Living People

[Diane Grant-Salmon]

Could someone tell me whether I'm right or wrong on this question please? I had always thought that if you uploaded your Family Tree to the internet, you had to obtain permission from any living people first, before their names and details were included on it.

For example, the GenesReunited site mentions this, so I assume that if someone uploaded details without permission, if they didn't remove the names when requested ....... a complaint to GR would mean that they would deal with the matter?

In the case of an individual's own web site, where they have uploaded their Family Tree, if my assumption is correct re this rule ..... how can you make them remove the info, or is this not possible?

[Peter Goodey]

See some correspondence with the OIC here:

http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~allpoms/ukdataprotection.html

I'm not clear how up to date it is.

Note in particular "...we would strongly recommend that any information provided to the genealogy community stresses the need to process personal data with due regard to the interests of the data subject to whom the personal data being processed relates."

If I interpret the question correctly, it would seem to my non-legal mind that the Human Rights Act might be relevant and could be cited in dealings with the originator of the data and with the operators of the site where the offending data is hosted. There might be a problem if it isn't hosted in the UK but perhaps you may recall Godfrey vs Demon Internet which was a case with implications for all British ISPs even though the alleged libel did not necessarily originate from within the UK.

[Diane Grant-Salmon]

Hi Peter,
Many thanks for your reply and the link.

I wrote to him three days ago, requesting that my name, my husband's name and my brother's name be removed ...... however, no reply as yet, even though he wrote to me earlier the same day giving me the address of his site.

I didn't write to him using his hotmail address on his web site, as I didn't want him to have my email address, so I wrote via Genes Reunited. The fact that he's uploaded my direct line of descent doesn't worry me at all, except that he's been exceptionally careless with Mothers' giving birth before they were born, or after they died, also that my details are incorrect!

It looks like I'll just have to put up with it, as I don't want any sort of legal 'fight' with him ..... I'll just delete his name from my list of contacts, plus a little giggle that my line of descent doesn't even make sense! He has my Grandparents (who were born in 1884 and 1891) as my Parents and my Father as the lone Parent of my Grandfather! ;)

[Chasing Caseys]

I havent put my or my parents brother,cousins or in short "living" ect info on genesre or any other tree i have put on the web incase someone else decides to use it and distribute it and finding myself or having put someone else in that position would irritate me more than my gnat bites at the moment ! I worry about stolen identities or maybe thats just my mind working overtime |shakehead

[BeeE586]

Earlier in the year I found details of my living nephew's birth on Genes Reunited. A very unusual surname, coupled with his exact date and place of birth - in a place where it would not be expected - meant that it was almost certainly him. The only living people entered on my tree are my son and myself. I tried to contact the person who had entered these details, (who had the same surname), and asked for access to his tree, but he chose not to reply. I then contacted GR, explained the situation, and although they could not give me any information on the person (quite rightly) my nephew's details were immdiately removed from the site and I received a very handsome apology. The details have not reappeared.

I do believe that GR acted very properly in this matter and I applaud them for it.

Eileen

My own details do appear on several other trees in GR, that of a first cousin and several other relatives of lesser degree. This is with my permission.

[Peter Goodey]

"It looks like I'll just have to put up with it, as I don't want any sort of legal 'fight' with him"


I wouldn't imagine you would.

If he declines to remove it, you could contact the host site (probably his ISP) and complain to them, mentioning in vague terms the Human Rights legislation.

[Diane Grant-Salmon]

Hi Tracey & Eileen,

Thanks for the info that Genes Reunited will do something about it, if they receive a complaint ..... that is nice to know and I applaud them for it. This person hasn't got my details on the GR site (as yet, I will keep checking! ;) ) it's his own web site.

As you both know, you have to enter details about yourself in order to upload your Family Tree. I copied some of my family files by gedcoms and merged these into a new file called Genes Reunited. These were all my Cornish families, but only direct lines of my Yorkshire families, plus all of my husband's families. I took the time and trouble to delete all the names of living people, except for a few who had given me permission to display their names.

Then I uploaded this Genes Reunited file (approximately 8500 names) by one gedcom to the GR site. I have been contacted by lots of people and I'm very grateful for that, this is the first 'trouble' I have ever had.

However, I have now removed permission from every contact to view my tree, this makes no difference to people contacting you, as you are aware. Although I've never asked to view trees, people have given permission to me to view theirs, but I only did it once and gave it up as a bad job, because it's too slow!

[Diane Grant-Salmon]

"It looks like I'll just have to put up with it, as I don't want any sort of legal 'fight' with him"

I wouldn't imagine you would.

If he declines to remove it, you could contact the host site (probably his ISP) and complain to them, mentioning in vague terms the Human Rights legislation.
Hi Peter,
Please forgive me for being a 'numpty' but if you get a minute sometime, could you please tell me how I do that? I haven't got a clue. :)

[Diane Grant-Salmon]

I'm going offline now Peter, but I forgot to mention that I received a reply from Nottingham University, in respect of the copy Marriage Licence, on the 26 August:

We will send you an estimate of the cost of copying the document, together with a copyright declaration form, within the next week.

[Peter Goodey]

"...could you please tell me how I do that? "

I was going to say I'll drop you a private message only you seem to have it turned off. It'll be a public one then, I'll have a look later on.

[Peter Goodey]

"I received a reply from Nottingham University"

I hope that means they've found it. Should only cost a fiver or so.

[Guy Etchells]

Under UK law there is nothing unlawful about including details of living people on a web site. The Data Protection Act specifically excludes such information on family history sites it is up to the person concerned what they place on their site.

The DPA Commissioner's official ruling on the subject is-

"In accordance with section 36, if the research in question is undertaken purely for "that individual's personal, family or household affairs (including recreational purposes)" then that processing is exempt from compliance with the Act. This would be case the case whether or not that data was published on a website."

The Human Rights Act would not help either in the majority of cases, it is fundemental to UK democracy that there is no privacy law this prevents politicians and the like hiding behind such privilege.
Cheers
Guy

[Peter Goodey]

Although there is no single law that appears to be directly relevant there is a general requirement to interpret all legislation including common law in a way that is not incompatible with the Human Rights Act which, although it is mainly concerned with privacy from the State, includes a general principle of respect for privacy.

However this is beside the point because Diane doesn't want to take legal action - just to exert a little pressure.

[Peter Goodey]

"Please forgive me for being a 'numpty' but if you get a minute sometime, could you please tell me how I do that?"

Email to: abuse@force9.net

Mention the full address of the website. Describe it in broad terms.

Say that it contains items of a personal nature about you and living members of your family (name them), published without your permission.

Say (if you feel in the mood) that you believe that the context in which your names appear give rise to certain implications which may be harmful to your personal reputation as a serious family researcher. That's meaningless verbiage of course but it does no harm to hint that you might have grounds for some sort of legal action without actually threatening anything specific.

Say something along the lines of "I believe this to be contrary to your Acceptable Use Policy and may be in breach of current legislation. Despite having asked the webmaster concerned to remove the relevant material, he has not done so."

However, let's hope the guy just removes the names without you feeling the need to write to abuse@!

[Diane Grant-Salmon]

Thankyou Guy for your detailed explanation, but I'm just trying everything to get my details removed from this person's web site. In my book, it's polite to ask first, but seeing as he didn't ...... it's courtesy to answer an email from me requesting said removal.

Thankyou Peter for the address, I have made a note of it, but I hope it won't be necessary for me to write. I shall write again to this man today, but if I don't receive a reply within the next few days ...... I shall write to the abuse@ address.

I'll let you know the outcome, whether or not I get replies from either party! :(

[Diane Grant-Salmon]

I've just popped back for a quick read (trawling my Essex 1841 looking for Mary Ann!) and collapsed in a heap of laughter at your message! I agree with you 100% but I really don't like the idea of my line of descent being so wrong and my name associated with it at the bottom ...... never mind the fact that he's 'twinned' me with my Big Bruv and aged me more than I am! :(

If you get bored, click on the link to his web site, then click on Ley Family on the left side. Scroll over to the right, until you see The Ley Family Tree at the top of the page, (in fancy writing). Below the writing, is a photo of a 'castle' and underneath it is Nicholas Trengrouse b. 1570, then Nicholas Trengrouse b. 1600 m. Charity Watty. Then their children are listed and my Mary Trengrouse is the last one listed after scrolling over to the right. He doesn't even have her baptism date but she married William Richards.

Straight down from the above couple, is my direct line of descent with all the mistakes in it (William Bowden b. 1847 belongs to Eleanor Hodge and not my Mary Kevern). According to his dates, I'm very surprised that I managed to be born at all! ;)

[AnnB]

Hello Diane

I had to check this out (not being nosey you understand - all in the name of family history ;) ) As soon as I saw mention of the name Ley my curiosity really did get the better of me.

I now wish I hadn't - it has given me a headache :eek: What a mess, what a load of codswallop (for want of a better word) My Leys have some connection to the Leys on this 'weed' (can't call it a tree) I'm not going to bore you with details (I can hear the sigh of relief from here) but all the early stuff on the weed is taken straight from visitations and the like - and he's still managed to get most of that wrong.
I can't even begin to work out in what way 'your' side of the weed is connected to the Ley side :confused:

You have given me a good excuse for a small glass of something....
Best wishes
Ann

PS
Had to just add that I love the picture of Ley Manor House - looks more like a barn conversion with a cheap line in decking and garden furniture
meowww

[Guy Etchells]

"Please forgive me for being a 'numpty' but if you get a minute sometime, could you please tell me how I do that?"

Email to: abuse@force9.net

Mention the full address of the website. Describe it in broad terms.

Say that it contains items of a personal nature about you and living members of your family (name them), published without your permission.

Say (if you feel in the mood) that you believe that the context in which your names appear give rise to certain implications which may be harmful to your personal reputation as a serious family researcher. That's meaningless verbiage of course but it does no harm to hint that you might have grounds for some sort of legal action without actually threatening anything specific.

Say something along the lines of "I believe this to be contrary to your Acceptable Use Policy and may be in breach of current legislation. Despite having asked the webmaster concerned to remove the relevant material, he has not done so."

However, let's hope the guy just removes the names without you feeling the need to write to abuse@!


Sorry but if someone took such vindictive action against me I would sign up to every free website going and plaster the tree everywhere.
There would be so many copies on the internet it would take years to view them all that alone have them removed.

The person has done nothing unlawful, if requests do not result in the tree being removed forget it.
Cheers
Guy

[Peter Goodey]

I'm just suggesting a way to achieve results if he doesn't agree. It depends how strongly she feels about it. I really don't think it's for you or me to tell her how strongly she feels.

[Guy Etchells]

I understood that, however I suggested that following such procedures could actually be totally counterproductive.
If the person is not amenable to requests, trying to force his hand will not achieve anything.
Cheers
Guy

[Diane Grant-Salmon]

Hello Diane
I can't even begin to work out in what way 'your' side of the weed is connected to the Ley side :confused:

You have given me a good excuse for a small glass of something....
Best wishes
Ann
I'm sorry about your headache Ann! If you want another excuse for a small glass of something, if you scroll over to the left of my husband's name, you will find the name Amanda Ley b. 1960. She is descended from a John Ley b. 1730 d. 1789 who married Jane Trengrouse b. 1742. A very distant connection! ;)

[Diane Grant-Salmon]

Hi Peter & Guy,

Thank you both for your responses ..... I'll 'bow out' now from this thread, as I didn't intend for it to cause any sort of 'friction' between people who hold different views to me.

[Peter Goodey]

"If the person is not amenable to requests, trying to force his hand will not achieve anything."

Who is talking about forcing his hand? The man is subject to the acceptable use policy of his ISP. Diane was interested in a second string to her bow and I suggested writing to the ISP mentioning the AUP and made some tongue in cheek suggestions about the wording - tongue in cheek because I knew perfectly well that Diane isn't the sort of lady to actually put it in those terms.

In any case she doesn't agree with either of us so discussion over.

[Guy Etchells]

No friction Diane, just different opinions.
Cheers
Guy

[Diane Grant-Salmon]

I have just received this message, via Genes Reunited site, in response to my second email requesting the removal of the three names.

From : Dennis
Subject : Re - Nicholas Trengrouse

Dear Diane
Sorry about putting you on my Website I have removed you now.
I never wanted to offend you
Regards Dennis

We are now showing as a big, white empty square. :)

[Dennis Harker]

I note that brief mention of identity theft was made earlier in this thread.

There was an article the other day on the BBC - can't remember if it was on NEWS24 or one of the other News programmes. However, it was talking about how easy it is to get personal details and then use these to draw money from banks etc.

If you are drawing just a small amount of money then most banks will ask a few simple security questions without needing any form of id. These questions often include mother's maiden name, date of birth, place of birth, etc. etc. All four major banks were found wanting, handed over money to the investigator and have responded negatively to the BBC's follow up.

On the strength of this I have removed family trees that I had made available on my free Wanadoo webspace for other family members and contacts. It would have been possible to password protect them I suppose but to what stength? People who steal ids go to great lengths to get personal details.

At the moment I have left my tree on Genes Reunited as it is sort-of protected from general prying eyes. However, my subscription to this service has not produced any real results over the last six months and I may remove my tree and stop using it.

I'm not paranoid but do take normal procedures to prevent phishing, scams and id theft and this latest article on the Beeb made me realise that publishing such details on open websites may make it easier for id theft to occur.

Just my two-penn'orth.

[Dennis Harker]

P.S. I am not the Dennis referred to in Diane's post above!!

[Guy Etchells]

I note that brief mention of identity theft was made earlier in this thread.

There was an article the other day on the BBC - can't remember if it was on NEWS24 or one of the other News programmes. However, it was talking about how easy it is to get personal details and then use these to draw money from banks etc.

If you are drawing just a small amount of money then most banks will ask a few simple security questions without needing any form of id. These questions often include mother's maiden name, date of birth, place of birth, etc. etc. All four major banks were found wanting, handed over money to the investigator and have responded negatively to the BBC's follow up.

On the strength of this I have removed family trees that I had made available on my free Wanadoo webspace for other family members and contacts. It would have been possible to password protect them I suppose but to what stength? People who steal ids go to great lengths to get personal details.

At the moment I have left my tree on Genes Reunited as it is sort-of protected from general prying eyes. However, my subscription to this service has not produced any real results over the last six months and I may remove my tree and stop using it.

I'm not paranoid but do take normal procedures to prevent phishing, scams and id theft and this latest article on the Beeb made me realise that publishing such details on open websites may make it easier for id theft to occur.

Just my two-penn'orth.

Yes such stories are often thrown around to scare the niave.
It is not that easy to get money from UK banks and they are responsible for any losses inccurred through lax security.

Banks have known since the early 1970s that any security using the subjects you mentioned is worse than useless and would come under the heading of Negligence.

Cheers
Guy

[Diane Grant-Salmon]

At the moment I have left my tree on Genes Reunited as it is sort-of protected from general prying eyes. However, my subscription to this service has not produced any real results over the last six months and I may remove my tree and stop using it.


I'm sorry that you haven't had much success with contacts on the GenesReunited site, as I have found quite a few. Only two days ago, a new 2nd cousin found me. |woohoo|

If you change your mind about removing your Tree, you could do this if you want to protect your privacy a little. If you change your name to Living (forename) Individual (surname) born Somewhere in a year only of birth, then your name wouldn't show in a blanket search.

[Dennis Harker]

Guy,

It wasn't just a story being thrown around. The report shown actually filmed (secretly) the investigator going into the various banks and carrying out the transaction with reasonable ease without any form of photo id. It seemed to be very easy for the investigator to withdraw cash from an account which wasn't his own. The banks' response was that this must be an isolated case - each used the same response - perhaps a ready pro-forma for such an instance. Banks are likely to claim that it is the individual's negligence for publishing what is used as security information for accounts - their terms and conditions make this clear in the small print and they have already been taken to task for refusing to pay up over some losses as a result of identity theft.

There are millions of pounds stolen using identity theft each year - I'm just trying to make it harder for them to get my identity. Use a site such as 192.com to see how easy it is to get address details of living people unless they have taken the positive action of opting out (check your electoral registration form). There is obviously a compromise level to be found, one which enables hobbies like geneaology (inc. helping others) to continue whilst keeping your individual identity details reasonably secure. I did think about using a pseudonym for my id on this site but felt that it would look as though I might have something to hide on a site such as this.

Diane, thanks for the suggestion I will look more closely at that and perhaps take up the suggestion but would it affect hot matches etc.? My disappointment with GR is really down to the contacts that have appeared for my name. A good number have appeared in hot matches, etc. and one even appears to have me listed. I have sent these contacts a message, using the site, (sometimes with a 2nd message from me) only to receive no reply whatsoever. I sometimes wonder why they have joined the group?

However, I do still have six months to go on the subscription and hope that, as the winter draws in, more contacts may come to light and bring results.

[Chasing Caseys]

Hi Dennis

I think i said on here previously that i have omitted anyone living because anyone trying to contact me through genesre wouldnt know me anyway but would know my grandparents as they are the links worldwide for me. If someone is looking for me they will find me on friendsre.
You may find that a lot of people havnt renewed thier memberships as the price has gone up and like you people have become disilusioned and thats why there hasnt been a response also others arent on it as much as me, being nosey ! As for hot matches it shouldnt affect that unless the sir name you are looking for isnt running through the line and only you have it (?) ,- i have confused myself there !
I have been on genesre for a few years (?) now and only in the last few months been contacted from people in New Zealand Australia and Canada re my English side and was well worth the wait. I found closer family in the begining that i only heard about and we are in daily contact now its as though we have known each other all our lives. Just recently my dads cousin contacted me. She lives in L.A and we had a marathon 5 hours on line together which resulted in me going to bed at 3.30 am !
So hang on in there its worth it even if a few late nights are involved. ;)


If someone is looking for me they will find me on friendsre.
opppssssss no they wont i havnt renewed my membership :D

[Guy Etchells]

Guy,

It wasn't just a story being thrown around. The report shown actually filmed (secretly) the investigator going into the various banks and carrying out the transaction with reasonable ease without any form of photo id. It seemed to be very easy for the investigator to withdraw cash from an account which wasn't his own. The banks' response was that this must be an isolated case - each used the same response - perhaps a ready pro-forma for such an instance. Banks are likely to claim that it is the individual's negligence for publishing what is used as security information for accounts - their terms and conditions make this clear in the small print and they have already been taken to task for refusing to pay up over some losses as a result of identity theft.

There are millions of pounds stolen using identity theft each year - I'm just trying to make it harder for them to get my identity. Use a site such as 192.com to see how easy it is to get address details of living people unless they have taken the positive action of opting out (check your electoral registration form). There is obviously a compromise level to be found, one which enables hobbies like geneaology (inc. helping others) to continue whilst keeping your individual identity details reasonably secure. I did think about using a pseudonym for my id on this site but felt that it would look as though I might have something to hide on a site such as this.



Having seen how many of these TV shows are put together I would believe it as much as anything written in the Beano.
They are transmitted as scare stories to enhance viewing figures.

As to the banks trying to absolve themselves of blame forget it there have already been precedents set for the courts to rule against the bank.
Any half compentent solicitor would jump at the chance to gain such a case, easy money.

If you actually look at the figure of such frauds the majority are down to family members or close friends who already know the information and the person concerned the next highest proportion are the dustbin divers. Cases of such fraud using information gain from the internet are so low they do not even figure in the oficial listings.

By the way don't think opting out of the electoral register prevents people seeing your details the full register (including those who have opted out is available locally) and it is to sent to whoever requests a copy after ten years.
Cheers
Guy

[Dennis Harker]

http://www.identity-theft.org.uk/index.htm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/4311693.stm

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/money/main.jhtml?xml=/money/2003/03/12/cmfake12.xml

http://www.cifas.org.uk/identity_fraud_is_theft_serious.asp

I personally will continue to take great care over my identity details particularly where accounts have relied on such security as Date of Birth, Mother's maiden name and so forth.

[Guy Etchells]

http://www.identity-theft.org.uk/index.htm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/4311693.stm

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/money/main.jhtml?xml=/money/2003/03/12/cmfake12.xml

http://www.cifas.org.uk/identity_fraud_is_theft_serious.asp

I personally will continue to take great care over my identity details particularly where accounts have relied on such security as Date of Birth, Mother's maiden name and so forth.

The first site says
Criminals commit identity theft by stealing your personal information. This is often done by taking documents from your rubbish or by making contact with you and pretending to be from a legitimate organisation.

The second
How to avoid ID theft
Do not use your mother's maiden name or place of birth as a security password
Check your credit record annually
If you move, make sure you let your bank know
Shred or rip-up post before throwing it in the bin
Never use the same password for all your accounts
Do not carry address details in your wallet
Source: Which?

The third
"People are increasingly taking jobs in banks solely to commit fraud," says detective chief inspector Tony Thomas of the City of London fraud squad.
"Once there, they have access to the internal workings of the bank. Account numbers, security systems . . . the potential for fraud is huge. These people are also targeting legitimate employees and bribing them to give information.

The fourth is an organisation that earns its money protecting people from ID theft and markets itself accordingly.

The official Home Office crime figures for England & Wales show all types of fraud and forgery (not just ID theft) offences running at 1.5 per 1000 population (for the year 2004).
This is small compared with Violence against the person 4.5 ; Vehicle theft 10.6 ; Burglary 4.0.

Do not allow scaremongers to make yourself paranoid.
Cheers
Guy

[Steve Ley]

Hi Diane and AnnB, As you both do not accept messages, i will post here, Please get in touch if your LEY's have any connection to Nottinghamshire. I would very interested to hear from you.

Thanks, Steve.

[Diane Grant-Salmon]

Hi Steve,

Unfortunately, I have no connections to them at all. The family mentioned in this thread married into the TRENGROUSE family in Cornwall.

[AnnB]

Hi Diane and AnnB, As you both do not accept messages, i will post here, Please get in touch if your LEY's have any connection to Nottinghamshire. I would very interested to hear from you.

Thanks, Steve.
Hello Steve

All My Leys are Devonian, don't think they knew what travel was ;)

My grandfather was the one who broke the mould when he moved to London - now I've come full circle and am back 'home'. Should you find any connection to Devon, let me know.

Best wishes
Ann

[Steve Ley]

Thanks you two for your replys:)




Steve.

[MaryFrances]

I recently found on Ancestry that someone had taken photos. and information from my tree without contacting me and I cannot not see where we are connected. Her tree, although a Public Tree, is just full of "Living Relative". Despite three e-mails, I have had no reply from her and Ancestry said that, as my tree was public, she was at liberty to take whatever she wanted.
I was very upset and have now made my tree a private one.
MaryFrances.

[tbreaktim]

Excuse me for butting in!!
I will admit that I am inexperienced in this family tree researching, so I am prepared to be shot down!
I am at a loss to understand why people are getting so upset over the fact that someone else has got some details wrong! Surely this researching of family trees is a "recreational" thing...or am I wrong? I would have thought that it would be so much more pleasant if you could could point out where this person has gone wrong and offer some help in putting him right. I doubt that he has got it wrong deliberately or in an effort to cause anyone harm!
I am interested in the claim that information could be used in identity theft, this is something that I had not considered. How could it be so used?
My main point is that as long as you are happy that your research is correct why worry if someone elses is wrong?
I say all this in a genuine attempt to understand this thread.
Regards
tbreaktim

[MarkJ]

There have been many discussions on this forum with regard to the various issues mentioned.

On the identity theft point, most "security" questions - the sort asked when you sign up for online banking etc for example - ask stuff like "What was your mothers maiden name?". A question such as that, when coupled with a bit of thought, can be easily solved with a squint around a family tree or the GRO index. Personally, I find those kind of "security" questions totally pointless. Just as one should never use relatively simple (to find out) questions such as "What is your dog/cat called?".

As someone with an interest in (computer) security, I have seen how easy it is to take hold of someone elses account with nothing more than a passing knowledge of that person. Likewise, I have seen how easily people can be tricked into giving out all their details using what is called "social engineering".

My views on other people using data from online trees has been mentioned many times on the forum, so I won't go into that again - but I do appreciate that other people have differing views :)

Mark