Army Pensioner

[Londonwhay]

I have a birth certificate, 1922, where the father's occupation is given as Army Pensioner. It seems fairly obvious that this relates to WW1, but there are no surviving relatives who would remember more details. How would I find out more?

Glenda

[Geoffers]

I have a birth certificate, 1922, where the father's occupation is given as Army Pensioner. It seems fairly obvious that this relates to WW1, but there are no surviving relatives who would remember more details. How would I find out more?
Glenda
I'd suggest the first place to try might be the National Archives, Documents online - look under WW1 Campaign Medals.
http://www.documentsonline.nationalarchives.gov.uk/
I believe that surnames up to and including those beginning with 'T' have been added to the site so far. The medal roll will give you a name, rank, regiment/corps - it's a start.

Geoffers
Charlbury, Oxfordshire

[Londonwhay]

I'd suggest the first place to try might be the National Archives, Documents online - look under WW1 Campaign Medals.
http://www.documentsonline.nationalarchives.gov.uk/
I believe that surnames up to and including those beginning with 'T' have been added to the site so far. The medal roll will give you a name, rank, regiment/corps - it's a start.

Geoffers
Charlbury, Oxfordshire
Oh dear, the surname is VINE :( Guess I'll have to wait until they reach the V's

Thanks anyway Geoffers

Glenda

[Geoffers]

If you're near to Kew, you can always search the medal rolls in person at TNA.

Other alternatives at TNA are to hope that his service record (in WO97) wasn't one of the many destroyed by enemy action in WW2 - or if he was discharged to long service pension before 1920, to look in WO116 (but I think these are arranged by date of discharge rather than name).

Geoffers
Charlbury, Oxfordshire

[Guy Etchells]

It makes things difficult when people don't give details ;-))
Anyway there is a E.L. Vine, 8 Tramway Avenue, Lower Edmonton mentioned in section 3 Part 1 of The National Roll of the Great War.
Also a F.A. Vine, 176 Robertson Street, Wandsworth road S.W.8 mentioned in section 7 of The National Roll of the Great War
Both available from Archive CD Books (http://www.parishchest.com/en-gb/dept_1833.html)
Its a long shot but who knows.
Cheers
Guy

[Geoffers]

I have a birth certificate, 1922, where the father's occupation is given as Army Pensioner. It seems fairly obvious that this relates to WW1, but there are no surviving relatives who would remember more details. How would I find out more?
Glenda
I forgot to mention, and just in passing.............

If he had other children born prior to 1922, whilst still in the army. You may find certificates for them in:

Indexes to Regimental Registers of Births (1761-1924) - these relate to events at home and abroad.

Indexes to Army Returns of Births, and Marriages, and Deaths (1881-1955) - these are all events which occurred abroad.

Geoffers
Charlbury, Oxfordshire

[Londonwhay]

It makes things difficult when people don't give details ;-))
Anyway there is a E.L. Vine, 8 Tramway Avenue, Lower Edmonton mentioned in section 3 Part 1 of The National Roll of the Great War.
Also a F.A. Vine, 176 Robertson Street, Wandsworth road S.W.8 mentioned in section 7 of The National Roll of the Great War
Both available from Archive CD Books (http://www.parishchest.com/en-gb/dept_1833.html)
Its a long shot but who knows.
Cheers
Guy
Thanks Guy,

this was a George VINE, and his location was probably Essex. I'll have to do what Geoffers suggests and take a trip to Kew sometime.

Glenda

[Linda Bailey]

Thank you Geoffers - I never knew about this - I have now managed to find at least one of my relatives.

Now to understand the image!!!

McIvor James
RScFus (Royal Scots Fusiliers) Pte 19628
Lab Corps? Pte 176254

Medal
Victory - Supp * £6/10 2 B10 Page 998
British - do do
15 Star - L 6/2/ Cm/138/1

Remarks
BEF 25 2 19?

Theatre of War first served in (1) France
Date of entry therein 13.9.15

I knew the bit about the Royal Scots Fusiliers and his number and he was certainly in France. That he was in hospital in London in Jan 1917. I don't think he returned to France after that.
Does this mean that he only joined the Royal Scots Fusiliers in 1915? I don't know his date of birth but his sister was born in 1858 so he wouldn't have been young.

Why does he seem to have two different service numbers?

[Linda Bailey]

In case someone can help with understanding this information I have posted the image on-line at:
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~linka/mcivor/mcivor-medal.html

Thank you.

[Geoffers]

Now to understand the image!!!
McIvor James
RScFus (Royal Scots Fusiliers) Pte 19628
Lab Corps? Pte 176254
Theatre of War first served in (1) France
Date of entry therein 13.9.15
Does this mean that he only joined the Royal Scots Fusiliers in 1915? I don't know his date of birth but his sister was born in 1858 so he wouldn't have been young.
Why does he seem to have two different service numbers?
Hello Linda
If you look at the medal roll, you'll see that the numbers are not Service numbers, but Regimental Numbers.

He appaers to have joined the RSF as a Private, been given one regimental number; then transferred to the Labour Corps - since he was now on teh strength of a different regt/corps, he would have been given a new regimental number.

[15 Star - L 6/2/ Cm/138/1]

I think the medal roll is actually LC/2/Cm/138/1

[BEF 25 2 19?]

Looks more like Clz 25 2 19 to more. The second letter may be a 'e' though.

The date is not that of joining, but of his entering the theatre of war to qualify for the medals.

Geoffers
Charlbury, Oxfordshire

[Linda Bailey]

Thank you very much - so is a regiment number a unique number in that regiment? I think I assumed that they all had a unique number that would identify them just given the number.

I have found out what the Labour Corps are from this web-site:
http://www.geocities.com/labour_corps/
which I assume he would have transfered into after being in hospital and perhaps through age.

Now this might be a daft question but what does the military roll number mean?
Is it a reference number and if I followed it up what would I find out since I can see from this card which medals he received?

I know so little about him - so I like finding these little scraps of information. Out of interest what sort of age did men leave the army?

[Geoffers]

(a) so is a regiment number a unique number in that regiment? I think I assumed that they all had a unique number that would identify them just given the number.

(b) Now this might be a daft question but what does the military roll number mean? Is it a reference number and if I followed it up what would I find out since I can see from this card which medals he received?
In asnwer to (a), basically yes. As someone joined a regiment, they were given a sequential number within that regiment - transfer to another regiment/corps and you got a new number.

The system changed, first in 1917 and then again in 1922 in each case, from that date onwards, a number allocated to a soldier was retained throughout his career. I believe the numbering system was changed yet again in WW2 (sometime around 1940/1?? - but this may be wrong and I'm thinking of something else).

Regarding (b) the medal roll wll give no more information than is on the card you obtained from Documentsonline.

Men generally served 21 years to get a long service pension, someone joining aged 20 could be retired by 41. Many just joined for the war and quite a few lied about their age, those recruiting often turned a blind eye. How old was your chap, does he appear in either the 1901/1881 census?

Geoffers
Charlbury, Oxfordshire

[Linda Bailey]

.

Men generally served 21 years to get a long service pension, someone joining aged 20 could be retired by 41. Many just joined for the war and quite a few lied about their age, those recruiting often turned a blind eye. How old was your chap, does he appear in either the 1901/1881 census?

Geoffers
Charlbury, Oxfordshire

Thanks for clarifying the information about the medal rolls.
With regards to James McIvor he won't appear in the 1881 as he will be in Ireland, and as yet I have not managed to find him on the 1901 census in NI either. I'm looking in Co Tyrone at the moment for him.

I also don't know when he died or how old he was but certainly not until the 1930's at least, as a relative can remember her Uncle Jim. Is there any way of finding out if he did get a long service pension? I would estimate him to be around 50 at the start of WW1. Was that too old to fight in France?

And armed with the regimental numbers what sort of information could I get from going to Kew?

Linda, Bristol

[Geoffers]

I think your best bet at Kew is if he joined the army and served his time to pension. If you cannot locate him in the 1901 census, he may well have enlisted sometime prior to WW1 and been kept on because of the war.

Pension records were administered by the Royal Hospital at Chelsea and the Royal Hospital at Kilmainham, Dublin.

Kilmainham pension records will be in WO118 and Chelsea records in WO118 (disability pensions in WO116). Pension records are arranged by date of discharge/admission to pension. They include name, age, birthplace, details of service and reason for discharge.

Soldiers' Documents (Service Records) are held at Kew - however, a large number were destroyed by fire, following enemy bombing in WW2 - You may be lucky in that your chap's recods survive, but you may well find that little or nothing has survived. The only way to check is to visit Kew.

One other thing you might try is to try and find out in which batallion/unit he served and then to read the war diaries relating to that unit. I've not been able to find much relating to my own family (sod's law), but I've heard of others who have found these very useful.

I'll have a think and get my books out to see if there's owt else I can suggest.

Geoffers
Charlbury, Oxfordshire

[Linda Bailey]

Thank you for all the information you have given me - I certainly have a new area to explore.

You mention:
"One other thing you might try is to try and find out in which batallion/unit he served and then to read the war diaries relating to that unit."

I know (from a scrap of paper in a note book) that he was in the 2nd Royal Scots Fusiliers, Attatched Military Police, B.E.F. 12th Division.

I am uncertain when I have tried finding information on the web what a Division is. Is it a sub-unit of the Royal Scots Fusiliers or is it a combined group of different regiments?

I assume the 2nd refers to a Battalion so it must be a sub-division of the entire regiment.

So is it Division, Regiment, Battalion or Regiment, Battalion, Division?
Of course I could have the structure entirely wrong.

Also where the pension records are kept (Dublin or Chelsea) - is that based on where they lived before they joined?
(Sorry to keep on asking questions like this - its an area of research I just don't know anything about).

Linda

[Geoffers]

[I know (from a scrap of paper in a note book) that he was in the 2nd Royal Scots Fusiliers, Attatched Military Police, B.E.F. 12th Division. I am uncertain when I have tried finding information on the web what a Division is. Is it a sub-unit of the Royal Scots Fusiliers or is it a combined group of different regiments?]

A Divsion is a large unit. A Corp is made up of two or more Divisions. You'll usually have two or more brigades within a division. A brigade might be formed from 3 battalions.

Regiments prior to the war usually consisted of 2 battalions; but during the Great War they expanded enormously and a regiment could consist of 12 battalions.


[I assume the 2nd refers to a Battalion so it must be a sub-division of the entire regiment.]

That's correct.


[Also where the pension records are kept]

The pension records are now kept at TNA, Kew.


[(Dublin or Chelsea) - is that based on where they lived before they joined?]

No, I believe (and I'd stand to be corrected here) that it is based on the regiment they joined for records up to 1822 - someone joining a regiment on the Irish Establisment fell into this category. Post-1822 soldiers discharged to Ireland were examined at Kilmainham. I would guess that your chap in 1920 is likely to be found in amongst the Chelsea records.

Geoffers
Charlbury, Oxfordshire

[Linda Bailey]

So I want to look for the War Diarys relating to the 12th Division in the first instance?

Incidently when I followed the link I gave above relating to the Lab Corps there was an offer to help those trying to find information on soldiers in the Lab Corps. So I emailed my new Regimental number to Ivor and had the following interestnig reply:

"His number of 176254 indicates that he was one of the original members of the Labour Corps following its formation in 1917. It also means that, initially at least, he served in 325 Company.

325 was a UK based company but there is no record of where it was stationed. We know that the men in it had numbers in the range 176141 to 176440 but the surviving records do not show its location.

I know it was a works company so they would have been involved in making items for the Army. These could include things like the wooden roads and duck boards used in France, ammunition boxes, build wooden buildings and so on.

Men were frequently transferred from one Company to another"

So I now know a little more about what he did towards the end of the war.

Linda

[Geoffers]

[So I want to look for the War Diarys relating to the 12th Division in the first instance?]

No, go for the smallest unit in which you nkow someone served, in this case, the 2nd Bn Royal Scots Fusiliers.

Excellent that you found the additional information......

[325 was a UK based company but there is no record of where it was stationed. We know that the men in it had numbers in the range 176141 to 176440 but the surviving records do not show its location]

Did the Corps have officers who may appear in the Army List?

Geoffers

[Linda Bailey]

Did the Corps have officers who may appear in the Army List?

Geoffers

I don't know if they did.

Next question - what is an Army List?

I'm thinking I'm going to have to get to Kew soon - I tried looking on-line and as far as I can see the war-diaries for the 2nd Battalion Royal Scots Fusiliers are not available to download via the internet.

Linda

[Geoffers]

[Next question - what is an Army List?]

A publication listing officers their postings and regiments. Useful if for example, you know someone served in a certain regiment in the 1880's and wanted to know where the regiment was. Something similar exists for the RN and the RAF, which are unimaginatively but accurately called The Navy List and The Air Force List, respectively.

I have no idea as to the set up of the Labour Corps or its postings (I'm better with Navy records than Army), or if it was part of the main army strength. A search of PROCAT might give a clue about this?

[I'm thinking I'm going to have to get to Kew soon - I tried looking on-line and as far as I can see the war-diaries for the 2nd Battalion Royal Scots Fusiliers are not available to download via the internet.]

There are thousands of war diaries and they are not available to download; so it will have to be a visit to Kew. As I previously mentioned, get the war diary for teh smallest unit you know, there's more chance of a mention of your chap by name then and also you will know exactly what his unit was doing. If you can find in which company he served (a company is a unit of a battalion) then this would be the one to aim for.

Geoffers

[Linda Bailey]

Thank you Geoffers for all your help - I have definately learned a bit more about his life in the last few days - all starting from your comment about the medal roll.

I think until I get to Kew there is not much more I can find out. Now when can I get up to London without the children!!!;)

Linda

[Colin Moretti]

Next question - what is an Army List?

I'm thinking I'm going to have to get to Kew soon - I tried looking on-line and as far as I can see the war-diaries for the 2nd Battalion Royal Scots Fusiliers are not available to download via the internet.

Linda

Hello Linda

I assume that you've not been to Kew before, excuse me if you have. Before you go do look at their web site,
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/searchourcollections/
Go to "search the catalogue" and search for "army", they list 81 guidance leaflets that you can download, a number of which you will find relevant. They will tell you about the different records that they have, their limitations, and the way that you can access them. The more preparation you can do before you go the better. If you need to look at original records (most WW 1 army records are on microfilm, I think), you can order them a few days before you go to save some time.

Colin Moretti

[Neil Wilson]

I read through this thread and I haven't seen the Chelsea Pensioners site published, so here it is http://www.chelsea-pensioners.co.uk/home.asp
They have a link to an archivist somewhere on it which may help in searching for a patient of the hospital.
Regarding the Army List, same for Navy and RAF, us common workers in the mob wasn't mentioned, only the officers.
Regards
Neil