Looking up at National Archives

[Sandra Parker]

I'm not sure what asking someone to look up archives really entails. My grandfather was a coastguard from C1870+ to C1905+. I have found over 20 references to coastguard in the ADM series, I have all the exact numbers. I would appreciate someone explaining whether it is reasonable to ask someone to look up one or two references, or is it straightforward looking up more if the archives people have all the correct series numbers, eg ADM/6841?

[Sandra Parker]

I really am just trying to find out more about the coast guard record of George Henry Barton, I have his census details for 1881,1891 and 1901, so I know where he was on those dates.
I know there are people who are willing to search, when they happen to be at the NA, but I would not like to ask anyone to do anything the least bit unreasonable.
Unfortunately not in a position to go myself, or pay for lots of lookups out of limited income.
Sandra
Darwin, Australia

[Mythology]

"I'm not sure what asking someone to look up archives really entails."

That depends on the nature of the records. If you are lucky, and someone who is familiar with them (which I'm not), and knows that it will not take all day, is going, you *may* get an offer, but I wouldn't bank on it.

The problem with many things at the National Archives is that if you have not already dealt with those particular records and know what the score is, you can easily come unstuck and find you've taken on more than you intended.

Let us take the simple case of a soldier's service record - my gt-gt-grandmother's brother - my very first venture into army records, when I knew absolutely nothing of what was involved with them.

From an adult baptism record and his marriage record, I knew he was in the 44th Foot in 1866 but had left the army by 1868. A friend who was in contact with someone compiling a Medal Roll for the 2nd China War told me that he was listed, and thought that the info would have come from his service record, so this had evidently been kept. I was informed that the only reason the army kept a service record was if the person got a pension, therefore there should be a pension record too. So, a visit was obviously worthwhile.

This was my first visit since the move to Kew, and I was impressed with the great improvement in facilities compared with the old office in central London - it looked as if I shouldn't have any problems. Furthermore, I had the advantage of knowing his regiment (essential for that period, there's no alphabetical name index) - it sounds easy, doesn't it?

(continues)

[Mythology]

(continued)

I order WO97/1525, and wait about half an hour for it to be brought out. I am presented with a box about four inches deep, containing individual files which are supposedly in alphabetical order.
He isn't where he should be, so I go through the lot on the basis that there is a very good chance that some careless person will have put things back in the wrong place.
He isn't there.
I scratch my head, take another look at the info leaflet on these records and realise that I should have also ordered WO97/6357, the misfiled papers, so I order that and wait half an hour for it to be brought out. Not twiddling my thumbs though, because I've also ordered some of the regimental musters, working backwards from 1866, so I'm going through them in the meantime and extracting loads of stuff.
WO97/6357 arrives and I plough through yet another box of papers.
Hooray! Got him.
From the service record, I find that although I have him as being in the 44th in 1866, he'd originally joined the 69th in 1858 and transferred in 1860, which means that another order that I've put in for more of the musters is partly useless and I need to order the ones for the 69th instead.
There's a limit to how many things you can order, a limit to how late you can order stuff and, having foolishly assumed that I'd be able to sort it all out in an afternoon, I'm running out of time, so I decide to concentrate on these musters and leave the pension stuff until another day.

When I did go back, there was then a further complication with the pension record, partly due to the army apparently not knowing where to file an odd one (he only did a ten year term, wouldn't normally have got a pension, but was awarded a "Special Campaign Pension" in 1909) and partly due to duff information on the PRO leaflet so, all in all, it took me about three times the amount of time I'd expected to get what I wanted.

(continues)

[Mythology]

(continued)

Oh - then there's the records of either Inland Revenue or Customs, can't remember which it was now, which I agreed to look up for a friend because, she said "It's indexed according to the catalogue, so it should be easy."
Errr .... yes, it's "indexed".
The "index" consists of about four lines on the first page telling you that all the top brass are on pages 1 to 30 and all the rest on pages 31 to 250, or something along those lines.
They listed not by name, but by the date they joined the service, which she had no idea of - that's precisely what she was trying to find out!
And the clerk responsible for keeping the pensions stuff up to date had helpfully crossed the names out when they died with the thickest crayon imaginable, making many of them almost impossible to read.

So, as I am not familiar with Coastguard stuff, sorry and all that, but I'm afraid I won't be volunteering for this one, and can only wish you luck in finding someone who *does* know what's involved with these records and can assess whether or not it's something that they can fit in.

While it is true that there are a few rip-off merchants around, part of the reason that even reputable professonal researchers' fees for research at Kew may appear to be a little high to you is that very few things there can be done easily and/or quickly - whatever the leaflet says, there's usually a snag somewhere.

[Chasing Caseys]

My apologies for butting in on this post but its really put me off going now :eek: I had planned to go this week. Does ordering what want in advance make a difference to the waiting time ?

[Geoffers]

There seem to be lots of records relating to Coastguards at TNA; and those that are listed on the Research Guide:
http://www.catalogue.nationalarchives.gov.uk/RdLeaflet.asp?sLeafletID=54
are not difficult to use, if you can find someone going there. If you're hoping to find a specific record of service though, there may be a problem.

continued......

[Geoffers]

part 2......

The above research guide states:
"Discharge records for 1858-1868 are in ADM 175/102 . Many people from the Bengal Marine entered the Coastguard after 1856, when the East India Company gave up its navy. Between 1866 and 1886 there is an unexplained gap in the records. For Coastguard officers, 1886 to 1947, there are indexed Service Registers (ADM 175/103 to ADM 175/107 , 109-111). For Coastguard ratings, 1900-1923, there are service record cards (ADM 175/82A to ADM 175/84B , alphabetical, 1900-1923; ADM 175/85 to ADM 175/89 , with an index in ADM 175/108 , 1919-1923; and ADM 175/90 , 1919-1923)"

So, if your chap was an officer there may be something worth hunting - but if he was not an officer, there seems to be a gap in records from 1866 to about 1900.
Geoffers

[Geoffers]

My apologies for butting in on this post but its really put me off going now !:eek: I had planned to go this week. Does ordering what want in advance make a difference to the waiting time ?
'Tis many years since I was there, but if you order in advance the document should be waiting. Don't be too put off Tracey - if I remember rightly, you'll be looking for specific documents which have the full class/piece number on TNA's catalogue. If this is the case, then the documents should be easily ordered/located.

If you have any watiing time (20-30 minutes) for documents, go with a specific plan as to other things you can do whilst waiting. On a first visit, I'd recommend going around the open shelves and into the various bits of the building to see what is kept where. Getting used to a record office and how it's organised will save time in future. If you have anyone who served in the Navy/Army, take along a note of their details (Dates, Ships/Postings etc) and use the time to look up, for example, the ship and its details; se the medal rolls from WW1, whatever - but have specific goals.
Good luck
Geoffers

[Chasing Caseys]

Hello Geoffers

Thanks for your always reassuring words. After all the hard work you put in time wise helping me it would be a waste of that time not to go. I have to admit i am a bit nervous of unfamiliar surroundings but not too shy to nose around ! and will post what i find.

[Terry]

Well, that really does cheer me up:( Having just found my gt grandfather in the 1861 census in the navy on a ship in Port Royal Jamaica, in 1871 census he was still in the navy but was at home with his family in Plymouth, and knowing from the 1881 census that he then became a coastguard in Lincolnshire, and knowing that he died between 1886(his last child was born in 1887 in Saltfleet) and 1901 census when his wife and children were back in Plymouth. I was hoping to find some sort of records for him.|banghead|
From the 1881 census I can track him around by the birth of his children
1873 to 79 in Fosdyke
1880 in Saltfleet
1881 in Skidbrook
1887 in Saltfleet
My other problem is that at that time the family appears to have been Catholic.(at least his marriage in Plymouth was at the RC church in Plymouth)

[Mythology]

There is an awful lot of very useful stuff at Kew, and the last thing I want to do is to put anyone off going there - just be prepared for things to take longer than you thought unless it's really something dead simple, and don't expect to necessarily find all the answers in one visit.

I'd agree with Geoffers, get used to the place and get used to the system. If you try and rush things, you will probably miss something, and it could be the very thing you're looking for. I have, for instance, known people miss things is the well-known "burnt records" because they assumed that the first catalogue reference they came across was the *only* relevant reference, didn't read through the explanations properly and consequently missed the bit that says "Files discovered out of alphabetical sequence (after their correct place has been filmed) have been filmed and placed at the end of the series."

Ordering in advance will save you a bit of waiting, but personally I don't bother. In rather the same way that Geoffers suggests for those on a first visit, I like to mooch around and see what's new since since I was last there anyway, or maybe use the waiting time for doing a few look-ups of things that are on film, or having a look around the library.

With any record office, I tend to take the view that "it takes as long as it takes" rather than specifically aiming to get items (a), (b) and (c) on my long list done on a particular day, and with Kew I certainly wouldn't set any targets.

It is well and truly worth visiting, and if you are used to the average English county record office you should not find it too much of a shock. If you have grown up largely with the internet though, and are used to having everything indexed by *name*, be prepared to slow down and step back twenty years!
:D