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steve18
14-07-2013, 10:20 AM
I received a Marriage Certificate from Oldham for James Smithies who married Sarah Evans at
St Marys in Oldham on 4th December 1842.I was looking for his Father on it and to my surprise
Fathers name and surname is blank ? Does this mean he did not know who his Father was ?
Because of this my Smithies Ancestry has hit a Brickwall.
Best regards
steve18

Waitabit
14-07-2013, 10:29 AM
No it doesn't. He may not have known, but also he may have chosen not to give Fathers name if he was at all miffed with him.
I have at least one where the Father is listed as deceased after a Family upset. I didn't live back then so cannot comment on it.

Other reasons also possible,..he was starting anew- his own reasons, new name or variation, or just plain didn't want to be listed with those he did know of.

do you have his birth year, baptism or have you looked to find possible birth?

Raffaele
14-07-2013, 10:36 AM
Possibly, but not for certain. Remember how many people were illiterate back then and may not have understood the priest's question. Far from the end however. The 1841 census has a lot of James Smithies, and given the 1841 age round up, these are possibles especially as in two locations there appear to be son, father, grandfather lines all James Smithies.

Genealogy is really detective work, piecing together information, the further back you go, the more difficult it becomes.

I would look for the parish records of this marriage for any further information first.

There is a Lancashire Society, much used on this site which might yield some information.

steve18
14-07-2013, 10:47 AM
I have his Baptism at St Leonards in Oldham on 23rd March 1800.I never thought that he could
of fell out or been miffed at his Father.On the internet his birth does not give any of his parents
names and I thought if I send for his birth certificate that would be blank too?
Regards
steve18

Megan Roberts
14-07-2013, 11:04 AM
I have his Baptism at St Leonards in Oldham on 23rd March 1800.I never thought that he could
of fell out or been miffed at his Father.On the internet his birth does not give any of his parents
names and I thought if I send for his birth certificate that would be blank too?
Regards
steve18

Birth certificates did not come into being before 1837. Before then you are totally reliant on what you can find in the parish registers, but you need to remember that there was (a) no legal reason to baptise and (b) there were no set rules on where your child would be baptised. I have family groups where they chop and change baptisms between the parish church and non-conformist chapels.

steve18
14-07-2013, 11:13 AM
Thank you I did not think that he could be illiterate.He was a Weaver,his Father also James
was a cotton steam loom weaver born 1839.I will look at the parish records as you suggest.
Thanks again
Regards
steve18

steve18
14-07-2013, 11:20 AM
Thank you I did not know that Birth certifates did not come into being before 1837.
Regards
steven18

Raffaele
14-07-2013, 12:50 PM
I have his Baptism at St Leonards in Oldham on 23rd March 1800.I never thought that he could
of fell out or been miffed at his Father.On the internet his birth does not give any of his parents
names and I thought if I send for his birth certificate that would be blank too?
Regards
steve18

Does that fit with his age on the marriage certificate. Was he a widow?
A very late marriage, quite unusual.

steve18
14-07-2013, 1:26 PM
Hi! On the Marriage certificate in the Age column it says Full and he was a Bachelor.In 1841 Census
I found him Aged 40 born 1801 in Lancashire Reg District Ashton & Oldham and Parish Ashton-Under-Lyne
Regards
steve18

Waitabit
15-07-2013, 1:08 AM
Hi Steve18, forgive my questions but I don't know that part of Lancashire, is this your James in 1851? Knowing if so may help to find a birth//baptism for him if we are sure of his age & birthplace.

James Smithies 51 handloom weaver of silk b. Middleton. (close to Oldham)
Sarah Smithies 43 " "
Sarah Smithies 20 " "
William Smithies 17 " "
James Smithies 12 " "
Elizabeth Smithies 10 winder of silk
Mary Ellen Smithies 1
HO107; Piece: 2242; Folio: 534; Page: 11;
....................
Deaths Dec 1853
Smithies James Oldham 8d-441

Sarah Smithies W.(widow)?
Age: 53 c.1808
Relation: Head-grocer
born: Halewood, Lancashire, England (image reads as Hopwood)
Civil Parish: Middleton
Ecclesiastical parish: St Leonard
Town: Middleton
Sarah Smithies 53
Mary E Smithies 11
RG 9; Piece: 3027; Folio: 28; Page: 13
..........
The most similar I've found for a James in the area all have spouse & Family with him, one being the Master in a workhouse.
Can you tell us please which is the one you found in 1841?

Waitabit
15-07-2013, 1:34 AM
This Baptism may apply to the chap I mentioned above

James Smithies -Baptism
Baptism Date: 23 Mar 1800
Parish: Middleton, St Leonard
Father: John Smithies
Mother: Sarah Smithies

helachau
15-07-2013, 7:45 AM
1841 Census (ref HO107 544 12/8 8) - SMITHERS

The name has been crossed through - could be SMITHERS or quite possibly SMITHIES - James is a Weaver. But next door are a John and Sarah Smithies - possible candidates for the parents of the James Smithies identified in post#11

helachau
15-07-2013, 7:54 AM
The 1841 family transcribed as SMITHERS wd appear to be the 1851 SMITHIES family at #10 above.

Raffaele
15-07-2013, 8:18 AM
Whilst not wishing to be difficult or offensive I have to comment that this looks to me at first glance to be grapsing at straws.

The James Smithies found on the census do not look like the James Smithies married in 1842.
As I found on a census review there are a number of suitable James Smithies.

I think the author needs to tell us how he got back to James Smithies married in 1842.

The birth in 1840 looks right for James Smithie on the census but the James married 1842 could have been his son.

helachau
15-07-2013, 8:34 AM
The 1841 SMITHERS/SMITHIES reference was intended to identify that James with a John and Sarah next door - all of which could fit the baptism of 1800.
Wasn't treating this James as the subject of the '42 marriage.

Waitabit
15-07-2013, 10:47 AM
Oh dear, thanks guys, I think we really need to chat with Steve18 & find out who if any of the above are definitely his people.

steve18
15-07-2013, 10:24 PM
H1! Absolutely Brilliant! Yes this looks like James Smithies Father John Smithies and he was married to
a Sarah same as his Father.I have John Smithies in Merchant Navy Seaman Records 1835-1941
Birth year 1800 MILITARY SERVICE But I wonder what conflict he saw? or was in? As far as I know there
is a village called TONGE in Middleton and this is an Ancestral Village and Most of the people there were
SMITHIES and they were Silk Weavers.There was also a Tonge Hall which set on fire a few years ago and
Archeologists are digging around it at this moment in time.I have a William Smithies place of birth
Tonge Hall in 1752 but I do not know yet if he was a relation.Nealy all Smithies were Baptised,Married
or Buried at St Leonards in the Parish of Middleton.Some Smithies married HOPWOODS.I have a James
Smithers born 1787 in Tonge who enlisted in the 1st Royal Dragoons in July 1804 who fought at Waterloo
where he was wounded and taken prisoner.It does get quite addictive doesn't it? Again thank you for your
help.I will now look for Johns Marriage to Sarah
Best regards
steve18

steve18
15-07-2013, 11:03 PM
H!! As I stated earlier As I understand it Tonge was an Ancestral Village in Middleton and they were all Silk Weavers
And nearly all the people were Smithies so it wouldn't be unusual to have a person with the same
name living next door but it sure makes it hard if you are looking for your relatives as you could easily
slip up and make a mistake and it would not be your Family Line?
regards
steve18

steve18
15-07-2013, 11:27 PM
Hi! Raffaele, How I got back to James Smithies in 1842.I have John Smithies and Mary Loftus Marriage
Certificate 14th Jan 1893 married at St Wilfreds in Hulme Lancashire on the Certificate is his Father
James Smithies (deceased) who was a mill overlooker .There must of been a mill in or near Middleton in
Lancashire .Mary Loftus I found her Baptism 25th Jan 1871 in Tuam in Galway.Her Fathers name was John
Loftus But her Mothers name was Ellen Greahan I can not find a Marriage so I assume she was illegitimate
but took her Fathers Name? a Mystery?
regards
steve18

steve18
06-08-2013, 11:19 PM
H1! I have been looking for weeks for John and Sarahs Marriage I also posted it on Ancestryaid Looking for John smithies
and Sarahs Marriage.I have found the Baptism you mention above on lds site and it says 23rd March 1800
at St Leonards in Middleton James Smithies Son of James Smithies NOT JOHN ? and Sarah now I am looking
for James and Sarahs Wedding
Regards
STEVE18

Ajwyorks
08-08-2013, 4:58 PM
.I have John Smithies and Mary Loftus Marriage
Certificate 14th Jan 1893 married at St Wilfreds in Hulme Lancashire on the Certificate is his Father
James Smithies (deceased) who was a mill overlooker

I started with the above and found James and Mary (b Ireland) in 1901 when James was said to be 28 and born Middleton.
1891 found John b 1874 in Middleton with father James (b 1839 Middleton) and mother Betty (b1838 Middleton) living in Hulme.
Going back through the censuses the family can be found in Middleton and there is a marriage 21 Sep 1856, St Leonard's, Middleton between James Smithies, a weaver, and Betty Hardman, which gives James's father as James, a weaver (admittedly both bride and groom say they are 20!!).
1851 finds James aged 12 with father James and mother Sarah post #10; 1841 James aged 2 same family post #12.

I can find a marriage 31 Jan 1819 in St Mary's Bury between James Smithies, a weaver, and Sarah Wellens; a burial in Middleton of Sarah Smithies wife of James, 7 Oct 1836 age 36; a marriage of James Smithies, widower, a weaver, and Sarah Worthington, spinster, 6 Feb 1837, Manchester Cathedral; any of these might be this family. However, I do feel that the marriage you came up with in 1842 is of an illegitimate James (hence no father given) and not this family.

Looking at the Middleton baptisms on Ancestry James baptised 23 Mar 1800 is 'the son of John Smithies, weaver, and Sarah his wife' - it's been transcribed wrongly.
On Lancashire Online Parish Clerk (www.lan-opc.org.uk) there is a marriage 13 Sep 1795 between John Smithies of Tong and Sarah Hilton of Middleton - a possibility