View Full Version : Finding Mother's name
02-05-2012, 9:49 AM
Hi i have come to a complete stop with the family tree. I have a copy of my 3x great grandfathers marriage certificate, however it doesn't list a name for his mother. I need his mother's name to further my research on my 3x great grandfather and his siblings.
Any ideas on how i can find this? I have been in touch with the parish where he was born and still no luck there.
Kind regards Janette
02-05-2012, 10:24 AM
Perhaps you could post some detail of the marrriage and your 3xgt Grandfather's name at least then someone may be able to point you in a direction. The more information you post the more likely that someone will come up with something.
02-05-2012, 10:28 AM
Even a year & area would help. You may be 18 or 80 which makes 3xgt.Grandfathers time span a lot different.
Have you tried online Parish records?
02-05-2012, 12:07 PM
hi thank you for both replies. My 3x great grandfather's name was Thomas Johnston born 1825 in County Tyrone. He has 4 siblings Robert, Margaret, Anne, & Martha all settled in America. Thomas settled in Croydon,Surrey. He married a lady named Eliza Dyler Houcher born 1837 died 1904.
He died in 1903 in the Croydon area. His father's name was James, i dont have a date of birth or death for him. Because Thomas was born in Ireland its proving very difficult to trace his parents as i believe most of the Irish records were destroyed in a fire,1922.
Hope this is enough info for some help
02-05-2012, 12:29 PM
Hi Janette - welcome to Brit-Gen,
You may find this (http://www.parishchest.com/ireland_2012_edition__P82575) to be of help in knowing where to look when tracing Irish ancestors.
Meanwhile, although this is a brickwall for you, I am moving it across to the Ireland forum so that it may attract the attention of our members who are more experienced in Irish research. :smile5:
02-05-2012, 12:36 PM
Hello and thank you for the welcome. That would be great thank you, how do i access the Ireland Forum?
02-05-2012, 12:41 PM
... how do i access the Ireland Forum?I have moved the thread so it is already there, but for future reference, follow this...
Forum Home Page (http://www.british-genealogy.com/forums/forum.php) (Scroll down until you get to...) > County Forums including Ireland, Scotland, Wales and British Islands > Ireland - Counties (Chapman Code - IRL) :smile5:
02-05-2012, 4:26 PM
The problem you are up against is that Thomas’s birth was before the start of statutory birth registration (1864 in Ireland) and so to find him you would need to rely on baptism records (if they have survived). To do that you really need to know his exact denomination and the townland or parish he came from in Tyrone.
I would check all possible UK records for anything that might give a clue as to his origins. Check every UK census. Though mostly it just gives a place of birth as “Ireland”, occasionally you get a more specific place. Check for gravestones, wills, obituaries etc in case they mention his origins. Likewise for the 4 siblings in the US, check their US immigration records, passenger arrival records, US naturalisation records, wills, gravestones, obits and death certs (some US death certs also have parents names on). Any of these may name his place of birth.
Griffiths Valuation for Co Tyrone has about 80 James Johnston entries for 1860, so the name was fairly common there.
If you can find his place of birth, and you know his religious denomination, then the next step would be to search church records. Copies of many are held in PRONI Belfast but are mostly not on-line.
02-05-2012, 6:41 PM
Hi Elwyn and thank you for your reply and the info. Through my 3x great grandfathers military records we do know the family came from a place called aughaloe, Aughnacloy ( Hope i got that right??) in Tyrone. I did write to the minister at the presbyterian church there about records but had no luck. Because they lived in what is now Northern Ireland, i assumed they would not be Catholic.
Could they have been Catholic?
As for Thomas' siblings that is a very long process... i think you can imagine the amount of robert's and Martha's i came across on the immigration records.
I tried a search through Thomas' brother Robert.. he married a lady named Bridget McGurk, but was told by the Minister that they would not have married in Ireland, as Bridget was from Sligo and most probably Catholic. and Robert was from Northern Ireland, would this have been true? If so i may be able to find a marriage for them in the United States
However im not going to give up just yet. Do you think i could get the info over the phone if i called PRONI?
Sorry for all the questions etc but im new to research and trying to cover every avenue
Kind regards Janette
02-05-2012, 9:12 PM
Sounds as though you know where the family did come from and so checking US records is probably not necessary.
Aughaloe is a parish and is generally spelled Aghaloo these days. I searched Griffiths Valuation for James Johnston(e) in that parish in 1860. There were only two, both living very near to each other, which could mean they were related. So perhaps your family?
One lived in the townland of Finglush where he rented a farm, offices (outbuildings) and 27 acres (plot 6 on Griffiths). Today that farm is just off the Finglush Rd, which in turn is off the A28. The other JJ lived at Dunmacmay, right on the border with the Republic, where he rented a farmhouse, outbuildings and 24 acres (plot 6). Today thatís off the Dunmacmay Rd which is also off the A28.
I looked at the 1901 census to see if either farm was still occupied by Johnston(e) families then. Neither was. I then did a sweep to see what Johnston families lived in the general area. There were only 2 or 3, so these might be connected to your family:
Youíll see that they were a mix of Presbyterian (ie probably Scottish origins) and Church of Ireland (Anglican, and therefore possibly English origins). Intermarriage makes it a bit confusing to draw any firm conclusions about their origins. So my advice is to check the records for the Church of Ireland, Methodist and the Presbyterian churches.
With regard to the mixed marriage between Robert and Bridget, there were plenty of mixed marriages in Ireland. So I wouldnít rule that out. However what perhaps the Minister meant was that with one coming from Aughnacloy and the other from Sligo, a hundred miles away, you would ask yourself how likely were they to have met in Ireland. And therefore, they possibly met in the USA.
I did search in the Irish statutory indexes for a marriage for Robert and Bridget but could not see one. However if it was RC, it wouldnít appear in the statutory records if it was before 1864. If it was Protestant it would have been recorded from April 1845 onwards but, as I say, none is listed.
PRONI wonít give you any information over the phone. If they agree to undertake any research for you it will cost you about £16 per 15 minutes. In general they only do simple searches eg look for the baptism of X born 1825 in Y church. They wonít trawl through looking for any Johnstone baptisms in a 10 year period, for example.
Youíll either need to look the records up yourself or get someone to do it for you.
You can write to the churches (as you did) but they are generally inundated with genealogy requests and most either donít respond, or refer you to PRONI. The Church of Ireland leaves it to the Rector/Vicarís discretion whether to assist, but if they do, they charge £19 an hour.
This is what PRONI holds for Aghaloo parish:
C.I. Aghaloo or Caledon (Armagh diocese) Baptisms, 1791-5 and 1801-76; marriages, 1792-5 and 1800-45; burials, 1792-5 and 1800-1939; confirmation lists, 1840-72; vestry minutes, 1691-1807.
Baptisms, 1877-; marriages, 1845-. In local custody
C.I. Brantry (Armagh diocese) [Formed out of Aghaloo, Carnteel and Clonfeacle parishes]
Baptisms, 1844-71; burials, 1846-82; confirmation list, 1873.
Baptisms, 1871-; marriages, 1845-; burials, 1883-; vestry minutes, 1844-. In local custody
M. Caledon Baptisms, 1815-. In local custody
P. Ballymagrane Baptisms, 1851-1985; marriages, 1845-1921.
P. Caledon Baptisms, 1870-1950; marriages, 1848-1932.
P. Minterburn Baptisms, 1829-1950; marriages, 1819-22 and 1830-1911.
R.C. Aghaloo (Caledon) (Armagh diocese) Baptisms, 1846-81; marriages, 1832-82. [Also includes details for the chapel at Aughnacloy in Carnteel parish]
CI = Church of Ireland; M = Methodist; P = Presbyterian & RC = Roman Catholic.
In local custody means that PRONI donít have a copy and the only copy is still held by the church. Presbyterians in Ireland donít bother with the parish system and so which church they attend is just dictated by personal preference, not geography. Consequently you shouldnít assume that they attended the nearest church to where they lived. You would need to check the lot. However itíll be academic for Ballymagrane and Caledon as it doesnít appear that their records go back far enough for your enquiry.
I had a look for wills for your Johnston(e) ancestors and I found this one where James Johnston of Finglush was an executor.
Full Abstract :
The Will of David Johnston late of Feganey in the County of Monaghan Farmer deceased who died 13 December 1859 at same place was proved at Armagh by the oath of John Johnston of Roughan Martin Worthington of Dernabane and James Johnston of Finglush all in the County of Tyrone Farmers the Executors. Effects under £200.
From the will itself, it appears that James Johnston was David Johnstonís nephew. David Johnston appears to have been Presbyterian. (You can see the full will on the PRONI website: http://applications.proni.gov.uk/DCAL_PRONI_WillsCalendar/WillsSearch.aspx).
Presbyterians donít keep burial records but the Church of Ireland does, so you should check those.
03-05-2012, 1:41 PM
ooh my there's a lot to go at there, thank you ! I have checked out the will but i'm sure it's not the James i'm searching for.. he would have been born around 1790, his son Robert was born around 1812-15. So at the time of David's death would have meant James would have been over 60. I have saved a copy of the will, because the Johnston's named, could be related and i may be able to connect them to the family.
I am extremely grateful for all the help i have received so far, in such a short space of time. Can't thank you enough
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