Newman - Brickwall

[dozeyden]

Hi
I have hit a brickwall with my great grandfather. My grandfather was Frederick Alfred Newman born 1912-1987. His father was Thomas George Newman and his mother was Phoebe Selina Jellett. Phoebe caused a problem in that she was brought up by her father's sister and her husband under the name of Phoebe Taylor.

I have found Thomas George Newman b 1878 on the 1911 census with Phoebe, their 2 children and living with Emma Daniels, Stanley Booth and Phoebes "adoptive" parents Harriet "Hetty" Taylor and Henry Thomas Taylor.

I have found their marriage certificate from 25 Dec 1902 also. They were living in the Lambeth area at this time. On the marriage certificate Thomas George Newman was a porter and his father was quoted as being Arthur George Newman a deceased constable.

I have Thomas' death certificate which unfortunately does not quote where he was born.

I have found a military record for him which quotes his birthplace as Belvedere, Kent. I have just purchased the Belvedere All Saints parish registers on cd for baptism and marriages and have not found him listed.

I can find no record of Thomas George Newman on any censuses, not even fitting in around Lambeth in 1901 a year before he got married.

I have contacted the GRO for a Thomas George Newman around 1878 with a father Arthur George Newman and they couldnt find anything.

I dont know what I can do next or where I am going wrong? Any help would be appreciated please.

[Raffaele]

There are 2 Thomas George Newman's born 1878

One in West Bromwich and the other in Dover.

His birth record may not include the George - some did record middle names, some did not.
Many people reversed them.

Census ages were not always correct so 1878 might not be his real birth year.

May have been born Belvedere

Thomas Newmans born 1876-1880 in Kent reveals these

Births Sep 1877
NEWMAN Thomas Gravesend 2a 437
Births Dec 1877
Newman Thomas William Malling 2a 549
Births Dec 1878
NEWMAN Thomas George Dover 2a 935
Births Sep 1879
Newman Thomas Herbert Greenwich 1d 916

I would say the Gravesend one is your man.

[Mutley]

Going on the registration districts, I think Greenwich is the nearest. Belvedere (I believe) would have come under Erith or Dartford but if you move East you could be looking at the Woolwich, Plumstead, Deptford areas which would be Greenwich.

Don't know where the Herbert comes into it though. :smile5:

P.S. There were lots of Taylors around that area, many were watermen.

[Mutley]

There are 2 Thomas George Newman's born 1878

One in West Bromwich and the other in Dover.

His birth record may not include the George - some did record middle names, some did not.
Many people reversed them.

Census ages were not always correct so 1878 might not be his real birth year.

May have been born Belvedere

Thomas Newmans born 1876-1880 in Kent reveals these

Births Sep 1877
NEWMAN Thomas Gravesend 2a 437
Births Dec 1877
Newman Thomas William Malling 2a 549
Births Dec 1878
NEWMAN Thomas George Dover 2a 935
Births Sep 1879
Newman Thomas Herbert Greenwich 1d 916

I would say the Gravesend one is your man.

The Dover born Thomas seems to be in the census with parents George and Rachael.
There is a Gravesend born Thomas with parents Thomas and Ann.

Maybe that eliminates two of them.

[Mutley]

When Thomas and Phoebe Jellett married at Lambeth St. Phillip in 1902, they were living at 32 Chester Street.
Witnesses were H Taylor (I presume Hetty or Henry) and ? Kirkland.

(The family living at 32 Chester Street in 1901 had the surname Ford, none were Thomas or Arthur.)

I know dozeyden probably has this information but it may help those willing to search for him in 1901 and before.

In 1917 Thomas was living at 5 China Sq, Kennington with Phoebe and had 6 children, the first being Reginald George born in Lambeth in 1904. Thomas joined the 4th Royal Sussex.

But where was he before this? I can't find him, sorry!

[Mutley]

The nearest family that I can find are these in 1881 living in Murray Buildings in Lambeth.
Alfred, a Police Constable born 1836 and Eliza, his wife born 1845
Children are Alfred born 1867, William 1869, George 1874, Mariah 1876, Mary Ann 1879.
All born London (the transcription says Middlesex but the original does not, just says London)
RG11/Piece 599, Folio 55, Page 61
(Copyright TNA)

Not quite right are they?
so need to find them before or after 1881 to eliminate them.

[valg]

Hi
I have hit a brickwall with my great grandfather. My grandfather was Frederick Alfred Newman born 1912-1987. His father was Thomas George Newman and his mother was Phoebe Selina Jellett. Phoebe caused a problem in that she was bought up by her father's sister and her husband under the name of Phoebe Taylor.

I have found Thomas George Newman b 1878 on the 1911 census with Phoebe, their 2 children and living with Emma Daniels, Stanley Booth and Phoebes "adoptive" parents Harriet "Hetty" Taylor and Henry Thomas Taylor.

I have found their marriage certificate from 25 Dec 1902 also. They were living in the Lambeth area at this time. On the marriage certificate Thomas George Newman was a porter and his father was quoted as being Arthur George Newman a deceased constable.

I have Thomas' death certificate which unfortunately does not quote where he was born.

I have found a military record for him which quotes his birthplace as Belvedere, Kent. I have just purchased the Belvedere All Saints parish registers on cd for baptism and marriages and have not found him listed.

I can find no record of Thomas George Newman on any censuses, not even fitting in around Lambeth in 1901 a year before he got married.

I have contacted the GRO for a Thomas George Newman around 1878 with a father Arthur George Newman and they couldnt find anything.

I dont know what I can do next or where I am going wrong? Any help would be appreciated please.

Had a look for a marriage for a Arthur George Newman..searched 1855-1880- couldnt find any marriage for a Arthur George

[valg]

Hi
I have hit a brickwall with my great grandfather. My grandfather was Frederick Alfred Newman born 1912-1987. His father was Thomas George Newman and his mother was Phoebe Selina Jellett. Phoebe caused a problem in that she was bought up by her father's sister and her husband under the name of Phoebe Taylor.

I have found Thomas George Newman b 1878 on the 1911 census with Phoebe, their 2 children and living with Emma Daniels, Stanley Booth and Phoebes "adoptive" parents Harriet "Hetty" Taylor and Henry Thomas Taylor.

I have found their marriage certificate from 25 Dec 1902 also. They were living in the Lambeth area at this time. On the marriage certificate Thomas George Newman was a porter and his father was quoted as being Arthur George Newman a deceased constable.

I have Thomas' death certificate which unfortunately does not quote where he was born.

I have found a military record for him which quotes his birthplace as Belvedere, Kent. I have just purchased the Belvedere All Saints parish registers on cd for baptism and marriages and have not found him listed.

I can find no record of Thomas George Newman on any censuses, not even fitting in around Lambeth in 1901 a year before he got married.

I have contacted the GRO for a Thomas George Newman around 1878 with a father Arthur George Newman and they couldnt find anything.

I dont know what I can do next or where I am going wrong? Any help would be appreciated please.

Had a general look at Thomas George Newmans-freebmd-1877-1879 not to many, while trying to track them thru census came acoss this one
Thomas Newman-Drapers Porter-brn 1879 Cambridgeshire.
RG13-269-52-35-Shoreditch.

[Raffaele]

I have just been checking. Everything looks fine back to Thomas George.
Notably, he has father deceased on his wedding certificate. A favourite trick of someone with a past to lose.

Who were the witnesses ? Perhaps thay can give a lead on him.

[Richard1955]

This is a possibility:
Thomas Newman. b1879 Holland. Hotel servant in St Luke. London.
1901 census crown copyright TNA RG13 260/6/4

Perhaps the witnesses are also working in the same hotel.

[Mutley]

When Hilda Lillian, one of the children of Thomas and Phoebe was born on 19 Mar 1905 they were living in the workhouse at Lambeth. I do not know if those records are available or would shed any light on the background of Thomas.

[Kerrywood]

When Hilda Lillian, one of the children of Thomas and Phoebe was born on 19 Mar 1905 they were living in the workhouse at Lambeth. I do not know if those records are available or would shed any light on the background of Thomas.

Well spotted, Mutley!

Lambeth workhouse records are available at London Metropolitan Archives. If Phoebe was admitted just to give birth, the records may be sparse or non-existent, but it would be worth a look.

Some Lambeth workhouse records are available online in Ancestry's London poor law records database. These are browsable but not searchable.

A handful of pages of the register of births for the Renfrew Road workhouse in Lambeth are included in Ancestry's London Births/Baptisms database. They are misfiled, misindexed, and tacked onto some baptism records in 1859 at the church of St Dunstan in the East in the City of London. :biggrin:.

Accordingly, the date of birth for Hilda Lilian NEWMAN is misindexed there as 19 Mar 1859, though the image shows the entry under 1905. Though incomplete, it also shows the father as George Thomas NEWMAN, which may provide another search option.

[Kerrywood]

If Phoebe was admitted just to give birth, the records may be sparse or non-existent, but it would be worth a look.
According to the creed register for the Renfrew Road workhouse in Lambeth, Phoebe was admitted on 19 March 1905 from Richmond Cottage, Richmond Street. She gave birth to Hilda the same day. Both were discharged at own request on 3 April 1905, to Richmond Cottage, Richmond Street.
Source: London, England, Poor Law Records, 1834-1940
Lambeth > Lambeth > Religious Creed > Renfrew Road Workhouse: Creed Register,1900-1908 > images 1611 & 1612

Richmond Cottage, Richmond Street, can be found ...
1901 - RG13/407 folio 31 page 54 - surnames CHAPMAN, GREEN, GIBBS, BIRMINGHAM
1911 - RG14/1963 SN 214
(records held by TNA, Crown copyright)

As two of the surnames found there in 1901 also appear there in 1911, these may be worth further investigation.

I'm off out now and will leave others to run with this, if there's any mileage in it. :smile5:

[Coromandel]

A handful of pages of the register of births for the Renfrew Road workhouse in Lambeth are included in Ancestry's London Births/Baptisms database. They are misfiled, misindexed, and tacked onto some baptism records in 1859 at the church of St Dunstan in the East in the City of London. :biggrin:.

Accordingly, the date of birth for Hilda Lilian NEWMAN is misindexed there as 19 Mar 1859, though the image shows the entry under 1905. Though incomplete, it also shows the father as George Thomas NEWMAN, which may provide another search option.

Now why didn't I think of looking in 1859 St Dunstan in the East records for a 1905 Lambeth baptism? Silly me |doh|

Well done Kerrywood for knowing where to look. |bowdown|

[Kerrywood]

Coromandel, I wish I did know where to look for these sorts of things -- it would save a heck of a lot of time!

I found it by chance, searching for baptisms of any children surnamed Ne*m* to parents Tho* and Ph*b*, or Geo* and Ph*b*. :smile5:

[dozeyden]

There are 2 Thomas George Newman's born 1878

One in West Bromwich and the other in Dover.

His birth record may not include the George - some did record middle names, some did not.
Many people reversed them.

Census ages were not always correct so 1878 might not be his real birth year.

May have been born Belvedere

Thomas Newmans born 1876-1880 in Kent reveals these

Births Sep 1877
NEWMAN Thomas Gravesend 2a 437
Births Dec 1877
Newman Thomas William Malling 2a 549
Births Dec 1878
NEWMAN Thomas George Dover 2a 935
Births Sep 1879
Newman Thomas Herbert Greenwich 1d 916

I would say the Gravesend one is your man.

Don't know if I have put this in the right place as new to it all.

Would like to say thank you for everyone for all your information, it has been great. Yes, I was aware of Phoebe having a child in the Lambeth workhouse, did wonder whether Thomas may have been a porter working there at the time perhaps. Wasnt sure where to go from that information.
I have unfortunately just finished a subscription to ancestry and thinking perhaps of going to Findmypast for a short while hoping to find perhaps more records there. Anyone know if this would be a good move or should I stick to ancestry?
Need to digest some of the information everyone has given me, interested in the record of the birth of Hilda Lilian in the workhouse and the parent being George Thomas instead of Thomas George.
Have followed the Dover link and it didnt tie in with the information on his father. Followed one of the censuses which has him with a brother and sister only in London also a mother of Rhoda and a mother of Margaret. Didnt seem to get anywhere with those.
Mystery where Thomas was on the censuses before his marriage, beginning to wonder if Arthur George was his dad and if he had been a deceased constable. As mentioned sometimes people put things down to hide facts eg illegitimacy.
Thanking you all once again for helping, it has given me a bit more to think about.

[dozeyden]

Well spotted, Mutley!

Lambeth workhouse records are available at London Metropolitan Archives. If Phoebe was admitted just to give birth, the records may be sparse or non-existent, but it would be worth a look.

Some Lambeth workhouse records are available online in Ancestry's London poor law records database. These are browsable but not searchable.

A handful of pages of the register of births for the Renfrew Road workhouse in Lambeth are included in Ancestry's London Births/Baptisms database. They are misfiled, misindexed, and tacked onto some baptism records in 1859 at the church of St Dunstan in the East in the City of London. :biggrin:.

Accordingly, the date of birth for Hilda Lilian NEWMAN is misindexed there as 19 Mar 1859, though the image shows the entry under 1905. Though incomplete, it also shows the father as George Thomas NEWMAN, which may provide another search option.

Hilda Lilian Newman is a guess as one of the deceased children on the 1911 census. I know they lost Phoebe Gladys Newman as her death record was on Thomas' military records. I shall have to try to find the record you have mentioned under 1859. Thank you

[dozeyden]

This is a possibility:
Thomas Newman. b1879 Holland. Hotel servant in St Luke. London.
1901 census crown copyright TNA RG13 260/6/4

Perhaps the witnesses are also working in the same hotel.

The witnesses to their marriage were H Taylor whom I presume was either Harriet (Hetty) or Henry Taylor whom Phoebe was bought up with but not sure about the A Kirkland. Did try following that route but didnt get anything.

[Mutley]

You mentioned finding a Thomas as the son of a Margaret.
I looked long and hard and this family and I am still wondering but was not convinced enough to post it.

Going from memory....
Margaret Newman was born in 1841 in Cork, Ireland. She was a widow for several census but appeared later with children though still a widow.
Children were Thomas, Mary Ann and (I think) William. I could not make out who would have been the father to these children. Where were they in the census prior to the one she was in with them. Sorry, I did not keep notes but I still wonder if they might be worth further research. Your Thomas George named a child Mary Ann, though that means nothing, or does it?

I am sure Thomas/George was not telling the truth on his marriage certificate to Phoebe.

[Mutley]

Don't know if I have put this in the right place as new to it all.


I have unfortunately just finished a subscription to ancestry and thinking perhaps of going to Findmypast for a short while hoping to find perhaps more records there. Anyone know if this would be a good move or should I stick to ancestry?


Tis as good a place as any, don't worry, you are doing fine. :smile5:


Each of the sites has information that could be useful to you. Ancestry has the London baptisms and other London info, FMP has the 1911, it is a difficult choice to make these days.

[Kerrywood]

I am sure Thomas/George was not telling the truth on his marriage certificate to Phoebe.

:iagree:

[valg]

According to the creed register for the Renfrew Road workhouse in Lambeth, Phoebe was admitted on 19 March 1905 from Richmond Cottage, Richmond Street. She gave birth to Hilda the same day. Both were discharged at own request on 3 April 1905, to Richmond Cottage, Richmond Street.
Source: London, England, Poor Law Records, 1834-1940
Lambeth > Lambeth > Religious Creed > Renfrew Road Workhouse: Creed Register,1900-1908 > images 1611 & 1612

Richmond Cottage, Richmond Street, can be found ...
1901 - RG13/407 folio 31 page 54 - surnames CHAPMAN, GREEN, GIBBS, BIRMINGHAM
1911 - RG14/1963 SN 214
(records held by TNA, Crown copyright)

As two of the surnames found there in 1901 also appear there in 1911, these may be worth further investigation.

I'm off out now and will leave others to run with this, if there's any mileage in it. :smile5:

Followed back the Ann Green living in the house on the above2 census, no obvious connection....was Ann Palmer married George Green Boston Lincs 1841, so that leaves the Birminghams...

[Richard1955]

Just a few things I have found to add to the fire:
Thomas George Newman birth Mar qtr 1878 W. Bromwich 6b 861 and can't find in the area on the 1891 census.
There is one in an orphanage in Hampshire.
1901 census Albert Newman b 1882 place unknown. Residing in Lambeth. Occupation: hotel porter and is a boarder.
RG13 408/67/15
1901 census Arthur Kirkland b 1879 Nottingham Occupation: Chemist is residing in Lambeth.
RG13 434.42/17. I assume the witness was A. Kirkland and not a Kirkland.

(records held by TNA, Crown copyright)

[dozeyden]

Thank you Mutley,
I did follow the Margaret thread with the 3 children but I think from memory that I found her with a husband at some point whose name didnt tie in with the Arthur George it was something totally different if I remember rightly.

Kerrywood and Valg you have given me some other options to use when looking up records thank you

Richar1955 - the witness was A. Kirkland. I did look around for clues from this, dont remember an Arthur Kirkland which is very interesting being that he was an Arthur - could my greatgrandad have used that and his own to make up a father's name perhaps.

An orphanage in Hampshire could be interesting - how do you find those out?

Thank you to everyone you are certainly helping me - giving me tips on other ways of researching even if the answer hasnt been solved yet. I do appreciate everyones help.

[Kerrywood]

Richmond Cottage, Richmond Street
I've since noticed that Phoebe's family were anyway living in Richmond Street, so this is probably a red herring.

[Richard1955]

Hi Dozey
I did wonder if the Thomas born in W. Bromwich was the one in the orphanage in Hampshire.
Perhaps he died in W. Bromwich before the census. I haven't checked and it needs more time to eliminate this one.
Just seems a bit strange that we have so many census entries with 'birthplace unknown' that I wonder
if they might be the same person.
And one entry that gives the birthplace as Holland. Thomas Newman doesn't sound very Dutch to me.

The orphanage is from 1891 census:
RG12 879/37/1 Crown copyright TNA and I'm really sorry Kerrywood. I've been good all week !
I'll remove all the post it notes from my computer screen and just have one saying Crown Copyright TNA.
or get it tattooed somewhere.

[dozeyden]

thank you, I will look into the Holland one too. Did see that one but assumed wrong - as you say not very Dutch sounding.

[dozeyden]

I have signed up to findmypast in the hope I may find something there having been on ancestry for 6 months. There are some good points and bad points - I think I prefer ancestry still. Have followed some of the ideas and tried others which do not seem to have lead anywhere.

I did follow the A Kirkland and found an Arthur Kirkland who was a police constable from Leicester living in Fulham, London but havent got any connection with that one.

[dozeyden]

On Thomas' military records he has a tattoo of ***forth highlands LFA (poss. seaforth, terforth of tesforth). I have looked this morning and found a seaforth highlanders from scotland. I am wondering if his father perhaps served in this regiment. Would they have had constables? Perhaps his parents married in Scotland which is why I cant find marriages for an Arthur George Newman.

Still wouldnt explain why I cant find Thomas on any censuses prior to 2011 though and his birth supposedly in Belvedere Kent.

Any thoughts?

[Mutley]

Still wouldnt explain why I cant find Thomas on any censuses prior to 2011 though and his birth supposedly in Belvedere Kent.

Any thoughts?

I've really searched and I cannot find him.
I did a search for 'Newman' born Belvedere within the time frame, without using a first name and it did come up with one, a female so I ignored it but it maybe worth finding her again. She could be connected somewhere.

[Kerrywood]

No answers here, but taking another tack ...

From his WW1 service record, Thomas G. NEWMAN was stated to be born Belvedere Kent and was aged 39 years and 150 days on 28 Dec 1917. This is very specific. If true, I think it generates a birthdate in mid July 1878, likely to have been registered in Sep Qtr 1878. (Perhaps someone could check my maths?)

Belvedere is probably covered by Dartford RD, and there is no birth registration for Thomas G NEWMAN in the 'right' registration district. So perhaps Thomas was registered under another surname?

Here's a possible candidate ...

Births
Sep Qtr 1878
MARTIN Thomas George
Dartford vol 2a page 443

There's a potential MARTIN family in Dartford itself in 1881.

1881 census
RG11/866 folio 40 page 30 (record held by TNA, Crown copyright)
6 Gass Lane, Dartford
Thomas Martin Head Mar 41 Labourer at Tan Works born Surrey Redhill
Jane Martin Wife Mar 39 born Kent Farnborough
Charles Martin Son 10 Scholar born Kent Farnborough
Robert Martin Son 7 Scholar born Kent Farnborough
Thomas Martin Son 2 born Kent Dartford
Edward Martin Son 3 months born Kent Dartford

I can't find a likely marriage for this MARTIN couple.

Can anyone help find any members of this family in any other census?

Or tie anyone in this MARTIN family to anyone with the surname NEWMAN?

I daresay I'm barking up the wrong tree here, but it's hard enough to find any trees to bark up! :wink5:

[Kerrywood]

1881 census
RG11/866 folio 40 page 30 (record held by TNA, Crown copyright)
6 Gass Lane, Dartford
Thomas Martin Head Mar 41 Labourer at Tan Works born Surrey Redhill
Jane Martin Wife Mar 39 born Kent Farnborough
Charles Martin Son 10 Scholar born Kent Farnborough
Robert Martin Son 7 Scholar born Kent Farnborough
Thomas Martin Son 2 born Kent Dartford
Edward Martin Son 3 months born Kent Dartford
FamilySearch has a possible baptism for the son Charles MARTIN at Farnborough Kent in 1871, to parents Aaron and Jane ...

Charles MARTIN
Baptism: 31 Aug 1871
Place: Farnborough, Kent
Father: Aaron Martin
Mother: Jane
Indexing Project (Batch) Number: C13131-2
Source Film Number: 992462

Charles' mother Jane may originally have been Jane WESTBROOK. There is a possible marriage index for Dec Qtr 1863 with Aaron MARTIN on the same page, in Bromley RD (which would cover Farnborough).

Perhaps Jane's 'husband' Thomas MARTIN showing in 1881 in Dartford is not a MARTIN at all, but a NEWMAN? More speculation!

[Mutley]

Well I've searched for these Martins without any luck.

I did pass a family of Martins with a Robert and Thomas as children but different parents.
They lived in Albert Road, Belvedere a few doors away from a Taylor family and I do know that there were Taylors in Albert Road for years but I cannot connect any of them in any way. :(

[dozeyden]

I have the Belvedere parish records on cd for All Saints. I have scanned through from 1880 to 1892 and only found 2 Taylors - James and Ada Lizzie Tayor in 1889 from 2 Albert Road and a George and Emma Taylor in 1891
The only Martin I found was a John and Annie Martin from Yellow Villa, Belvedere in 1890.

Thank you for your your help everyone.

[Richard1955]

Something for you to consider.
The birth year for Thomas is either 1878 or 1880 according to census so if you include all births of
Thomas Newman and Thomas George Newman 1876-1882 you have no hope.
We have two or three census entries for Thomas that state 'birthplace unknown' including
the last one where he is living with his outlaws which also states there adopted daughter as 'birthplace unknown'
So it's probable that Thomas was an orphan. Perhaps he met Emma at an orphanage.
You still have two Thomas's to check out from census. The one in the child's orphanage in Hampshire (1881 I think)
and the one that claims to be Dutch. (1891)
I would be interested to know the end result.

[Mutley]

I have the Belvedere parish records on cd for All Saints. I have scanned through from 1880 to 1892 and only found 2 Taylors - James and Ada Lizzie Tayor in 1889 from 2 Albert Road and a George and Emma Taylor in 1891
The only Martin I found was a John and Annie Martin from Yellow Villa, Belvedere in 1890.

Thank you for your your help everyone.

All Saints was not the only church around that area.
Consider, Northumberland Heath, Slade Green and even Barnehurst, Erith and Crayford. Not that far to walk back then. ;)
St Augustines was in Belvedere.

I have a friend born in Albert Road, I will ask her where she was baptised.

Please can you also confirm for Richard 1955 that you have only found Thomas/George, for sure, in the 1911 census,
or have I missed something somewhere? :smile5:

[Mutley]

Something for you to consider.
The birth year for Thomas is either 1878 or 1880 according to census so if you include all births of
Thomas Newman and Thomas George Newman 1876-1882 you have no hope.
We have two or three census entries for Thomas that state 'birthplace unknown' including
the last one where he is living with his outlaws which also states there adopted daughter as 'birthplace unknown'
So it's probable that Thomas was an orphan. Perhaps he met Emma at an orphanage.
You still have two Thomas's to check out from census. The one in the child's orphanage in Hampshire (1881 I think)
and the one that claims to be Dutch. (1891)
I would be interested to know the end result.

Sorry Richard, either you or I have lost the plot.
I cannot see a mention of an adopted daughter in that census (though we know Phoebe was but only because Dozeyden knows all about her and she was with a family not in an orphanage).
The Emma in the household was a 60 year old widow. :confused5:

[Richard1955]

Sorry, 'perhaps he met Emma' should have been Phoebe.
Emma was the parent of the adopted Phoebe according to Dozeyden and probably does have other info.
Assuming Emma, the head of the house on the later census filled in the census form or answered the questions,
she didn't know where her adopted daughter was born nor her son in law. That was the point I was trying to make.
But yes, your right, I have spent so much time on this, I have lost it.

[Mutley]

Sorry Dozeyden, I am probably becoming a pain but I feel like a dog with a bone and if I shake it enough something might fall out. :smile5:

On Thomas's marriage certificate he states his father is a constable and the first reaction to that, is a policeman.
Have you tried the Kent Constabulary or the MET to see if there are any records for him?
Second reaction is that he might have been a constable in the docks, I am not sure if they are recruited from the normal police force so maybe an email to the PLA would be worth a shot, you can easily google them.

If the Taylors worked in the docks and Arthur was a dock constable then you have a connection between the families.

[Mutley]

Sorry, 'perhaps he met Emma' should have been Phoebe.
Emma was the parent of the adopted Phoebe according to Dozeyden and probably does have other info.
Assuming Emma, the head of the house on the later census filled in the census form or answered the questions,
she didn't know where her adopted daughter was born nor her son in law. That was the point I was trying to make.
But yes, your right, I have spent so much time on this, I have lost it.

I think you have definitely lost it Richard, go lie down quietly.
Henry Taylor was the head of the household, Emma was a boarder.

I don't know what sort of impression Dozeyden will have of the forum members,
A right dozey lot he/she will think we are. :lol:

[Richard1955]

Yes Mutley, your absolutely right. I have checked the census again and Henry is head and Hetty is the wife, sorry.
Emma was head of another thread I was working on earlier.
Anyway the adoptive parents of Phoebe did not know where Phoebe or Thomas were born.

Another direction I have tried but not finished with is Thomas's father on the marriage certificate.
There is an Arthur H Newman b1841 Hornchurch Essex - that lived in Lambeth 1891 and died in Lambeth 1901
but haven't managed to link them just yet. Perhaps you can have a look Mutley, while I rest my head !

[dozeyden]

Thomas is correct on 1911 census born nk. Phoebe is kind of corrected in red to Chichester which is where her parents Joseph and Emma jellett her true parents lived. Emma Daniels on the 1911 census was Emma jellett the sister of Harriet (hetty) phoebes fathers sister who married Daniel Daniels

No one has really lost the plot it gets very confusing! I go round in circles. Henry Taylor was at the docks it seems. Thomas was a porter on his marriage something to do with fishmongers on the 1911 census and window cleaner on his death very.

I have tried following middle names of his sons too but nothing. I have spent hours going round in circles. Like you I get a bit between my teeth and want to solve it but beginning to think it is impossible. Perhaps the records with him on have not been released yet!!

I am even using my iPod to search and keep up to date with you nice people helping me. Thank you again

Denise (dozeyden)

[malcolm99]

Henry Taylor was the head of the household, Emma was a boarder.

I

If it helps, Emma Daniels is Hetty Taylor’s sister.

Emma Jellett married Daniel Phillip Daniels in Lambeth Dec 1878 and Harriett Jellatt (sic) married Henry Thomas Taylor in Lambeth Dec 1881.

See 1881 Census RG11 Piece 594 Folio 123 Page 44 and 1861 Census RG9 Piece 617 Folio 72 Page 17

Records in care of TNA Crown Copyright

[malcolm99]

Ah I see Denise has already just posted this!

[Richard1955]

Me too DD
I checked the Fishmonger ? on the original and there is another word that looks like Porter but it's written over
and difficult to read. Perhaps Ancestry has a better image.
Don't ask me what a fishmongers porter does though.

Sorry, Ancestry won't have that image.

[Kerrywood]

I think it says (Fishmonger's Kitchen Porter).

[Mutley]

I am glad you have a sense of humour Denise, you need it for family history and also if you are asking the more divi members of the forum for help. :wink:

Do check out the Police and PLA sites, an email to them may get a surprise result.

Nothing to do with Thomas but I did see a mention in the Probate Calendar for Phoebe Helen Jellett of the 'Brewers Arms', Bannister Street, Southampton. Wife of Sidney Jellett died 13 May 1904. Probate Winchester 9 July to Elizabeth Gale. Spinster. Effects £439. 4s.
Is she one of yours?

[Richard1955]

I had a feeling that Kerrywood was watching me. Thanks for checking that.
Can I put a big red sentence under your message?

[malcolm99]

There is a police officer, (George Haines), living at Rosary Lodge, Belvedere Park in 1881. [RG11 Piece 863 Folio 136 Page 49]. Is it possible that he is a connection or that Arthur George Newman may have been his predecessor?

BTW it struck me that NEWMAN (‘new man’) would be a good choice of name for someone trying to hide his identity.

(Record in care of TNA: Crown Copyright)

[Kerrywood]

Can I put a big red sentence under your message?
No, because I am merely attempting to clarify hard-to-read data on a census record which has already been accessed by the enquirer.

[Mutley]

BTW it struck me that NEWMAN ('new man') would be a good choice of name for someone trying to hide his identity.


Oooo Aah! That is a very good observation!
If it is true then it is possible he has been far cleverer than we are. :wink:

[dozeyden]

Hi sorry what does PLA stand for please? I did enquire about the police at the docks can't remember outcome was some time ago.

Thanks

[malcolm99]

That's the Port of London Authority: see pla.co.uk/ (www in front). I'm sure someone else will give you more contemporary details

[dozeyden]

I am glad you have a sense of humour Denise, you need it for family history and also if you are asking the more divi members of the forum for help. :wink:

Do check out the Police and PLA sites, an email to them may get a surprise result.

Nothing to do with Thomas but I did see a mention in the Probate Calendar for Phoebe Helen Jellett of the 'Brewers Arms', Bannister Street, Southampton. Wife of Sidney Jellett died 13 May 1904. Probate Winchester 9 July to Elizabeth Gale. Spinster. Effects £439. 4s.
Is she one of yours?

Don't think any connection to these Jellets not on my tree. Most of them in the Chichester area.
Thanks

[dozeyden]

That's the Port of London Authority: see pla.co.uk/ (www in front). I'm sure someone else will give you more contemporary details

Gosh that was quick! Ok thank you

[malcolm99]

Service records for Police officers who served the Port of London Police prior to 1960 are apparently available from the Museum of London. See this: http://www.
museumoflondon.org.uk/Collections-Research/Access-enquiries/Port-River.htm

[dozeyden]

Thank you

I have sent an email to them to enquire.

[Mutley]

All Saints was not the only church around that area.
Consider, Northumberland Heath, Slade Green and even Barnehurst, Erith and Crayford. Not that far to walk back then. ;)
St Augustines was in Belvedere.

I have a friend born in Albert Road, I will ask her where she was baptised.



My friend said she remembers births from Albert Road, The Nursery and Northend Road that were baptised at St. Augustines.
She said, if you are having problems with Belvedere look at Slade Green.

I think you may have to take a look at google maps. :smile5:

[dozeyden]

ok thanks another option to look at, I know I could get the parish records on cd from several parishes. I thought the All Saints may have been a good choice but it wasnt.

Please thank your friend for that information.

[Kerrywood]

Given the difficulty of finding this man in any records at all before his marriage, I feel it is unlikely you will find his baptism under the name Thomas George NEWMAN.

He may originally have had a different surname. If you are searching parish registers, it might be wise to extract records for all children named Thomas George/George Thomas born in the right time-frame. Then go back to the census and other records, and see which ones can be eliminated.

If you haven't already done so, you could first try that exercise with All Saints Belvedere.

[dozeyden]

Thank you. I have already tried the Newman and Thomas George/George Thomas with the Belvedere disc I have. Not a single Newman and none of the other combination did I come across. However, I think I only went as far as 1893 so could still look further for a later baptism.

I do appreciate everyones help.

Denise

[dozeyden]

Hi

Heard from PLA. Unfortunately no records were found. They had very kindly looked for me from my email.