Inquest reports

[Ladkyis]

I have just received the death certificate of my 3x great grandfather, Samuel NATHAN, of 1 Borough Road, St George the Martyr, Southwark and the cause of death is given as
"effects of blow to his head". The informant is the Coroner.

I wanted to look up the newspaper reports of the inquest to see who or what had given him the blow to his head so I went to the British Library Newspaper Library web site and after reading a lot of instructions found that my first choice of newspaper, the "Jewish Chronicle" is not there for the dates I need - December 1842 - I asked the search thingy for more choice but didn't know which of the 222 it listed would be most likely to have the report.
I then noticed that they have a special research service for family historians so I took a look and they will search four newspapers for the piece I want for the paltry sum of £50.:eek:

If anyone is EVER |bowdown| going to Colindale and would like to do a favour could you contact me please.

Ann

[AnnB]

Hello Ann

I don't know whether this will be of any use to you, but the Jewish Chronicle has a web site
Maybe the Jewish Chronicle has its own archives? :)

Best wishes
Ann

[Ladkyis]

Oh that sounds possible because the date of death on the certificate is given as december 12th but it could be that they attacked him on 7th and he breathed his last on 12th. AND!! my Samuel's age is given as 59 on the death certificate so that looks good too.

How do I see this report please
Ann

[Ladkyis]

This would account for him making his will on 5th December. Well little did I think when I got up this morning that I would have been given this information by the end of the day.

I will see if the Reference library has access to the times digital archives or whether I have to grab someone with access to the university of Wales campus. Thank you so much for taking the time to give me this information I am so excited about this!
Ann|woohoo|

[Ladkyis]

ok I have had a little dance down the hall made a cuppa and had a bit of a think and now I would love to see the 1841 census details for 1 borough road St George the martyr, Southwark. just to see who else was living at home at the time.

This is 4 years before my 2x great grandfather married and I am still in the fog about any other children.
Samuel NATHAN married Hannah Mendes in 1808 so there could be other children than John and the sister (whose name totally escapes me) who was with their mother when she died in Doctor's Commons twenty years later.

I feel like the robot in the film "short circuit" I need input, more input!

Ann

[Ladkyis]

I have the Times Report! |jumphappy and it is soooo interesting.|woohoo| Samuel NATHAN was attacked at Foster's Sale room Pall Mall :eek: by Richard MOUNTAIN age 33, Thomas RASON, 40, and William DAVEY 43.

MOUNTAIN struck Samuel "a tremendous blow across the left eye which knocked him down..."

that was on 23rd November when he knew he was dying (he passed two weeks after the attack) Samuel made his will and also made a statement.

MOUNTAIN said that Samuel had accused him of "un-natural practices" and he confronted him whereupon Samuel had repeated the accusation.so MOUNTAIN hit him and then kicked him on the ground
Witnesses called by the prosecution denied that Samuel had said these things but witnesses called for the accused confirmed that he had said them.
The three were found guilty and Mr Baron Gurney sentenced them to be "severally imprisoned and kept to hard labour for six months"
the mentions that Samuel had "sons" so that means John NATHAN had at least one brother, so I am now working out how to find them - I wonder where he is buried?|idea|

[Peter Goodey]

Glad you've got it.


For anyone else's interest, many libraries - if they don't have the Times Digital Archive - will have the Times on microfilm. Microfilm is fine if you've got an approximate date (but not very clever if you haven't!)

[Niceday]

I've been lurking for a while and this is my first post, but having read this thread I just *had* to say 'woohoo, go Ann!' What a great result. Dancing down the hall is the sort of thing I would do.

Best Wishes,
Bren.

[AnnB]

That's brilliant Ann. Isn't it amazing how we get excited over the most bizarre things :o No wonder so many people think we must be mad |laugh1|

Best wishes
Ann

[Ladkyis]

I have been having a serious look at the report and the thing I keep turning over in my mind is that the three men were found guilty of "Feloniously killing and slaying Samuel NATHAN..." but the Jury "recommended them to mercy". Mr Baron Gurney sentenced them "to be severally imprisoned and kept to hard labour in the House of Correction for six months"

and that's what amazes me, they killed Samuel and got six months hard labour at a time when children were being transported for stealing a handkerchief. I can only surmise that as this date (December 1842) is just four years after Charles Dickens wrote Oliver Twist, and he was considered to be very accurate about the attitudes and morals of the time, that they didn't get six months hard labour for killing a picture dealer they got it for killing a Jew.
The stereotypical image being Fagin, I think I understand the how and why the sentence was as it was.

I found myself getting very angry about the sentence because they are MY ancestors! and I don't care what they were or who they were, |rant| how dare anyone treat my family this way! I calmed down a bit after but GOSH this hobby makes you think sometimes doesn't it!|oopsredfa

[DebbieAnn]

I went to the Archives at the Jewish Public Library here in Montreal to see if they had the December 1842 Jewish Chronicle on microfilm. Unfortunately, the archives are not available for the next few weeks, as a wall had to be knocked out and replaced, and everything is under a tarp with no one allowed to access the files until the work is finished. If you still haven't gotten a copy by then I'll go back and have a look to see if that gives more detailed information...

In the meantime, if you can find the synagogue he was connected with, they may have a record of all of his children's names. If he was buried in a Jewish cemetery, the location of the plot should reveal which synagogue he was a member of (many synagogues may share a cemetery, but each has its own section). Or the synagogue may be mentioned in the JC account of his death...

If he was Orthodox, it's a safe bet his shul was within walking distance of his residence. If you know where he lived when he died (the 1841 census should be of some help), you can find the closest synagogue, then locate the cemetery they use, and check to see if he was buried there. Or the synagogue may have him in their records. But that's a direction for you to start in, anyway...

Debbie

[DebbieAnn]

Or, try contacting:

London Beth Din
Court of the Chief Rabbi
Adler House
735 High Road
North Finchley
London N12 0US
Tel: 0181 343 6270
Fax: 0181 343 6257

They will do searches for a fee, and give free estimates. If you want to find a synagogue near where Samuel lived in Southwark, they can tell you what existed there back then and what cemetery he was likely buried in. Do you know if he was Ashkenazi or Sephardic? Reform or Orthodox? If not, it will take a bit longer to do a search...

Debbie

[Ladkyis]

I know he was married in the Great Synagogue in London in 1808. His Son John married there in 1845.

I know that Samuel's wife Hannah was Sephardi because it says so in the marriage thingy - I have a copy of Angela Shire's book of transcriptions.

I don't know where he was buried - Samuel I mean - I now know he was murdered, oops sorry "feloniously killed and slayed" and I think I will have to look to local Southwark newspapers for information about the inquest. I have written but not yet sent my enquiry to the Local Studies Library in Southwark because they have been helpful before.
Ann

[DebbieAnn]

You might be interested in this:

http://www.jewishgen.org/JCR-UK/susser/roth/index.htm

It has a wonderful picture!

Debbie

[DebbieAnn]

Just discovered the marriages of the Great Synagogue are on microfilm at the Mormon Family History Library!! The reel for 1791-1865 is: reel 0094666. This should have Samuel's and John's marriages, and possibly other Nathan siblings!!

Also found this

"Marriage Authorisations were also granted by the Jewish Authorities (from c.1845) to give permission to the local Rabbi to conduct the marriage ceremony. The Marriage Authorisation usually gives:

* The proposed place and date of marriage
* The Hebrew and English names of the bride and groom
* Their address
* Their country of origin
* The names of the bride's father and groom's father
* An indication of how the couple were proved to be Jewish
* The names of the groom's unmarried brothers and which ones intend to attend the marriage ceremony.

If the Synagogue was part of the United Synagogue (Group) then the records are held by the London Beth Din. Contact Beth Din, United Synagogue, 735 High Road, North Finchley, London, N12 0US."

If you can find the Marriage Authorization for John's marriage at the London Beit Din, it may list the names of his brother(s)!

Debbie

[Ladkyis]

Thanks Debbie,

I am a member of the Jewish Genealogical Society of great Britain and I have used the databases available to members several times. I will follow up on some of the avenues suggested when I get chance, this seems to be my week for things to happen. On Tuesday evening I watched a TV programme about the Town of Monmouth and suddenly there was about 5 seconds of archive film of my father talking about whether Monmouthshire was Welsh or English. My dad died two years ago and he gave the interview way back in the 1960s so it was wonderful to see him suddenly appear on my TV screen. then thanks to the kindness of Mythology - a forum regular - I have an address for my great great grandmother in a different line and the possibility of learning a little more about her is pulling me in that direction.
I think I should ration my excitement for a while, I might get to expect it |biggrin|

Ann

[DebbieAnn]

I went back to the Montreal Jewish Public Library Archives today to look up the Dec 1842 issue of the (London) Jewish Chronicle only to discover there is a gap in their records. The last available issue for 1842 is for May, and it doesn't start again until 1848. The archivist said that all collections for this publication supplied by the same company (in Woodbury, Connecticut) would have the same gap, which is basically all of the US and Canada. He suggested the records were probably incomplete that were provided for microfilming...

Debbie

[Ladkyis]

That is just about the same gap as in the jewish Chronicle at the British Library Newspaper Library so it would seem that there was a bit of a break - actually, thinking about that I read somewhere that the jewish Chronicle was started by one man and then there was a break and it was restarted by someone else. I am sure he was a relative of the wife of John NATHAN and I have the notes somewhere in a file.

Thank you for looking, Debbie, I really appreciate it. I have since purchased the Surrey CDs from Archive CD Books and found Samuel and Hannah living at 1 Borough Road, Southwark in 1841 with lots of their children even some that the genealogy program I use thinks are too young to be Hannah's children but they are on the 1851 as her children too. I need to investigate.

Ann

[DebbieAnn]

Hmmm... Sarah gave birth late in life... A precedent??

Debbie :D

[Ladkyis]

Hannah is age 50 on the 1841 census and yet we have Anna age 10 Fanny age 8 and Henry age 6. It doesn't give relationships on the 1841 so I went to the 1851 and found Hannah with the three youngest - Hannah age 21, Fanny age 19 and Henry age 16 all listed as the children of Hannah age 65.

I still wonder if the they are the children of one of Hannah's sons and she is bringing them up or if she had the last child when she was around 48. it is not impossible - I could have done that - and she could just have been one of those women that reached menopause very late.

It's interesting though and I will give serious thought to how I can discover more.
Ann

[KatieB]

48 isn't that old, on the data errror report on my softwear all i seem to get is birth occured after mother was 50 and more than 20 years after the parents marrage!
You obviously just come from good fertile stock!