HELP!! There is a hole in the dike.

[Sharon Medley]

I need somebodys help with what to do with a wealth of information that is flowing from a hole in the brick wall on John and Eliza GATES/YATES. After looking at the 1861 census for William GATES/YATES, who was on the same page of Baptismals for three of John and Eliza's children, I looked again at the page of the oldest child George GATES baptismal and low and behold just above George is the Baptismal of Matilda SAMUELS, daughter of Daniel Philip and Eliza Georgina SAMUELS who are living with William and Matilda on the 1861 census. Matilda was baptised at the age of 19, she was born 06 Aug. 1836.
Now what can I do with this information to try and find John GATES/YATES.
Sharon

[jeeb]

Hi sharon,
Sorry but I can't see what you are asking here! What has Matilda Samuel got to do with John Gates beside appearing above his oldest child in the Baptismal register? Who are the William & Matilda you are referring to on 1861 census? She obviously means something to you but remember we don't know your family tree. Can you explain who she is please.

Jeremy

[Sharon Medley]

I'm sorry Jeremy,
We were thinking that William GATES and John GATES were possibly related since they keep showing up together on baptismal records At first I thought that they were brothers but when I saw the almost 25 years age difference didn't know if that was likely. John born 1810 William born 1835.
Sharon

[Geoffers]

Presumably this is a page from a parish register? If so, it should name the father, mother, father's occupation and place of abode.

Is William's father, John? If not, who? Can you locate this person on the 1861 census? When were they baptised? - Are birth certificates available?

You mention that on the same page of this document there are three baptisms of children of John + Eliza. GATES/YATES is a name which occurs frequently, they may or may not be connected.

If you have William's father on the 1861 census and John on the same census, do they have the same birthplace? Have you been able to find the marriage certificates for William's father and John + Eliza?

continued....

[Geoffers]

part 2..........

If they married after 1837, these should show their respective fathers' names and occupations. Are the names the same on each document?

Can you trace both William and John + Eliza on earlier census returns?

Do any of these people appear in directories?

Do you know when any of the adults died and if they left wills?

Sorry if this doesn't answer what you're after, but like Jemery I was slightly confused by your message.

Geoffers

[Sharon Medley]

Geoffers,
I'll try not to confuse you as much as I'm confused. On 14 Aug. 2005 I sent a copy of the Baptismal records for 3 of the GATES children, all 3 entries showed the same parents of John and Eliza Gates.Right below their names is a Eugenia Matila Eliza Gates, parents William and Matilda GATES. In 1857 is the Baptismal for George GATES, parents John and Eliza GATES. Just above that is the Baptismal for Matilda SAMUELS, parents Daniel and Eliza SAMUELS.
Now in the 1861 census for Stepney,Mile End Old Town are William and Matilda GATES, living with them are Matilda's parents Daniel and Eliza SAMUELS. Williams occupation is "traveller" same as on the Baptismal record. Shows place of birth as Stepney.
Now on to the 1861 census for John and Eliza GATES. Shows Johns occupation as "traveller" same as Baptismal records. Born St. Katherines, Middlesex.
I have, to no avail, been able to find a birth record for John or William,,,John born 1810 and William born 1835. Cannot find marriage record for John and Eliza GATES. Did find a marriage record for William and Matilda on LDS IGI. Only states married 14 June 1857 St. Thomas, Stepney .
Have not had the chance to check LDS Library yet .
I have requested a 1851 census look up for John and Eliza but no response as of yet. In 1861 they were living at 69 Wellesley St. I've checked the 1871 census and they are no longer at that address.
Are you as confused as Iam? If so, SORRY.
Sharon

[jeeb]

Hi Sharon,
Thanks for your reply. I wonder why it is you ask for Yates and Gates, which name are you hopefully trying to trace? I understand the need to look under both spellings in an index because they are easily misread by the transciber but the family themselves would have known their name. On the 1861 census, I feel sure I have looked at the correct entries in both cases, the name is Yates. In John's case compare the 'G' of Gregory at the top of the page and in William's case, the 'G' of George half way down the page. In both cases the enumerators 'G' is not the same as the 'Y' for Yates. The children living with John are all born in Stephney, as is William, so it is a fair bet William is the son of John & Eliza, in 1835 John would be 25 and Eliza 21, certainly old enough to be William's parents.
Yates & Gates are both fairly common English surnames but nevertheless distinct from each other, so unless the family deliberately changed its name you should only need to follow one name. What is the modern name used by your family you are trying to research?

Best wishes, Jeremy.

[Sharon Medley]

Jeremy,
Thank you for your input. I really thought that I was looking for GATES. That's the way Frederick's name (my GGgrandfather) has been transcribed in all the Canadian records that I have. Now I'm more confused than ever.
Sharon

[jeeb]

Hi Sharon,
This has to be the same family on 1861 census surely, the chances of a William Yates and William Gates both marrying a Matilda Samuels is remote to say the least. So why Yates on the 1861 census? Did they deliberately change the name for some reason, quite a common practise, or did the enumerators mishear the name on the 1861 census, remember if this is the case it happened in both the case of John & William? Do you have access to FreeBMD? If not give me a precis of what you know and I will have a look for you.
Jeremy.

[Sharon Medley]

Jeremy,

Yes, I have access to to FreeBMD and 1837. Have looked for both William and John with the names spelled both ways. Could not find because BMD and 1837 only go back to 1837. Also could not find reg. of births for anybodys children, only Baptismal records. Marriage records is cost prohibitive since there are so many choices. I did find a marriage for a william YATES and Matilda SAMUEL listed on both BMD and LDS IGI for 19 SEP 1857 St. Thomas, Stepney. Have the LDS film number so will request a library loan.
I have gone back and looked at all my originals for Frederick GATES in Canada.
(He is the one who I started with, GGrandfather). In looking at the birth registrations for his children in looked like the last name was YATES until I saw the occupation as "gas fitter" and the "G" in gas was exactly like the letter of his last name. In the marrriage records of his daughter Jennie it is diffinitly GATES.
Sharon

[Geoffers]

Cannot find marriage record for John and Eliza GATES. Did find a marriage record for William and Matilda on LDS IGI. Only states married 14 June 1857 St. Thomas, Stepney.
I suggest getting hold of a copy of the marriage certificate - if you're not sure how to, please ask. The certificate should record William's father's name and occupation. You may be able to find the father in the 1861 census, possibly living near to William + John? A marriage certificate will also give you witnesses names, these are often relatives - maybe there is a John who witnessed William's marriage?


Have looked for both William and John with the names spelled both ways. Could not find because BMD and 1837 only go back to 1837.
Civil registration only began then in England and Wales. To find events prior to then you need to use parish registers - to find which registers to check, you need to have a place of birth, which can usually be found from census returns.

Geoffers

[Sharon Medley]

Geoffers,

Thank you. Sould I apply to GRO for a certificate since is has a vol. and page number? Will it be a copy of the original or a transcribtion?

Sharon

[Geoffers]

Thank you. Sould I apply to GRO for a certificate since is has a vol. and page number? Will it be a copy of the original or a transcribtion?
The local registrar sent copies of records to the GRO; so if you apply to the GRO, you'll get a copy of the document they hold. For a marriage, this may well be a photocopy of one of the certificates originally completed at the service.

Geoffers

[Sharon Medley]

Geoffers,

Thank you. I'll get right on it. It sure would have made genealogy a lot easier if they could have used typewriters.
Sharon

[Sharon Medley]

Geoffers and all you other kind people,
Just thought that I would give an update as to my progress of straightening out the Gates/Yates mystery.
I have sent away for a copy of the marriage registration for William Yates and Matilda Samuels. I have ordered an inter library loan of the marrige of my Frederick Gates (whose baptismal record I have showing parents John and Eliza Gates) but don't know if his marriage records will tell me that much since he was married in Canada and was 29 years of age so did not need parents consent. This morning I went into LDS records and found the baptism of William Yates..shows baptised 01 Nov. 1835 St. Dunstan, Stepney, London England (correct time frame from census records). Shows parents..John and Eliza Yates.Now just need to see if we have a transcriber problem or I'm barking up two different trees.
Sharon

[Sharon Medley]

I have just returned from the LDS library and have made a copy of the marriage registration of Frederick GATES and Eliza Freeland hoping to find the parents of both. Now I am more confused than ever.The records that I have on Frederick GATES are his baptismal records in St. Thomas Church in Stepney showing his parents as John and Eliza GATES. His birth date shows the same as the 1901 Canadian census. Now the marriage of Frederick Gates and Eliza Freeland in Canada show Fredericks parents as James and Elizabeth GATES. Is it possible that a John and Eliza GATES gave birth to a Frederick the sames day as a James and Elizabeth Gates gave birth to a Frederick?
Does anyone have access to the 1851 or 61 census to see if there is a James and Elizabeth Gates with a son Frederick born 21 Jyly 1846?
Sharon