Norwich PR's - suggestions please.

[Linda]

I need to trawl through Norwich Parish registers, looking for a baptism for my great grandfather, apparently born in Norwich (from 1891 census) somewhere between 1855 to 1859 (from ages on 1891 census, marriage cert and death cert).

Visiting the Norfolk Records Office is out of the question (I live in Canada) but I do have access to a LDS Family History Centre.

When I searched the LDS online library for Norwich Church Records and Church Record Indexes I received 278 results! - Archdeacon's transcripts, parish registers for C of E, parish register transcripts, church records for non-conformists, parish chest materials, etc. The indexes are mostly listed as "Computer printouts" and "Parish register printouts"

My feeling is that I should start with the C of E Parish Registers, beginning at the top of the list and working through. I was going to leave this as a retirement project, but considering the number of parishes, films available, and the time and cost to order them, I think I had better start now!

Does anyone have a better idea?

Linda
P.S I have searched GRO indexes and other census indexes with no luck. I also have 1861 census cd's and have searched Norwich as well as some other places, no luck there either.

[Linda]

I should add that I have also searched the Norfolk Transcription Archive, and Norfolk pubs

Linda

[Geoffers]

Since you have a birth c.1855-9, you might try a search of the 1851 census transcript which is on CD-rom ( I can happily do this for you). This would give you a spread of the surname thorughout the city and nearby parishes. If there are clusters of the name in one particular area; you might try those parish registers first.

You might try something similar with the 1881 census, though being 20 years later, the results may be more inaccurate.

Have you tried searching the GRO index of births?

Did the family have an occupation/trade which is likely to show up in directories?

Have you looked at the online surname interest list to see if anyone else is looking for the same name?

What's your chap's name?

Geoffers

[Linda]

Thanks for replying Geoffers.


What's your chap's name?
Did the family have an occupation/trade which is likely to show up in directories?

I purposely left his name off my first message because I didn't want to waste anyone else's time, knowing that the kind members here are likely to go off searching without knowing what I already have. I have already had lots of help from several other well-seasoned researchers (Mythology, Diane, to name a few). I feel as though I am flogging a dead horse, and I'm sure they feel that way too ;)

His name is Thomas HYAM, iron trimmer at the Royal Arsenal in 1891 (he lived in Plumstead, Kent), and he was a scavenger|blush| for the borough of Woolwich, Kent on his death certificate in 1935.

On the marriage cert for Thomas in 1890 (Plumstead, Kent), his father is Charles HYAM, deceased publican. (It's interesting to note that Thomas signed Thos. Hyams in the parish register, although the vicar has written his name as Hyam)

(continued)

[Geoffers]

Just had a quick browse of the 1851 census. No Charles HYAM - have you tried browsing the Norfolk Pubs web-site for him?

However, searching with the spelling HEIGHAM, did bring up one family in Norwich
HO107/1813 f90 p10
Magdalen Street, Norwich St.Saviour
Richard HEIGHAM, Head, M, 47, Brewer, Norwich
Maria HEIGHAM, Wife, M, 45, , Norwich
Thyrza HEIGHAM, Daur, U, 20, , Norwich
Sidney HEIGHAM, Son, U, 19, , Norwich
Edward HEIGHAM, Son, U, 15, , Norwich
Gertrude HEIGHAM, Daur, , 10, , Norwich
Julia HEIGHAM, Daur, , 8, , Norwich
Clement HEIGHAM, Son, , 7, , Norwich
Alfred HEIGHAM, Son, , 5, , Norwich
Rosa HEIGHAM, Daur, , 4, , Norwich
Fanny COLTON, Serv, U, 35, House Servant, Norwich

continued.......

[Geoffers]

part 2......

As you can see Richard was a brewer. This may be adding 2 + 2 to get 5; but I just wonder if it's worth looking at St.Saviour's first?

I've just had a lok at Pigot's Directory of 1830 and cannot see a HYAM / HEIGHAM listed as a publican in the city, also no breweres of the name there. I'll try a couple more directories and see if they give anything useful

Geoffers

[Linda]

Hi Geoffers

Sorry, I really did intend to continue my message, until hubby suggested we take a walk. Then it was time for supper.

Now that we have had our exercise and are well fed.......

I have searched the GRO index for the birth of Thomas, but not for the death of Charles as I don't have an approximate year of death - could be anywhere between 1859 and 1890 :(


Have you looked at the online surname interest listIf you are referring to the one you have created from messages on this forum, yes. I have also posted to other surname forums.

Regarding clusters in censuses, they are often found in Thetford and Kings Lynn. The name is also found in Brandon Suffolk. The 1881 census shows Upwell as being a popular birthplace for this family name and there are loads of HIGHAM/S in Lancashire.

(Continued - honest!)

[Linda]

....

I have spent a lot of time looking through the Norfolk pubs web site but I'm sure I haven't looked at every entry - there are so many. I emailed the web site manager to find out if there is a possibility of searching by publican's name.

Thanks for the time you have spent looking in the 1851 census and directories.

I did search some of the online directores a while ago without any luck, but the search was extremely slow and I think I gave up after several hours (don't tell Mythology, he seems to think I'm patient!).

Re: Richard HEIGHAM that you found - I'll follow up on this family in later censuses and as you suggest perhaps it would be an idea to look in St Saviours PR first.

There's something niggling at me, in the back of my mind, that Thomas was not born in Norwich at all, and possibly not even in England. Isn't there a Norfolk Island, off the coast of Australia? It's probably a drop off point for convicts - oh yeh - there was a Thomas Hyam who was transported to Australia for 7 years, in the 1790's I think.!:eek:

Thanks again for your help Geoffers.

[Mythology]

Linda

With so many of us having been involved in little bits and pieces, I am not entirely sure who has checked what. In particular, I haven't seen our lady of garlic soup fame since she brought the fiche reader over for me, which was quite a while back - though with that stuff, she may have been detained under the Prevention of Terrorism Act.

Just in case he actually is telling the truth and his father really was Charles Hyam, publican, has anyone checked for a will or admon for Charles?

[Geoffers]

If you are referring to the one you have created from messages on this forum, yes. I have also posted to other surname forums.
I was thinking of this list:
http://freespace.virgin.net/isabel.easter/Norfolk/Surnames.htm
although it hasn't been updated for a while, there may be something there for you.

The NFHS has a list of members interests and retains family trees submitted by members - possibly worth checking there? Do check variant spellings though (e.g. HEIGHAM, HIGHAM, HYHAM)

Looking at the surname and its spread in the 1851 and 1881 census returns, one other thought that crossed my mind is that this might be a family who came from London and migrated out to Norfolk, before returning back to the smoke?

Mythology's suggestion about a will/admon is probably something that should be near the top of your list.
Geoffers

[Diane Grant-Salmon]

Just in case he actually is telling the truth and his father really was Charles Hyam, publican, has anyone checked for a will or admon for Charles?
Thomas & Charles HYAM! :eek:
No, I didn't check for the above ...... wouldn't it be fantastic if you found something? |bowdown|

[Linda]

Just in case he actually is telling the truth and his father really was Charles Hyam, publican, has anyone checked for a will or admon for Charles? I thought that Geoffers would be the first to raise that question (heehee). The answer is "No"

If I remember correctly, a full index is available at Kew?
How easy is it to search 30 or so years in the index?
Would it be fair to ask Susie Kew ;) to look it up, or is it a big task?

I don't want to put anyone to a lot of work. I could write to the postal services in York, but I think they will only search a few years. Which years would I choose?

Having slept on this, I did have another thought as well...re: GRO death index. The films are at my local LDS on a permanent basis so it wouldn't cost anything to search 30+ years (gulp!), but it would take one heck of a long time, and my time there is very limited. On the other hand, I could use 1837online in the comfort of my own home - the cost is not an awful lot, considering the time I would save. I don't know why I didn't consider this before. Once my search is complete I can then (hopefully) narrow down the years for a search for a Will.

Thanks Geoffers for the link to the surnames list - I don't think I've been there so will give it a go, and will have a look at the NFHS members list as well, assuming I can do so as a non-member.

Thanks everyone.

[Mythology]

"If I remember correctly, a full index is available at Kew?
How easy is it to search 30 or so years in the index?
Would it be fair to ask Susie Kew to look it up, or is it a big task?"

From the probable age, unless we are very unlucky, any will or admon would be 1858 or later so, yes, there's just one national index to check, for thirty-three years, and for most years (1871 onwards from memory) the wills and admons are in the same list, which makes life even easier.
However, I wouldn't ask my worst enemy to trawl thirty-three years at Kew when it's so much easier at Holborn.
It's only on fiche at Kew .....

Find your fiche
Walk to your seat
Look at fiche
Walk back to fiche drawer
Put it back
Rummage to find the next one which some careless person will doubtless have put back out of order
etc., etc.

Which takes at least twice the time, if not more, that it takes just pulling a book off the shelf, looking at it on the spot, then putting it back and grabbing the next one.

If I stick to Hyam/Hyams with the specific forename of Charles as a starter and leave other possibilities for filling in spare time on later visits, I can *very* easily do a thirty-three year blitz in less than an hour at Holborn.

Bar any last minute hitches, I should be in town on Thursday again, with time to spare once I've got someone settled in at the LMA (yes, that's two weeks running going to the LMA with someone who hasn't been there before!) - I'll pop down to Holborn and give it a bash.

[Linda]

Find your fiche
Walk to your seat
Look at fiche
Walk back to fiche drawer
Put it back
Rummage to find the next one which some careless person will doubtless have put back out of order
etc., etc.
Oh! That's as bad as trawling through GRO index films at the LDS !!!!:eek:

It's very kind of you to offer your assistance once again Mythology. Thank you very much |bowdown|

By the way, I have just heard back from Norfolk pubs web site manager - no search facility for publicans, but he gave me the following:

Norwich - Running Footman - Richard HYAM (assuming this is the same Richard found by Geoffers in 1851 census)

Norwich - Duke of Wellington, Chapel Street - Alexander HYAM

Brandon, Suffolk - The Cock - abt. 1868 - Cornelius HYAM (I found this one in 1861 and I think it was this one that caused you to check the marriage entry for Thomas in the Parish Register, just to make sure it really did show Charles as his father) In 1861 Cornelius had a 5 year old son named Thomas.

No shortage of HYAM publicans then, is there?

[Geoffers]

The films are at my local LDS on a permanent basis so it wouldn't cost anything to search 30+ years (gulp!), but it would take one heck of a long time,
Could you limit the period by seeing if you can find any of the family on the 1881 census (transcript on CD plus the mormon web-site) or the 1871 census (if you have a subscription to Ancestry) or the 1861 census (via 1837online.

Also, try a search of freebmd to bring out all deaths of Charles Hyam/Hyham/Higham/Heigham (with or without an 's') and check the wills index for those years first of all.

continued.....

[Geoffers]

part 2.....


will have a look at the NFHS members list as well, assuming I can do so as a non-member.
You will need to write to the society to check their lists. They used to publish a fiches of members interests every couple of years, but haven't done so since 2000).
Most Norwich families had someone who ended up in the Rosary Cemetery in Norwich. The MIs 1819-1986 have been published, but there's no trace of HYAM or variants. I similarly checked the published Norwich Archdeaconry Marriage Licence bonds and Norfolk Archdeaconry Marriage Licence Bonds 1813-1837 - no trace of teh name or variants.

Geoffers

[Linda]

Could you limit the period by seeing if you can find any of the family on the 1881 census (transcript on CD plus the mormon web-site) or the 1871 census (if you have a subscription to Ancestry) or the 1861 census (via 1837online.
I have searched for Thomas and Charles until the cows come home, so has Mythology and so has Diane.:(


Also, try a search of freebmd to bring out all deaths of Charles Hyam/Hyham/Higham/Heigham (with or without an 's') and check the wills index for those years first of all.

So far there is no Charles HYAM of an appropriate age, and there is only one Charles HYAMS in Whitechapel in 1857. I think Myth and I discussed this one and more or less ruled him out. I'm not averse to ordering his certificate though if it will help to rule him out.
There are several Charles HIGHAM entries but most of them in Lancashire. This version of the surname seems to be very prominent that county.

Thanks for checking the MIs and Marriage Licence bonds. Your help is very much appreciated. |bowdown|

(continued)

[Linda]

Norwich - Running Footman - Richard HYAM (assuming this is the same Richard found by Geoffers in 1851 census) I was wrong with that one - Norfolk pubs have him in 1760-1763!


Norwich - Duke of Wellington, Chapel Street - Alexander HYAM
This one was in 1912


Brandon, Suffolk - The Cock - abt. 1868 - Cornelius HYAM (I found this one in 1861 and I think it was this one that caused you to check the marriage entry for Thomas in the Parish Register, just to make sure it really did show Charles as his father) In 1861 Cornelius had a 5 year old son named Thomas.

Cornelius died in 1870 according to FreeBMD.
In 1861 he was at the Bell Inn in Brandon

Linda

[Jackie Reilly]

Hi Linda,

A very swift reply. I'm going to Norwich Records Office for two days this week(20/21st Sept). Will print your details and take them with me. I'll try my best to find some information for you.

Watch this space!
Jackie

[Linda]

Hi Jackie

Thank you, your kind offer is very much appreciated.|bowdown|

Just in case you happen across Charles Higham and wife Jane in Kings Lynn in the early 1850's, they are not mine. With help of friends, we have traced this Charles going to the USA in the 1850's and there is no sign of a son named Thomas with his family, and nothing to indicate that he was a publican either.:(

Thanks again, and yes I will certainly watch this space.

Linda

[Mythology]

No luck on Hyam/Hyams wills.

Checked 1858 up to 1892 in case Charles fell over five minutes before the wedding and Thomas got so drunk at the reception that it took him two years to get around to doing anything about Dad's will.

The only Charles looks like the one we already know of - the misleading allegedly Norfolk-born (according to 1861 & 1871) Charles Hyam who married that Irish Elizabeth whose surname I can't remember in the 1850s (somewhere down Paddington way, wasn't it?), didn't have a son called Thomas (in fact, doesn't appear to have had any kids at all), never moved out of the Kensal Green area, suddenly decided in 1881 that he wasn't born in Norfolk, he was born in Cockfield, Suffolk (and the wife in New Zealand not Ireland!), then had another guess in 1891 and decided to try Barton, Suffolk - but Liz is back to being Ireland again, so he didn't really have all that much imagination, did he?
This bright spark expired 1892 at 3 Church Place, Harrow Road - admon to widow Elizabeth.

Some alcofrolic Hyam/Hyams entries, but none have any obvious connection with your Thomas or his supposed father:

1877 Henry Hyams of the Grey Maurice, St Leonard Road, Bromley, Kent - admon to widow Maria.

1879 Sophia Hyams of the Ivy House, St Johns Road, Hoxton, Middx - admon to hubby George.

1882 Reuben Hyams, formerly of the Jane Shore, High Street, Shoreditch, but late of the Butchers Arms, Dane Street, Islington - will proved by Benjamin Hyams of the Railway Tavern, Hackney.

[Mythology]

Afterthought.

I expect that somewhere in one of many e-mails on the subject I've already pointed this out, but in case not ......

Let us take the case of Augusta Talbot(t) of 1843, who married John Stephen Edward Streek, and whose daughter, Augusta Streek, then married John Braddick.
On the 1901 census, widowed Augusta of 1843 is with the Braddicks. John thinks that his mother-in-law was born in Limehouse.
On the 1891, she's still with hubby, who thinks that his wife was born in Camden Town, which isn't exactly very close to Limehouse.
This is ever so slightly different to the 1881, on which he thinks that his wife was born in Pimlico!
In 1871 they haven't been married very long so he hasn't had time to think about where his wife was born and just puts Middlesex.
It is only on the 1861 and 1851, when she's still at home, that her father sticks the pin in the right part of the map of London and says "Somers Town" - she's the girl in the 1843 June quarter births with the "tt" spelling and a St Pancras reference. Of all the others, only Camden Town comes close.

Obviously you will wish to have a bash at the Norwich PRs, because you have nothing else to go on, but if you only have one census return to go by, and especially if that census return is after the person has left home, it is often complete and utter rubbish.

[Linda]

Thank you so much for checking the Wills Index Mythology. With the luck I'm having on my Hyam research I'm not surprised that there was no Charles, publican, to be found, but as always I very much appreciate your help.


Benjamin Hyams of the Railway Tavern looked an interesting one. In 1861 he is in Bethnal Green, a master iron turner (my Thomas was an iron fitter), with his family including 1 year old Thomas W. He was a beer shop keeper/licensed victualler in later censuses, but I think his Thomas was married in 1882, so that's him out of the picture.

(continued)

[Linda]

Obviously you will wish to have a bash at the Norwich PRs, because you have nothing else to go on, but if you only have one census return to go by, and especially if that census return is after the person has left home, it is often complete and utter rubbish Yes I agree Mythology, one census alone is just not enough to determine a person's birthplace, but as you said it is all I have to go on. You may remember one of my other great grandfathers - I found him in all censuses from 1861 to 1901, born in a different place on each census. One of them was right but it was the most unlikely choice......Higham!!!! |laugh1| (Near Barnsley, Yorkshire)

Linda

[Linda]

By the way I have been busy this week downloading images from the death index. I was surprised to find how far along they have come on FreeBMD. I have downloaded all of the images (for Hyam/s) for the quarters not well covered, as well as most of the quarters that are almost complete by FreeBMD, but still no luck with an entry for Charles Hyam/s. I didn't do Higham/s yet, or other variants, but my feeling is that there will be so many that I will never be able to sort them all out.

I can understand a birth not being registered, but what are the chances of a death not being registered?

Linda

[coenmfam]

Linda
here is a site worth keeping an eye on
they dont have much for Norwich yet
but I expect in time they will

http://www.norfolkhistory.co.uk/church-records/archdeacon-transcripts/archdeacon-transcripts.html

I know the frustrating feeling of being mostly confined to research on the web
If I ever won one of those holidays to sunny England in a competition
I would be spending most of my time prowling around the old churches in Norfolk
taking photos of gravestones, and trawling through old parchments like a monk
LOL

Neville

[Linda]

Hi Mythology


Thanks for the death registration info - and no, I have never searched for "unknown", but being the curious one that I am, I scooted over to FreeBMD and had a wee nosey. Wow!

Now about that info on the ladies of Norwich....



Now go through the 1861 census for Norwich. Write down the surnames of all the women who have a son called Thomas aged up to, say, about three, who are either single, allegedly married but with no husband present, or claim that they are widowed. Write the surnames on individual slips of paper and paste these on a wall. Now ask hubby to run down the pub, borrow a set of darts, come back and throw them at the wall. By the law of averages, one of them should have hit one of the slips of paper.
I'll have you know that hubby is very good at darts, so perhaps your suggestion is a good one, he's bound to hit the right one.;)

I've booked a time-slot at the LDS for next Saturday, so fingers crossed that they already have some Norwich PR's on permanent loan, which I can search while waiting for my order to come in.

Linda

[Linda]

Thank you for the link Neville - yes it certainly is worth keeping an eye on

Linda

[Geoffers]

Just as a passing thought, I wondered if perhaps the name HYAM had corrupted, deliberately or accidentally from something else, and browsing the 1851 census came up with:

HO107/1817 f383 p5
Coach & Horses, Vicar Street, Wymondham
William HIGH Head M 42 M Innkeeper & Carter Edgefield
Sophia HIGH Wife M 41 F --- Wymondham
John HIGH Son U 20 M Wheelwrights Apprentice Hellesdon
Charles HIGH Son U 18 M Hay Trusser Hellesdon
plus these children - Sarah, 14. James, 12, William, 10, Kezia, 9, Henry, 7, Sophia,5 and Mary Ann, 2 - all born Wymondham

Hellesdon is a suburb of Norwich. Probably nowt in it, but maybe worth sticking at the back of your mind.
Geoffers

[Linda]

Thanks for that extra thought Geoffers, the possibilities are endless aren't they? Maybe the family emigrated before 1861, and maybe Thomas returned back to England after 1881.

I've had help to search for that other family you found in 1851, Richard Heigham, in other censuses, but couldn't find them either. Hard to believe that they could hide with all those children, and especially with a daughter named Thyrza and even Gertrude is surely not too common.

I'm absolutely sure that the surname has been corrupted. It is so uncommon that nobody seems to know how to spell it. Even in modern days (well I don't consider myself ancient - yet) when I was a child I remember that we would receive mail addressed to Hyams, Hyman, Hymans, Heigham and other varients

My other thought was that the name was possibly messed up during transcription. Sometimes I think an 'H' could be seen as Tl or Fl, as in Flyen, Flynn, or something similar. That would really mess things up when searching for a surname in an index!

If I haven't already searched Hellesden on my 1861 census cd's, I will take a look there.

Thanks again.

Linda

[Geoffers]

On the Norfolk forum you will find a surname index to quite a few places in Norfolk's 1861 census, in fact there are over 24,000 names listed.

No Higham or variants in Hellesdon but:

HIGHAM
RG9/1219 f76/1
Heigham RD5

Any use?
Geoffers

[Linda]

Hi Geoffers, thanks for your continued interest.|hug|


I have been keeping a keen eye on your 1861 surname index.;) The Higham that you pointed out is Charlotte, she was born in Suffolk and I don't have a clue as to whether there is any connection to my Thomas or his father Charles.

I did have another thought, I wonder if it might be worthwhile contacting Norwich Register Office, just in case the birth of Thomas was registered locally but never made it to the GRO index? What do you think?

Linda

[Geoffers]

The Higham that you pointed out is Charlotte, she was born in Suffolk
I just wondered if the clue was in the birthplace. A lot of Hyam/Higham entries in the 1851 census show Suffolk birthplaces. I have a vague recollection that you've discounted the Brandon born Charles Higham who was living at Kings Lynn in 1851, is that correct?


I did have another thought, I wonder if it might be worthwhile contacting Norwich Register Office, just in case the birth of Thomas was registered locally but never made it to the GRO index? What do you think?
This sound like clutching at straws, but it seems that you are at that stage with this annoyingly well hidden person. The staff at the registrar's office are really nice and helpful, but I'm not sure how wide a search they might be willing to carry out for you.

Please choose your ancestors with more care in the next life! :)

Geoffers

[Linda]

I just wondered if the clue was in the birthplace. A lot of Hyam/Higham entries in the 1851 census show Suffolk birthplaces. I have a vague recollection that you've discounted the Brandon born Charles Higham who was living at Kings Lynn in 1851, is that correct?



That's correct - he went off to the USA. Why is it that I can find a lot of info about those who don't appear to be related?



This sound like clutching at straws
I think I've been clutching at straws for a long time on this one! |banghead|

I think I can narrow down the dates for the search of the birth of Thomas - On his marriage certificate dated Oct 1890 he was 31 and in the 1891 census he was still 31. If my math is correct then, and assuming (I know, that's a naughty word) he wasn't lying about his age, he was born in 1859.

To put another twist on that I also have his death certificate which shows age 79 in 1935!

Linda