Richard J Nicholls - 1845 Marriage?

[FredP]

Back in September 2004, when looking for the marriage of Frances Harriet Cooper and Richard James Nicholls, which actually took place in 1860, I was told of an entry for Richard J Nicholls in 1845, which I ignored as he would have been 17 at that time. However it now appears that the objects of my research were co-habiting for at least 10 years prior to their marriage, probably due to the existance of a previous spouse.
I have not been able to trace the 1845 marriage which took place in Lambeth according to my informant. Does any one else know where this record can be found?
Many thanks for any information or suggestions,
FredP.

[Jane M]

Hi Fred,

So you're saying that Richard married twice, once in 1845, Lambeth & then to Frances Harriet Cooper in 1860? Neither marriage is showing on FreeBMD. Do you have the details of the 1860 marriage? Have you found anyone on any of the census?
More details would help to pin this guy down

Jane

[FredP]

Thank you, Jane.

The details for the marriage of Richard James Nicholls and Frances Harriet Cooper, which are on 1837online, are -

Oct/Dec 1860 Kensington 1 a 24 P.

In 1851 Fanny Cooper and Richard Cooper are shown as man and wife. All details for her are correct, everything except the sur-name is correct for him. Four children were born in 1854, 1856,1857 and 08/09/1860, all sur-named Cooper, but in the 1861 census they all appear as Nicholls. The mother used her married sister's name of Carr as her maiden name in each registration of births. The couple went on to have five more children.

An earlier marriage for Richard Nicholls and the death of this spouse about the time of the fourth birth seems the most likely explanation. Pity that I didn't pursue the suggestion of the unlikely 1845 marriage at the time.

Thanks for your interest, FredP.

[Jane M]

Hi Fred,
Can you give me the census details, 1851 & 1861, that you refer to, so that I can check them myself? On the surface it looks like you're looking at two different couples, that's why I want to check. Sometimes, someone outside the problem can see more clearly

Jane

[FredP]

Thank you for yout continued interest, Jane.

I realise it's hard to believe, but this is my conclusion after a long and difficult search and consulting with the couple's g-grandson.

My g-farher's cousin FRANCES HARRIET COOPER was christened in Shifnal 05/05/1826. I knew from her brother HENRY SAMUEL COOPER's will that she became Mrs NICHOLLS. In 1841 she and her brother and her sister,s future husband JOHN CARR were living with her uncle GEORGE BUCKNALL PICKEN at 29 Crosby Row, Walworth Road, Newington - no reference available.

On 09/03/1846 she signed as FANNY as witness ro her sister EMILY CAUSER COOPER's marriage to JOHN CARR. The CARRS went to Australia in 1849.

The only FANNY or FRANCES COOPER that matches in the 1851 census is

HO107/1566 - f 115 - p 29 - (144) 69 Great Bland Street, Newington Trinity. RICHARD COOPER, 23, Clerk in Warehouse, b Kennington . BUCKNALL PICKEN at 29 Crosby Row, Walworth Road, Newington - no reference available.

On 09/03/1846 she signed as FANNY as witness ro her sister EMILY CAUSER COOPER's marriage to JOHN CARR. The CARRS went to Australia in 1849.

The only FANNY or FRANCES COOPER that matches in the 1851 census is

HO107/1566 - f 115 - p 29 - (144) 69 Great Bland Street, Newington Trinity. RICHARD COOPER, 23, Clerk in Warehouse, b Kennington

FANNY COOPER, 25, wife, b Shiffnal, Shrpshire

I have found no marriage with a RICHARD COOPER.

Will continue later, FredP.

[FredP]

Sorry for the duplication in the last posting, which I was trying to avaoid.

The births of the 4 eldest children were registered as follows -
MARY EMILY COOPER, b 10/05/1854, 4 Lawson St, Newington, mother FRANCES HARRIET COOPER formerly CARR, father RICHARD COOPER, Mercantile Clerk.

ELLEN JULIA COOPER, b 18/07/1856, 5 Frederick Place, Southwark, parents details the same except father now 'Manchester Warehouseman' (The g-grand son cobnfirms the interst of the NICHOLLS family in Manchester Warehousing).

ELIZA JANE COOPER, b 4th quarter 1857, St George, Souithwark 1 d 121.
CP style="MARGIN: 0px"> </P>ELLEN JULIA COOPER, b 18/07/1856, 5 Frederick Place, Southwark, parents details the same except father now 'Manchester Warehouseman' (The g-grand son cobnfirms the interst of the NICHOLLS family in Manchester Warehousing).

ELIZA JANE COOPER, b 4th quarter 1857, St George, Souithwark 1 d 121.

KATE FLORENCE NICHOLLS COOPER, b 08/06/1860, mother FRANCES HARRIET COOPER, no father's name given, at 5 Clarendon Villas, Bridge Road, Hammersmith.

The 1861 census is - RG09/25 - fol 36 - p 27 - (154) 5 Clarendon Villas, Bridge Road, Hammersmith, Kensington.

[FredP]

Of course it happened again, and this time cut off before the end.

Derails of the 1861 census are - RG09/25 - fol 36 - p 27 - (154) 5 Clarendon Villas, Bridge Road, Hammersmith, Kensington.
FRANCES H NICHOLLS, Head, m, 33, Merchant's Wife, B Shiffnall, Shropshire
MARY EMILY NICHOLLS, 7, daughter, b Newington, Surrey
ELLEN JULIA NICHOLLS, 5, b St George's, Surrey
ELIZA JANE NICHOLLS, 4, b St George's, Surrey
KATE FLORENCE NICHOLLS, 10 months, B Hammersmith, Middlesex.

The authentic R"MARGIN: 0px">MARY EMILY NICHOLLS, 7, daughter, b Newington, Surrey
ELLEN JULIA NICHOLLS, 5, b St George's, Surrey
ELIZA JANE NICHOLLS, 4, b St George's, Surrey
KATE FLORENCE NICHOLLS, 10 months, B Hammersmith, Middlesex.

The authentic RICHARD JAMES NICHOLLS has not been found so far on either the 1851 or 1861 census.

In 1871 he, wife and nine children are to be found at RG10/849 - Fol 56 - p 20,
(88) 8 Grecian Cottages, Crown Hill, Croydon.

In later years it was called Beulah Hill.ICHARD JAMES NICHOLLS has not been found so far on either the 1851 or 1861 census.

In 1871 he, wife and nine children are to be found at RG10/849 - Fol 56 - p 20,
(88) 8 Grecian Cottages, Crown Hill, Croydon.

In later years it was called Beulah Hill.

Hope you can make head and tail of all this,
Best wishes, FredP.

[Jane M]

Hi Fred,
Found Richard in 1861
Saltershill? Bloomfield, Norwood, Lambeth RG9/367/36/1

Nathaniel NICHOLS H mar 65 Gen. merchant b. Stanhope, Buckinghamshire
Elizabeth 63 b. Lambeth, Sry
William B. Nichols son mar 40 Gen. merchant b. Southwark, Sry
Alan P. Nichols son unm 35 ditto b. Kennington, Sry
RICHARD J. NICHOLS son mar 33 ditto ditto
John B. Nichols son unm 28 ditto
Jane Nichols wife 28 Son's wife b. Australia
Rosa E. Nichols g.dau 7 b. Stockport, Cheshire
Jane M Nichols g.dau 5 b. Brixton, Sry
Sarah Clarke serv. unm 40 needle woman b. Essex
Rachel Fordham serv. unm 28 House serv. b. Cambridgeshire
George Godhard serv. unm 19 groom b. Surrey.

I would think the family had gathered to either spend time with their son & grandchildren back from Oz or one of the parents was in ill health.

Judging from what you were saying I think it's highly likely that Frances & Richard did not marry until 1860 but lived together, hence the childrens birth registrations were in her maiden name.
Do you have a date for when her brother's will was WRITTEN refering to her as Mrs. Nicholls.




I would think t/P>Jane M Nichols g.dau 5 b. Brixton, Sry
Sarah Clarke serv. unm 40 needle woman b. Essex
Rachel Fordham serv. unm 28 House serv. b. Cambridgeshire
George Godhard serv. unm 19 groom b. Surrey.

I would think the family had gathered to either spend time with their son & grandchildren back from Oz or one of the parents was in ill health.

Judging from what you were saying I think it's highly likely that Frances & Richard did not marry until 1860 but lived together, hence the childrens birth registrations were in her maiden name.
Do you have a date for when her brother's will was WRITTEN refering to her as Mrs. Nicholls.


I would think the family had gathered to either spend time with their son & grandchildren back from Oz or one of the parents was in ill health.

Judging from what you were saying I think it's highly likely that Frances & Richard did not marry until 1860 but lived together, hence the childrens birth registrations were in her maiden name.
Do you have a date for when her brother's will was WRITTEN refering to her as Mrs. Nicholls.


The 1851 census refering to a Richard Cooper could have been an enumerators error as all the other details appear to be the Richard James Nicholls.

Jane PS. Gremlins do seem to creep in after you've posted a message. I've made edits to this twice so I hope everything is ok.

[FredP]

Thank you very much Jane. This is definitely him. I am sure I tried varatione on the sur-name and still didn't find him.
Nor had my contact in the family found either father or son, We knew about the other son John, but not the one married to an Australian, though he knew there was some Australian and West Indian connection. I suggested that like Mr Rochester in Jane Eyre, Richard had a mad wife in the attic.
Are you really in Middle East Jordan, or is this a printing error for Jordans, Bucks?
Anyway, thanks again. We are both going to be very pleased when I pass on the message.
FredP.

[Jane M]

Hi Fred,

Glad that's been of help If you're using Ancestry for census searches & can't find someone, put in all known details but leave out the surname. This works better than the 'wildcard' option. Just go through the list until you spot a likely candidate! You can also do it with a first name especially useful if it's an unusual one.
I had a quick look through FreeBMD thinking that maybe one of the parents might have passed away near to that time, hence the family gathering, but noted that Nathaniel died quite a few years later & nothing close to 1861 was apparent for Elizabeth.
I presume Jane was the wife of Alan P? Thankefully no mad wives in attics!
Yes, that's Jordan in the Middle East

Jane