Liverpool Sailors Home and Sailors and Fireman Card

[Chasing Caseys]

Where to begin !

My gt grandfather William Hartley Donaldson worked the fishing boats in Buckie, Lossie and anywhere he could get work and when he wasnt doing that he was a Merchant seaman when he could get a voyage. He was based mostly in Aberdeen at Mearns St and South Market St Sailors and Fishermans Homes.

I have a Sailors and Fireman Union Card North Shields Branch - entry date 3rd Sept 1902, last stamp date July 1904. Does anyone know what this is and why he was there ? all the stamps in the book say "paid".

I have a letter written to him from Liverpool Sailors Home written by T. Williams Lay Missionary dated 1897. I have looked on the Liverpool site and havent found mention of him (the missionary).

I have lots of letters WITH envelopes ! so know some of the ships he sailed on.
1897-8 The Windsor Park to Valparaiso Chile - this is the only one ive found anything about via the ship modellers web site.
1899 it says Boat Leader I N S no 1314 Stromness - does anyone know what that number is ? I asked Newfoundland but they couldnt help me.
1900 Schooner Mary in Danzig Prussia and he stayed with her in Sunderland.
1902 SS Ottowa in Gothernburg Sweeden
1903 SS Weehawken in Philladelphia USA Copenhagen and North Shields
1905 SS Thomas Wayman c/o messrs Wood Taylor Brown Leadenhall St or c/o T F Marshall and sons ship brokers Sunderland so i dont know where that one went. I know Greenwich have information on the years ending with 5 so they may have something on this. I did go there on a whim on my way home once but i think i gave them the wrong ship name ! and they didnt have anything on just his name.

So how do i find his "Muster Roll ?" or what ever it was that would identify him.
After 1905 i know nothing of him and its thought he died at sea.. He didnt marry my gt grandmother and those family stories has it that he could have been pushed overboard by the man she did marry !!

Im totally stumped on this one. The NA hasnt been particulaly helpful as the cards they have for William Donaldsons dont give much away after paying lots of £3.50,s for downloads ! and i cant identify him from them.

I will post this on another part of this site as well for maximum coverage !!

Hoping someone can help !!

Tracey

[Geoffers]

William Hartley Donaldson worked the fishing boats ........I have a Sailors and Fireman Union Card North Shields Branch - entry date 3rd Sept 1902, last stamp date July 1904. Does anyone know what this is and why he was there ? all the stamps in the book say "paid".
The union is now known as The National Union of Seamen, have you tried them to see if they have any records from this period?

The index to marine deaths is available on 1837 online
It may be worth a browse.

Geoffers

[Chasing Caseys]

Hi Geoffers

Yes i had looked on that a while a go but thanks because it has jogged my memory to look for someone else on it ! .......so many sights to remember :)

[Chasing Caseys]

and sorry, no i havent tried The National Union of Seamen. Going about Maritime is new to me the furthest i have got is going to Greenwich and asking questions ! and theyre very nice and helpful in the Library i just need to go back when they are open - unlike my last off chance visit :rolleyes:

[Wirral]

Although it may not be any help in finding your man, I have a copy of a very good book called "Mersey Mariners" by Bob Evans, ISBN 19012310504, published 2002 by Countyvise Ltd. It only cost £7 when I bought it a couple of years ago.
It's great for putting "flesh on the bones".
Just found a photo of the Reverend Edgar Lambert and the Mersey Mission, taken in 1895. It includes a Thomas Williams. Good beard, but not as good as the chap standing next to him - looks a bit like W.C.Grace!

[Chasing Caseys]

Ah......... the T.Williams lay preacher in my first sermon! looking at what Geoffers suggested i think Warwick University may have the info i need.

[Chasing Caseys]

Wirral....the book is still available and hasnt gone up in price :eek: even better there are two used ones for sale on Amazon at £2.75 or £4.99 respectively so i might treat myself ! worth it just to see the beard :D

[Wirral]

Hi Tracey
My copy is the reprinted & updated 2002 one. It was first published 1997. Unfortunately, like many books of this type there is no index. See page 75 for Mr Green of the impressive beard!

[Chasing Caseys]

Cant wait to see the specimin ! I will also see if my local library has a copy :D

[Geoffers]

TNA has a research guide which might be worth browsing for inspiration:
http://www.catalogue.nationalarchives.gov.uk/RdLeaflet.asp?sLeafletID=257

Do you know when this chap was born? Could he have continued at sea to 1939? If so, try searching TNA's catalogue:
http://www.catalogue.nationalarchives.gov.uk/search.asp

Enter Donaldson W H in the first field and in the department or series code, enter BT372. If you ever pass TNA, it might be worth poppng in just for a browse.

Geoffers

[Chasing Caseys]

Geoffers

What a star !! followed your instructions and got this

Covering dates 1913 - 1972
Scope and content R771257 DONALDSON W H 11/10/1939 LOSSIEMOUTH
Access conditions Open on Transfer
Closure status Open Document, Open Description
Held by The National Archives, Kew
Restrictions on use

What is scope and content no ?
Im so excited im almost shaking :rolleyes: I do know he was in Lossiemouth a lot from the letters i have. the only thing is that no one knows when he died i assume it was sometime in or before 1920 ish. Maybe he didnt and thats why no one wants to talk about him.
I find the NA site a bit confusing as there are so many offshoots to search and forget where i started from. Do you think there would be any downloadable info based on this ? I have some that i got a while ago but they didnt identify him to me. Ops...... nearly forgot he was born 1874.


A massive thank you :D

[Chasing Caseys]

Also due to my new found confidence on NA ;) did a search on Donaldson W and there are a few other maybe,s here but at least you have given me a HUGE start and there arent too many to look through.

[Geoffers]

What a star !! followed your instructions and got this
Covering dates 1913 - 1972
Scope and content R771257 DONALDSON W H 11/10/1939 LOSSIEMOUTH
What is scope and content no ?
The scope and content is just what is covered by the record - or in this case, who is covered by the record. you'll find some more on the TNA link:
http://www.catalogue.nationalarchives.gov.uk/rdleaflet.asp?sLeafletURL=http%3A%2F%2Fwww%2Ecatal ogue%2Enationalarchives%2Egov%2Euk%2Fleaflets%2Fri 2197%2Ehtm&lBack=-1
(it's right down at the bottom)


continued........

[Geoffers]

part 2.......

The R771257 number is just the discharge number, R at the front indicates he was a British Seaman.



Im so excited im almost shaking. I do know he was in Lossiemouth
Don't get too excited, it might well be another chap with the same initials - but I think it may still be worth a browse. Your mention of Lossiemouth stood out when I searched the catalogue looking for all W Donaldsons.

continued......

[Geoffers]

part 3......


I find the NA site a bit confusing as there are so many offshoots to search and forget where i started from. Do you think there would be any downloadable info based on this? I have some that i got a while ago but they didnt identify him to me. Ops...... nearly forgot he was born 1874.
Born 1874 - he'd be 65 in 1939, so it's not out of the question that this is your man. The URL I posted above, or the one I posted previously for leaflet 257 are useful places to start reading. Other than that, get hold of a paperback copy of 'Tracing Your Ancestors in the Public Record Office.' (thought the title may have changed to reflect the fact that it is now called The National Archives). Sit down in a comfy chair with a big mug of tea and browse for inspiration.

If he was still alive in 1939, have you thought of searching the index of wills from then on - it's sometimes a good way of tracing when someone died.

Good luck
Geoffers

[Chasing Caseys]

Hello Geoffers
I really cant thank you enough. My research for the last 3 years has been Scottish based which thanks to scotlandspeople, Moray, scottishdocuments local history libraries ect.......has made it a smoothish ride and i have been succesful in finding my family and connections to it - even though i sound like i have never done this before im a wizz with Scotland !. My English side which i have only just started is more difficult as there is no site you can view actual certificates (exc census) and have to do more leg work and sending of for cerificates. William flitted between Scotland, England and the rest of the world as did his sisters. Although William was born here he wasnt "English" but his work records seem to be kept here
I did print a lot off NA site and that is my prefered reading on the train now although The Daily Mail wont suffer becase of it and it is all sinking in slowly but surely and i have prepared a file to take to NA and Greenwich for the 1905 archives. Without your help i would still be going round in circles.

Once again many many thanks and i knew (hoped !) eventually you would save my day - reading your other knowledgable replies to questions.

Tracey

[Chasing Caseys]

The scope and content is just what is covered by the record - or in this case, who is covered by the record. you'll find some more on the TNA link:
http://www.catalogue.nationalarchives.gov.uk/rdleaflet.asp?sLeafletURL=http%3A%2F%2Fwww%2Ecatal ogue%2Enationalarchives%2Egov%2Euk%2Fleaflets%2Fri 2197%2Ehtm&lBack=-1
(it's right down at the bottom)

Just did a click of link and this is part of my prefered reading !!

[Geoffers]

Just in case Kew is a long way to travel for you - and in case you are eager to look at the record of W H Donaldson, you can use the reference to order a copy of the document online. It will cost, but this might be weighed against the cost of travelling to Kew. It's a matter or priorities and chance as to whether this is your chap.

Either way, good luck and may I ask if you would mind posting the outcome here? It's just being nosy, but I get curious about how things work out with many of the queries posted on these forums - and if it isn't the correct record, it may give a chance to think of another course of action.

Best wishes
Geoffers

[Chasing Caseys]

Morning Geoffers

Luckily Kew is a shortish tube ride from where i work and am going to try and find the time to go this week . I havent been to the archives before so i hope and from what i read they are very helpful. I did mail Warwick University last night so am hoping they get back to me today (!).
And i will definitly post the outcome after all that !

Many thanks

Tracey

[Chasing Caseys]

Reply from Warwick...........................

Thank you for your email of 11 September 2005.

Although the Modern Records Centre has records of the National Union of Seamen and its predecessors including the National Sailors and Firemen's Union we do not have any membership records so we cannot give you any more information. We do have a webpage about seamen and this can be found at : http://www2.warwick.ac.uk/services/library/mrc/holdings/genealogy/seamen/

I am sorry that we can't be of more help to you.

Yours sincerely
Andrew L Morrison

The site looked promising ( late last night anyway !) and the web address supplied is how i found them :rolleyes: .................... :( so still of to N/A and by the time i find him i will be going to a different sort of N/A !

[wilkybob]

Hi Tracy
This might interest you, the Liverpool sailors home burned down on 29th April 1860 killing a police-fireman
details...
At about 2.00am P.C. Hardaker No 384 mounted a long ladder with the object Of smashing some Of the windows as an inlet for the water on the arcade side Of the building. He had no sooner ascended when a crash was heard and a shout Of horror.
About a foot Of the top Of the ladder had broken Off and the Officer was precipitated to the ground, he fell flat on his back on the flags, and was killed on the spot. He was conveyed to the Southern Hospital. It was found his skull was fractured and he had other serious injuries.

[Chasing Caseys]

Hello Wilkybob


I have a letter written to him from Liverpool Sailors Home written by T. Williams Lay Missionary dated 1897.

They must have re built it then ?

Tracey