Crow Hall ?

[karenf]

Hello
I wonder if anyone can help me track a location.
i have an ancestor ,Sophia Marshall, who married my gt gt gt gt grandfather in Worksop in 1833.on the 1841 census it states that she was born in the county of Nottinghamshire.In the 1851 census she was, apparently, born in Crow Hall Norfolk and by the 1861 census, she was born in Swaffham Norfolk.
Now i, obviously, know there is a Nottinghamshire and also that there is a Swaffham Norfolk but i cannot find a reference to a place called Crow Hall.
Has anyone heard of it?Is it somewhere close to Swaffham ?
Any help would be appreciated
Karen

[Geoffers]

Rather than give directions, click on http://www.streetmap.co.uk/
enter 'Crow Hall' and search.

The list should show two places marked 'Crow Hall, Norfolk' (I can only think of the two offhand)

One is near Cawston, the other will be a hop skip and jump north of Swaffham, near to West Lexham.

Geoffers

[karenf]

thank you Geoffers.
The second Crow Hall would seem to be the more logical place to start looking.
I don't know Norfolk at all but then i didn't know Worksop either until i started on this adventure and now i feel as though i know the streets of Worksop(Victorian Worksop) as well as i know the streets where i live.
Karen

[Geoffers]

Out of general interest, I had search and found a couple more Crow Halls of which I wasn't previosuly aware. Nice to find new stuff. These are even further away from Swaffham than Cawston, but I thought you should know of them in case they turn out to be relevant. The additional two Crow Halls being at Denver (near Burnham Market, away over in the west of the county - and at Burnham market (up on the north coast).

I wonder if Sophia Marshall's mum was in service at Crow Hall and maybe had the child in Swaffham, or deposited her there with family to avoid losing a job?

Geoffers

[karenf]

Thank you once again Geoffers.
An interesting point about the unmarried mother.My mind had been working on the fact Crow Hall was a village not a residence.thank you for taking my blinkers off.
now i only have to talk my husband into a romantic few days in Norfolk.This may prove difficult as I'm still trying to sell him on the idea that Worksop is an ideal place for a few days break.
karen

[Geoffers]

Crow Hall, West Lexham will show up on maps and aerial photos, see http://www.old-maps.co.uk/
click on 'county gazetteer' then 'N' and 'Norfolk', then 'W' and 'West Lexham'

You get a thumbnail, image of an 1880's map displayed, look to the bottom of the screen and there are several buttons, 'enlarge view', 'moden map, 'aerial photo'. Crow Hall is marked on the map just north of the word 'Lexham'.

One other pasing thought, does the census entry definitely read Crow Hall and not Crowshill (part of Shipdham)?


now i only have to talk my husband into a romantic few days in Norfolk.This may prove difficult as I'm still trying to sell him on the idea that Worksop is an ideal place for a few days break.
Worksop would make the ideal stop off on the way to Norfolk :)

[karenf]

Geoffers
I will try to add the scan as an attachment in this post.I am fairly sure that it says Crow Hall.
Her name is Sophia Gabbitass.

As to using Worksop as a stop off point to Norfolk..It may work.
Karen

[Geoffers]

I've had a browse of the 1851 census transcript to see if Sophia MARSHALL may have had any family born or living in and around Swaffham. Unfortunately no trace. There are a few entries for East Rudham, a little to the north of West Lexham:

HO107/1827 f573 p28
Broomsthorpe Farm, East Rudham
John MARSHALL, servt, unm, 19, ag.lab, bn West Rudham

HO107/1827 f561 p4
Back St, East Rudham
Robert DAVEY, hd, mar, 32, ag.lab, bn East Rudham
Mary DAVEY, wf, mar, 29, bn East Rudham
George DAVEY, son, 4, bn East Rudham
Thomas DAVEY, son, 2, bn East RUDHAM
Maryann MARSHALL (DAVEY), natural dau, 9, bn East Rudham
William MARSHALL (DAVEY), natural son, 5, bn East Rudham
continued.......

[Geoffers]

part 2......
John Marshall and Mary Davey (presumably nee Marshall) are of an age where they might by siblings to Sophia's mum - or from the following generation. But on account of East + West Rudham not being far away, they may be worth checking for other Marshall entries in the registers.

The nearest larger grouping of Marshalls is around Lynn, Wiggenhall, Terrington - that sort of area in the west of the county. None around Shipdham.

Rudham, West Lexham and Swaffham are all on old coaching roads running west-east from Lynn to Norwich - and - there was a coaching road running south from Wells which passed Crow Hall and went through Swaffham.

continued....

[Geoffers]

part 3.....
So, a hypothetical possibility - maybe the Marshall family originated in the Lynn area, some moved out to East Rudham for work. Maybe Sophia's mum moved out to the Rudhams as well, or was born there? Or, maybe she moved out from Lynn to work in Lexham? Either way, at least with the roads, there was opportunity for them to do this.

Maybe Sophia's mum was in service and wanted to hide the birth of a baby to avoid being sacked? Could she have had Sophia baptised in a parish next to Wext Lexham, say Newton? Newton was in the same Hundred as Swaffham and so maybe Sophia was taken to the workhouse at Swaffham, or to a family who took her in?

This is all very, very speculative, but I often think it helps to start with an idea and to then try to disprove it. I find this gets me thinking of alternative ways to move research forward.

continued.....

[Geoffers]

part 4......
So, when you con your husband into a romantic holiday in Norfolk; it might be worth holding hands whilst browsing records for East + West Rudham, to gaze longingly into the registers for Newton and West Lexham - and maybe imagine a candlelit dinner whilst checking the surviving workhouse and bastardy records for Swaffham - and all to the strains of sweet music - aaaaaahhhhh |nopity|

As a passing thought, did any other Norfolk Marshalls move up to Notts too? Are there any Norfolk born Marshalls in the 1851/1861 census returns? Were there any Marshall witnesses to the marriage?

continued....

[Geoffers]

part 5....
I've just been looking at variant spellings of Marhsall in the 1851 Norfolk census and there are quite a few around the Rudhams, so this looks encouraging that your Sophia's mum may have originally come from there, the entries read:

HO107/1826 f110 p34

Fakenham
John D. MARSHELL, Head, Mar, 27, Grocer (Emp 3 Men), Fakenham
Henriette MARSHELL, Wife, Mar, 26, , Acle
Henriette MARSHELL, Daur, , 8, , Fakenham
Mary A. GODDARD, Vist, Unm, 25, Annuitant, Norwich
Mary A. HORSLEY, Vist, Unm, 28, Dressmaker, Fakenham
Alfred CARROWAY, Asst, Unm, 18, Grocer Assistant, Fakenham
Edgar SMITH, Asst, Unm, 16, Grocer Assistant, Shaddingfield,Suff
Maria MORGAN, Serv, Unm, 14, Servant, Fakenham
continued.....

[Geoffers]

part 6....
HO107/1827 f580 p6
Lynn Road, West Rudham
Robert MARSHELL, Head, Mar, 55, Farm Lab, Burnham
Ann MARSHELL, Wife, Mar, 53, , East Rudham
Robert MARSHELL, Son, Unm, 19, Farm Lab, East Rudham
Benjamin MARSHELL, Son, Unm, 17, Farm Lab, East Rudham
Elizabeth MARSHELL, Daur, , 11, Schl, East Rudham

HO107/1827 f585 p17
Pockthorpe, West Rudham
James MARSHELL, Head, M, 37, Farm Lab, West Rudham
Mary MARSHELL, Wife, M, 27, , Westnewton
James MARSHELL, Son, , 9, Schl, Westnewton
Ann MARSHELL, Daur, , 5, Schl, West Rudham
Hannah MARSHELL, Daur, , 10, , West Rudham
continued.....

[Geoffers]

part 7.....
and finally
HO107/1827 f584 p15
Harpley Road, West Rudham
Benjamin MARSHELL, Head, M, 37, Farm Lab, West Rudham
Mary MARSHELL, Wife, M, 36, , Houghton New
Henry MARSHELL, Son, , 10, Cow Keeper, West Rudham
James MARSHELL, Son, , 9, Cow Keeper, North Creak
Susan MARSHELL, Daur, , 7, Schl, East Rudham
George MARSHELL, Son, , 5, Schl, West Rudham
Thomas MARSHELL, Son, , 1, , West Rudham

So as you know, East and West Rudham are about 5 miles North of West Lexham; which maybe a useful place to look further once you have found the identity of Sophia's parent(s).

But I must apologise because I've been digressing from your original simple query; sorry.
Geoffers

[Pam Downes]

Hi Karen,
If you have the 1851 census reference I can look at the original page to give a second opinion as to the birthplace.
Pam Downes

[karenf]

HI Geoffers and Pam
The file i have of the 1851 census is too large, apparently, to upload here.
The piece :2122
folio:164
page:2
Worksop.
Or maybe i could email the jpeg to you.
I just loved the violinist, Geoffers, but what do you mean con my husband????
I have traced an older sibling of Sophia's, who was born in Worksop.Still no parents though.So maybe the parents went for a romantic weekend in Norfolk too.
The only reference i have for Henry and Sophia's marriage was on the LDS site.So i am unsure whether it would be worthwhile even seeing their microfiche copy.Although for all it costs I'm sure there would be no harm in looking.Even if it could give me a hint to the parents name.
I tried looking on the ancestry.co.uk site but again nothing.On the 1871 Census Henry and Sophia's daughter, also Sophia, was recorded as being born in Worcester Nottinghamshire.Although the original copy clearly reads Worksop.I fear that i would have had a very long hard search looking for a county within a county.
frustrated
Karen

[Geoffers]

The file i have of the 1851 census is too large, apparently, to upload here. Or maybe i could email the jpeg to you.
By all means click on my name and selct to send me an e-mail.


Geoffers, but what do you mean con my husband????
'twas just the way that you said you were trying to sell him on the idea - if selling him teh idea doesn't work, resort to thumbscrews (my wife is experrt in their use).


I have traced an older sibling of Sophia's, who was born in Worksop......The only reference i have for Henry and Sophia's marriage was on the LDS site.
Interesting that the older sibling was born in Notts - I wonder if there were any others around the country?

continued.....

[Geoffers]

part 2.....

If the only reference is the IGI, you do need to look at the original entry. This will not only confirm the detail, but will tell you if the marriage was by licence/banns, whether bride and groom were minors, single or widowed, possibly a place name other than 'of this parish', whether they signed their names or made marks, and who the witnesses were. Many County Record Offices will provide copies of records for a small fee. I've purchased loads of fiches from Norfolk to help me continue my research from home; and I've found them immensely helpful.

continued.....

[Geoffers]

part 3......

In view of your MARSHALL family moving about from Notts to Norfolk, the following entry from the 1851 census may be worth bearing in mind; although it might just be coincidence that the famring pupil's surname is Marshall.

1851 census
HO1071825 f398 p17
W Lexham Farm, West Lexham
Eliza LEEDS, wf (head), mar, 34, farmer 480 acres, employ 34 labrs, bn Whitwell
Robert Beverley LEEDS, son, unm, 5, bn Witchingham
Julia Mary LEEDS, dau, unm, 3, bn Witchingham
Frederick MARSHALL, visitor, unm, 20, farming pupil, bn Blackheath, Kent
(there are then several visitors and servants)


On the 1871 Census Henry and Sophia's daughter, also Sophia, was recorded as being born in Worcester Nottinghamshire.Although the original copy clearly reads Worksop.This is the value of checking original records; indexes are only as good as the indexer.

Geoffers

[Pam Downes]

Hi Karen,
I only wanted the census ref because I have access to the census.
It does say Crow Hall, with a capital H for Hall. However I notice that the enumerator does very fancy Hs, so is it possible that he misread a small s and h in Crowshill for one of his fancy Hs when he came to write up his page?
The IGI marriage entry has been extracted from the Worksop BTs but, like you, I don't think that it will give any further clues except........it might be interesting to see the marriage entry to see who the witnesses were.
I had a look on the 1851 for any more Marshalls born Norfolk, living Nottinghamshire. There's a Thomas born c1805 says Lexham, living in Carlton in Lindrick which is not a million miles away from Worksop. In 1861, Tom still says he's from 'Lexom' (sic). Even more interesting is that in 1851 Tom says his eldest son, John aged 15, was born in Worksop. Annoyingly the only entry I can find in Worksop IGI with parents Thomas and Sarah is a Thomas in 1839. I wanted to find a baptism with Thomas and Sarah as the parents proving that Tom senior was definitely in Notts before Sophia got married. Think Thomas junior must have died because there's another Thomas baptised in Carlton in 1843 which would tie in with the one on the 1851 census.
Do you think it would be worth investigating the marriage of Thomas and Sarah (was Sophia a witness?) ?

Pam Downes

[Pam Downes]

part 4......
As a passing thought, did any other Norfolk Marshalls move up to Notts too? Are there any Norfolk born Marshalls in the 1851/1861 census returns? Were there any Marshall witnesses to the marriage?
I swear that I hadn't read this bit before I posted my message :)
And there I was thinking I'd been so clever with some lateral thinking...
Pam Downes

[jsaun]

I have just come across this site & saw your problem with Crow Hall in the Swaffham area. There is an area near Shipdham in Norfolk called Crows Hill, which has an Old Hall. I wondered if there was a possibility of a wrong transcription. Shipdham itself is only about 8 miles away from Swaffham.
You can find area in old-maps.co.uk.
Place name Shipdham
Move map down with south arrow twice
Click just outside lefthand corner of pink square
You should have the area
On a modern day map it is on the road from Shipdham to Watton

[Generalwilde]

My GGG Grandfather is also the one who married Sophia Marshall and I am trying to find out more about her parents and relations without little success so far.

I would appreciate any help. I know that she:

Lived at East Gate Corn Centre Bassetlaw Worksop at time of 1841 census.
Lived at Lock Lane Worksop Notts at time of 1851 census.
Lived as a lodger at 12 Carlton Road Worksop at time of 1861 census.
Lived at 28 Sand Hill Worksop at time of 1871 census.

Was widowed in 1858 when Henry died.

But nothing of her before she married Henry.

DenisW

[Teddybear]

Crow Hall is a farm, not a village. It is in the middle of no-where now but, was on the main Lynn-Norwich road.

I would think that, if she were baptised here, it would have been in West Lexham as the Church there is closer than the one in East Lexham. (Both of these Churches have the lovely East Anglian Round Towers!

If you need any help in Norfolk, please feel free to contact me, I do research in the NRO etc.

Teddy

[Johnny Norfolk]

Crow Hall is situated on the Lexham Hall estate ( a few miles north of Swaffham. It is cleraly marked on the OS map 238 ref 845182