The name "Payll"?

[Jonesy]

Merry Christmas everyone!

I am trying to find my paternal great grandfather, Pryce Vaughan, on the 1881/91 censuses.

in 1901 he's with his family in Pontypridd (RG 13/5010 folio 118 page 57, TNA Crown copyright).

I think I've found him in 1891, as a boarder in LLanwonno (4413 folio 95 page 3, TNA Crown copyright). There is another boarder, Herbert Vaughan, who may be a brother?

But what about 1881? I can't find Pryce. I know from his marriage certificate that his father was called George, and there is a George Vaughan on the 1881 census (5490 folio 7 page 8, TNA Crown copyright) and also a Herbert Vaughan, with a similar age to the aforementioned one.

No Pryce, but there is a "Payll" Vaughan of the right age. I've had a look at the original image, and it certainly looks like Payll to my eye.

Could "Payll" be a derivative of "Pryce"?

[Mutley]

Was he a coal miner/hewer born about 1874 in Churchstoke, Montgomeryshire and married to Bessie?

[Mutley]

According to Wikipedia for the surname there are Press, Priess, Priesz, and many others, pronounced "Preese".
But I cannot find another alternative in 1881 for the family that includes Payll seeing as they all say born in Churchstoke..

[Jonesy]

Was he a coal miner/hewer born about 1874 in Churchstoke, Montgomeryshire and married to Bessie?

Yes, as per the 1901 census I quoted in the original post.

Note that Pryce is his first name, not surname.

[Mutley]

Yes, as per the 1901 census I quoted in the original post.

Note that Pryce is his first name, not surname.

I asked for confirmation of the 1901 giving his birth details because several of our members have free access to the 1881 and might be prepared to look for you but not having subscriptions to pay sites they would not be able to check the reference for 1901 to find his birth year and place which you did not give.

Yes I did realise Pryce was his first name but I presumed it would be pronounced the same as a surname.

Sorry.

[Zen Rabbit]

Where and when was he born?
There is a Briycies Vaughan aged 5 at 53 Mill St, Calne a boarder born Middlesex, Westminster
1881 RG11/2035 page 10

[Jonesy]

Sorry for lack of information!

Pryce Vaughan, born 28th Feb 1874, Little Argoed, Church Stoke. Married Bessie Flower in 1895.

[Jonesy]

Here is an image of the name in question, from the census image (click to enlarge):

http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b135/Jonesy127/th_1881Census_detail.jpg (http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b135/Jonesy127/1881Census_detail.jpg)

So, does it say "Payll Vaughan", "Pryce Vaughan", or something else?

[Jonesy]

Bigger version:

http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b135/Jonesy127/th_1881Census_detail.jpg (http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b135/Jonesy127/1881Census_detail.jpg)

[pattenwalsh]

Bigger...http://s981.photobucket.com/albums/ae292/brianpw/

[Mutley]

It certainly does look like Payll but that does not necessarily mean it is his birth name.
It is what the enumerator thought he heard and what he wrote down.

There are other factors to be taken into account. Birth year, birth place, family, occupations and whether you can find any alternative possibilities.

What is his mother's name and his father's occupation on his birth certificate?

[Mutley]

There is a John Powell Vaughan registered in March 1873 at Forden, Montgomeryshire. I wonder if Payll might be Powell. It may be worth tracking John Powell to see if you can eliminate him. I can find him in later census but not for sure in 1881.

Though I am not sure where I am going with this, it seemed like a good idea at the time..... :smile5:

[anamarja]

I just looked at the image - I think it's a BADLY (seriously) scrawled Pryce. Cheers,

Margaret

[Colin Rowledge]

I just looked at the image - I think it's a BADLY (seriously) scrawled Pryce. Cheers,

Margaret

Whether or not we can ever determine what the enumerator wrote, the bottom line is does everything else match what 'jonesy' is looking for?

[JohnN]

Most certainly Pryce - the C and the E are much larger than necessary, making them look like LL (but of course in lower case).

[Ladkyis]

Probably it was what the enumerator thought he read from the household form. Remember that they were human too and could only transcribe what they thought they saw. They would only have written it themselves if the householder could not fill in the form themselves so they might not have "heard" the name only seen what a householder wrote.

If my husband was allowed to fill in forms then we would never be found because his writing is awful, and he had the benefit of education until he was 17!!!

[pippycat]

1881 census p5490 f7 pg8

little argoed, churchstoke, forden, mgy.

George Vaughan b1832 Kerry, Mgy Labourer
Elizabeth b1841
John b1859 Footman
Edwardb1861 Labourer
Richard b1864 Apprentice
Herbert b1869 scholar
Ellen b1871 scholar
Payllb1872 scholar
Lydia b1874 scholar
Rose b1878
Fanny b1879
All born Churchstoke
Margaret Davies, mother b1794 Kerry, Mgy Labourers widow

I didn't look at the image but will if you want me to!

Also have them in 1911 if you want that info?

Rebecca

I know you already have this but I think its yours and others can now see to judge for themselves!

[Jonesy]

Also have them in 1911 if you want that info?


All of them?!

[pippycat]

Sorry No! :sad:

1911 census RG14 p32316 Pontypridd

28 Sheppard St, Pwllgwaun - same street as 1901 census.

Pryce Vaughan b1874, Churchstoke, Mgy. Coal Miner Hewer
Bessie married 14 years b1877 Gilinham, Dorset
Stanley b1897 Pontypridd, Coal Miner Boy
Minnie b1901 Pontypridd
Emlyn b1904 Pontypridd

You say Pryce Vaughan born 28 Feb 1874, Little Argoed, Churchstoke, which would match up with the above.

The Payll/Pryce on 1881 census p5490 f7 pg8 is born 1872:

Found birth on FMP for Pryce Vaughn born June Q 1872 Forden, Mgy 11b p219
(also possible death for Pryce Vaughan b1872 (age 74) in Dec Q 1946 Yeovil, Somerset 7c p346)
- b.1872 would tie in better with the 1881 Pryce.


I assumed the 1881 badly scrawled Pryce (or Pyall) was yours because of father George and brother Herbert (Herbert Vaughn b1868 June Q Montgomery 116 p248 on A*)

So, do we have 2 different men?

Rebecca

[Jonesy]

You say Pryce Vaughan born 28 Feb 1874, Little Argoed, Churchstoke, which would match up with the above.

And of course I should have said 1872. |oopsredfa I am going by a (clearly) handwritten family bible.

What throws me is that Pryce and Bessie's marriage certificate has him as aged 20 when they married 26 Dec 1895. But the 1872 birth would make him 23 when he got married??

Bessie is stated as 18 on the wedding certificate, which correlates with an 1877 birth as suggested by her ages in the censuses. Her date of birth is not written in the bible I have, but a FreeBMD search has a Bessie Flower born June Qtr 1877 in Dorset, and I'm sure that's her.

[Jonesy]

Of course on the 1901 and 1911 censuses he's 27 and 37 respectively, which suggests a 1874 birth. I give up!|banghead|

[pippycat]

You can't give up yet!

Dates never match up exactly so this could easily just be a case of wrong dates being entered along the line.

If you think the family bible would be more correct than census info then thats what we should go by..born 1872.

The marriage in 1895 - Pryce should be 23 so someone has put 20 in error?

Bessie on 1911 census has 'married 14 years' which would make a marriage date of 1987 - another error, should be 12 years?

If we assume 1881 census with father George is correct then "payll" is rightly born 1872 (same as bible) and the June 1872 Forden birth would fit well.
(and possibly the Yeovil 1946 death)...might need to see if there is any connection to Somerset though.

Bessie Flower birth: June Q 1877 Shaftesbury 5a p240
- same district as Gillingham, Dorset her (incorrectly spelt) place of birth on census.

Bessie has correct age on both 1901 + 1911 census but Pryce b1874 has aged by 2 years.

Most of the errors are only 'wrong' by 2ish years which is hardly anything in the scheme of things Mr Jones!

Pryce: was his mother Elizabeth possibly Davies?
and did he have a brother Herbert? do you recognise any of the other siblings from 1881 census?

Depends on your answer really, but might be worth risking the June 1872 Forden birth cert for Pryce (to clarify things :yes: .... or not :frown2:)

Rebecca