silver chaser

[Maygladwin]

My gr grandfather was a chaser/engraver of silver. Does anyone know whether he would have a "mark" or was that only the privilege of the person who actually made the silver item ? Or would he have made and engraved the item therefore having a "hallmark"? Any help gratefully received.
May

[Victoria]

Hi May,
Only a master silversmith who owned his workshop and was a member of the silversmiths'(or goldsmithgs') guild was entitled to his own mark. It was not necessary for the master silversmith to actually work on a piece that bore his mark. As long as it came out of his shop, he was responsible for it and put his mark on it. Master craftsmen usually had apprentices and perhaps journeymen
working for them.
If your gt.grandfather called himself an engraver, rather than a silversmith, I suspect that he was employed by one of the larger companies that had sprung during 19th century, particularly if he lived in one of the industrial cities such as Sheffield.

Cheers,
Victoria

[Maygladwin]

Thanks Victoria for your detailed reply.
My gr grandfather worked in London, Clerkenwell area and Birmingham,both of which had a big silver trade reputation I believe. Your information is very interesting. There is also a possibility that his surname" Pettit" links him to the French Huegenots who were sometimes involved in the silver trade.
I have found him in Slaters Trade directory for Birmingham 1852 listed as a Chaser, I wonder if he was working for someone else would he have his name in a directory?
kind regards
May

[Ladkyis]

He could have had his own "workshop" and worked on commissions from silversmiths. The bigger silver manufacturers would sometimes put work out to independent operators when they were rushed or had a large order, especially if it was not a special customer or just an odd item.
Just my own two pennorth

Ann

[Peter Goodey]

This is true.

Whether he worked in his own premises or someone else's, not being a master didn't mean he was 'employed' in the modern day sense. After all, 'journeyman' meant he was paid by the day! Skilled workers were generally jealous of their independence and would much prefer not to be in permanent employment.

[Victoria]

Hi again,
Just trawled through lists of all known London and Birmingham siversmiths and their marks. Sorry to say, there were no Pettits. I even checked earlier years,
going back about a century, in case he came from a silversmithing family.
You are quite right about Huegenot silversmiths; there were many of them,
particularly in London.
Since your gt.grandfather was listed in a trade directory, it does suggest that he was in business on his own and not employed by someone else. I think Ann's idea that he may have done decorative work for one of the bigger
silversmiths, might be correct. I have never come across any reference to such a practice in the silver trade, but it is not impossible. Of course if that is the case, he would not have put his own mark on things, even if he was a master silversmith and had a registered mark.
I was quite disappointed not to find any Pettits with marks, but the family could have lived in another area, prior to your gt.grandfather's time. I did not search all the lists, as that would take hours. If you want to look, any good library should have Goddard's book on English silver or the one that I have,
The Book of Old Silver by Seymour B. Wyler.

Regards,
Victoria

[Victoria]

Just had another thought. This is only a guess, but I wonder if your gt.grandfather inscribed initials or family crests on silverware. Chasing would certainly be the technique used to do that. With the nouveau riche of the 19th century, no doubt there was a great demand for that sort of thing.
I would think that the manufacturer would have engraved the piece, but perhaps it was sent out as described above. There were also presentation pieces and perhaps old silver that people might have wanted to have inscribed with their initials or newly acquired family crest.

Victoria

[Procat]

Hi again,
Since your gt.grandfather was listed in a trade directory, it does suggest that he was in business on his own and not employed by someone else. I think Ann's idea that he may have done decorative work for one of the bigger
silversmiths, might be correct. I have never come across any reference to such a practice in the silver trade, but it is not impossible. Of course if that is the case, he would not have put his own mark on things, even if he was a master silversmith and had a registered mark

Regards,
Victoria

My great great grandfather establised James Swann & Son - a Birmingham thimble manufacturing firm which had its own mark.

Norma Spicer wrote a booklet on the subject and in it she mentions that JS&S chased silver thimbles for another manufacturer. These thimbles bore the mark of the second manufacturer as Victoria comments.

I don't know if this is indicative of the silver trade as a whole but it certainly did occur.

[Maygladwin]

MANY THANKS for all the responses to my "silver chase ".
It has given me a much better picture of the way craftsmen worked in the late 19c. I appreciate your time and helpful comments. Especially thanks to Victoria for the hunt through silver books.
kind regards
May

[Geoffers]

This is just a passing thought, nothing more than something to bear in mind as you trace your family back. Pettit is not an uncommon name and it is likely that there is no connection at all - however - bearing in mind that families did sometimes follow similar types of work over generations; you should be aware that there was a London Pewterer called John PETTIT who worked from about 1685-1713.

According to 'A Dictionary of Marks' edited by Margaret Macdonald-Taylor (ISBN 0 85223 719 7), "his marks included: 'IOHN' curved above and 'PETTIT' below, in cartouche outline; crown and rose with initials IP in shaped outline small marks: lion passant; B; lion's head crowned; I.P; label, FREE.OF.LONDON."

Geoffers

[Maygladwin]

Now that is also interesting, Charles Pettit (chaser) had a son John from whom I am a direct descendent, John also had a son named John and they were both described as Engraver, Engr or Engineer(must have been a mistake !) on census forms.
Charles was born in Mortlake 1805/6 parents I think were James and Lucy, he began "chasing"in the Clerkenwell area before moving to Birmingham.
Another little problem I have with Charles,he is on the 1861 census in Watery Lane Aston. On the 1871 I am reliably informed that the house was "empty" on the night of the census. His son Arthur appears and daughter Emily at different addresses. However Charles, wife Emma and the rest of the family have completely vanished. By 1881 Emma and a son and daughter re-appear at Eyre Street Birmingham but not Charles who had died pre 1879.
Any ideas where they might have all been(with 5 or 6 children)on the night of 1871 census ?
Thanks for all your help.
May

[Procat]

Hi May,

I have checked Ancestry 1871 using all sorts of combinations for Charles, Emma and Myra with no success.

Perhaps they were on the Grand Tour?

[Maygladwin]

Thanks for looking up Ancestry, that was very kind.. never thought of the grand tour ! I was thinking more of not answering the door incase it was the bailiffs !
May

[shirley haas]

Hi May,
Only a master silversmith who owned his workshop and was a member of the silversmiths'(or goldsmithgs') guild was entitled to his own mark. It was not necessary for the master silversmith to actually work on a piece that bore his mark. As long as it came out of his shop, he was responsible for it and put his mark on it. Master craftsmen usually had apprentices and perhaps journeymen
working for them.
If your gt.grandfather called himself an engraver, rather than a silversmith, I suspect that he was employed by one of the larger companies that had sprung during 19th century, particularly if he lived in one of the industrial cities such as Sheffield.

Cheers,
Victoria
_____________________

Greetings -

My great grandfather's name was Robert Thomas Ashforth - he as a master white metelsmith - or silversmith. Is there a registry somewhere in Birminham (where he lived and worked) that lists the MSS and their marks?

His son, Thomas Williams Ashforth, my grandfather, was born around 1864.

I'd sincerely like to know where to look to obtain this info for my family history. I have one piece - a shoe horn - from his works.

Thanks, shirley haas

[Procat]

Hi Shirley,

There is a book called Birmingham silversmiths and their marks by A.K.Crisp Jones (N.A.G. Press, London, 1981).

The Birmingham Assay Office may also be able to shed some light on this for you as the mark may well have been registered with them.

You might like to take a look at:

http://domain751573.sites.fasthosts.com/assayoffice/index.html

[Geoffers]

My great grandfather's name was Robert Thomas Ashforth - he as a master white metelsmith - or silversmith. I'd sincerely like to know where to look to obtain this info for my family history. I have one piece - a shoe horn - from his works.In addition to Procat's posting, is the shoe horn made of silver/plate - does it have any marks on it and can you see them?

If you have problems finding a copy of the book mentioned, try a good antique shop, dealers often have books to help them identify pieces. They may also be able to suggest a shop which specialises in reference books.

Lastly, there may be no connection to you, but there was a firm of Sheffield Palte makers in the late 18th century, called Ashforth & Co - they worked in Sheffield. Just something to bear in mind in case your chap migrated to Birmingham.

Geoffers

[Victoria]

Hi Shirley,
No sign of an Ashforth mark among the Birmingham marks in any of my reference books. It is possible that there was such a mark and it was somehow left out of the books. If you want to hunt for it yourself,
I suggest that you try a good library as the books are expensive and really not worth buying for one use. As Procat has suggested, the Birmingham Assay Office should have a record of the mark if it was registered there.

Perhaps your Ashforth gt. grandfather was a whitesmith and not a silversmith. Whitesmiths were not required to mark their wares.

Since Geoffers discovered a Sheffield plate maker, named Ashforth,
I had a look for Ashforth among the silversmiths of that city.
Geo. Ashforth & Co. registered a mark there in 1774-5 and again
1800-1. Geo. Ashforth & Co. also registered a mark as goldsmiths in Sheffield in 1843. So it seems that there was an Ashforth family
in the trade for several generations. They may have moved to Sheffield in 1774, following the opening of an assay office there in 1773. Of course these Ashforths may not be related to your family, but I would not be surprised if they turn out to be connected somehow.

If that shoe horn is silver and has marks, post a description and I'll look have a look for them in my books.

Cheers,
Victoria
.

[Maygladwin]

Hi, according to the old occupations index a Whitesmith was a Tin Smith. So probably would not be hallmarking his wares.
May

[shirley haas]

Hi, according to the old occupations index a Whitesmith was a Tin Smith. So probably would not be hallmarking his wares.
May
________________________________________

Hi - Yes, you are correct; however, a whitemetalsmith is another word for silver smith.

I looked this up.

Thanks, sh

[shirley haas]

Hi Shirley,

There is a book called Birmingham silversmiths and their marks by A.K.Crisp Jones (N.A.G. Press, London, 1981).

The Birmingham Assay Office may also be able to shed some light on this for you as the mark may well have been registered with them.

You might like to take a look at:

http://domain751573.sites.fasthosts.com/assayoffice/index.html

__________________________________

Greetings!

I tried the website - it didn't work for me.

Here's the latest on my great grandfather, Robert Thomas Ashforth:

He was a journeyman silversmith; he worked for others; he didn't need a Hallmark. Two of his sons were also silversmiths, but not journeyman - at least that I know of.

Thanks for your reply.

shaas

[shirley haas]

Hi Shirley,
No sign of an Ashforth mark among the Birmingham marks in any of my reference books. It is possible that there was such a mark and it was somehow left out of the books. If you want to hunt for it yourself,
I suggest that you try a good library as the books are expensive and really not worth buying for one use. As Procat has suggested, the Birmingham Assay Office should have a record of the mark if it was registered there.

Perhaps your Ashforth gt. grandfather was a whitesmith and not a silversmith. Whitesmiths were not required to mark their wares.

Since Geoffers discovered a Sheffield plate maker, named Ashforth,
I had a look for Ashforth among the silversmiths of that city.
Geo. Ashforth & Co. registered a mark there in 1774-5 and again
1800-1. Geo. Ashforth & Co. also registered a mark as goldsmiths in Sheffield in 1843. So it seems that there was an Ashforth family
in the trade for several generations. They may have moved to Sheffield in 1774, following the opening of an assay office there in 1773. Of course these Ashforths may not be related to your family, but I would not be surprised if they turn out to be connected somehow.

If that shoe horn is silver and has marks, post a description and I'll look have a look for them in my books.

Cheers,
Victoria
.
_______________________________________
Shrubsole advised the shoehorn was Victorian. That would probably be my great grandfather.

George Ashforth had several companies, therefore he had several Hallmarks. I've gone back to William Ashforth (and Keturah, of Sheffield then of Dudley), father of Charles who was father of Robert Thomas who was father of Thomas Williams, my grandfather - also a silversmith.

I feel that I would have to go back two more generations to link up to George. I'm not sure I can do that because of time limitations.

Thanks, shaas

[shirley haas]

_______________________________________
Shrubsole advised the shoehorn was Victorian. That would probably be my great grandfather.

George Ashforth had several companies, therefore he had several Hallmarks. I've gone back to William Ashforth (and Keturah, of Sheffield then of Dudley), father of Charles who was father of Robert Thomas who was father of Thomas Williams, my grandfather - also a silversmith.

I feel that I would have to go back two more generations to link up to George. I'm not sure I can do that because of time limitations.

Thanks, shaas
___________________________

By the way, the shoehorn has no Hallmark. I'm only assuming that it was done by Robert Thomas since he was born in 1840 - but it could be from one of his relatives.

shaas

[shirley haas]

Mother writes that George Ashforth of Sheffield (Christening: 06 July 1736), son of Samuel, was a blood relative. George had several business as noted in threads within this forum. All that has been written in this forum is, in my estimation, correct.

I'm trying to match up my Ashforths with George Ashforth to certify (at least in my mind and research) that George Ashforth is indeed a blood relative of our Ashforth family. The only way I know to do that is to trace Ashforth fathers.

Again, Charles Ashforth (b. 1821) married Sarah Steedman; they lived in Kins Norton, Dudley. Their son, Robert T. Ashforth was my great grandfather.

continued.

[shirley haas]

Charles was the son of William Ashforth (b. around 1796) and Ketura (don't know her maiden name).

I'd like to know their marriage date;
and, the death date of William Ashforth - if possible.

When I have the pg. and V. of his death record, I can obtain a death certificate and learn of his parent's names.

Can you assist me with this request.

Thanks, shirley haas