheers

John

[phillip]

Dear John,
Please send me your e mail via Private Reply and I will send you a range of data on the John Hart family. Henry Chapman Hart youngest son of John and Elizabeth and brother of David is my gg grandfather. The 3rd son of David and Sarah is Percy- I have a copy of the 1861 British Census which records James/John/Percy. I also have the 1841 British Census which records David and his siblings plus parents.
The Australian Historical Jewish Journal has references to James Nathan Hart and possibly other relatives but I have not been able to access the journals.
My lines include: MYERS/HART/CRAWCOUR/JACOBS with marriages to COURLANDER/MOSES/LEVY/SALAMAN/WULFSON/GOLDSMID/SIMMONS amongst others.

Best wishes
Phillip

[phillip]

For John and other researchers the 1841 British Census for the John Hart family shows:
H0107/741/2
City of Westminster Parish of St Mary le Strand
319 Strand
John Hart 40 Tailor born same county
Elizabeth Hart 35 " " "
David Hart 20 Tailor " "
Edward Hart 18 Salesman " "
Julia Hart 15 " "
Sarah Hart 13 " "
Catherine Hart 10 " "
Benjamin Hart 5 " "
Henry Hart 2 and a half " "
? Hart unknown age male " "

Also at same address
Joseph Goodman 20 Salesman " "
Mary Hull 15
Maria Cranfield 15
Rebecca Gershon 60


Nb David Hart's middle name was JOHN and not Henry

Phillip

[phillip]

John,
The 1861 British Census for Sarah Hart and her family shows:
RG 9/450
Parish of Croydon
Ecclesiastical District of St Marks

25 Ashburton Cottages
Sarah Hart Head Widow 35 Independent means b Australia
Percy E Hart son 1 b Middlesex London
John Hart son 15 b Australia
James Hart son 11 b Middlesex London

Eliza Poulter servant Un 16

Nb at 26 Ashburton Cottages
Sarah H Simmons Head Married 45 House Propietor b Middlesex London
Fanny Brown Servant Unmarried 17

In Doreen Berger The Jewish Victorian. Genealogical Information from the Jewish Newspapers 1871-80 P211 There is an entry which reads:
Mr David John Hart thanks for condolences for his late mother - 20 St Johns Wood Road NW 8/3/1872
His mother Elizabeth Hart had died 26.2.1872 at 26 Westbourne Park Terrace Bayswater age 72. She is my ggg grandmother.

The issue regarding this entry is that David is the husband of Sarah Hart given as a widow in 1861.

Phillip

[phillip]

I have recommenced my research on my Hart lines not least because the excellent Genpals Cemetery Project and JGSGB 1851 census project has a range of data on the families which I have also contributed to.
The Genpals cemetery project has the photograph of the tombstone of John Hart d 1865 -wife Elizabeth Hart nee Jacobs and mother of David John Hart father of James Nathan Hart ( Nathan) and John Hart. James Nathan Hart ( Nathan on his birth certificate) was born 17 August 1849 15 Earl Street Sisson Grove Marylebone- father David Hart tailor and mother Sarah Hart nee Simmons.
There is significant data on the Elizabeth Jacobs lines which also appears on this site. Data on the deaths of John and Elizabeth Hart plus the marriages of some of their children also appears in Berger 1861-70.

Any Austraian researchers with links to my lines are welcome to contact me.
Phillip

[jennyl]

Hello Phillip
I'm new to this forum and to genealogy, but my father (who passed away two years ago) spent a lot of time researching our family history. Some of the information he gathered suggests that Percy Hart and my great grandfather, Percy Underwood, may be the same person. I don't remember the exact details but I can access Dad's records quite readily. I'd be interested to hear your comments on this information.
Regards
Jenny