marriage Conolly 1866

[cearnegiant]

My Brick wall. Tracing back Conolly. Marrage certificate dated October 1st 1866, Henry Conolly aged 26, Batchelor, his occupation Tube Maker, Fathers name James Conolly, occupation Plane Maker, Spouse Mary Ann Humphries aged 23 no occupation fathers name Charles Humphries Blacksmith. Residance time marrage both living Vale Street Birmingham. Marrage at St PHILIPS Church Birmingham. I have census birth records for Mary Ann Humphries, Living with parents in 1861. I also have birth of two children to Mary Ann Humphrie between years 1861 and her marrage. Charlotte Humphries 1864, Henry Humphries 1865. The family appear from 1871 census under name Connely and have traced them nicely from there foreward. The Brick wall is Henry Conolly pre 1866 marrage no census or birth found. On there 1881 census listing puts birth of Henry Ireland. Of course could have arrived from Ireland after 1861 census. Shame if unable to go any further back for Henry, I have his death certificate and he lived to 82 years of age death in Birmingham under name Henry Conley. All his childrens births reg under name Conley after marrage. There thats my Brick wall Barry Conley

[Richard1955]

So after putting the full stops and spaces in the right places I guess what your trying to say to Barry Conley is:
I'm struggling to find anything on Henry Conolly before his marriage in 1866.
If you want any help from anyone other than Barry Conley then can we have the census ref for 1881 please
although that may not help unless the census states the county in Ireland that Henry was born.

[josie7644]

So after putting the full stops and spaces in the right places I guess what your trying to say to Barry Conley is:
I'm struggling to find anything on Henry Conolly before his marriage in 1866.
If you want any help from anyone other than Barry Conley then can we have the census ref for 1881 please
although that may not help unless the census states the county in Ireland that Henry was born.

Hello Richard,

I think "cearnegiant" is a pseudonym for Barry Conley.

The census reference for 1881 is RG11/2982/100/33. Sadly no more info on the "Ireland" birth is given!

:) Josie

[Richard1955]

Thanks for explaining that for me Josie.
I didn't put the full stop between 'There that's my brick wall' and 'Barry Conley'

[cearnegiant]

Sorry if i confused situation, But thanks for help

[josie7644]

Hello Barry,

A search of the 1861 census revealed no Henry Conleys of the right age! I think you are right in saying that he came to England after 1861! Had a look on Family Search and found several HCs born in Ireland around 1840, who all seemed to emigrate to America!

Sorry not much help! Maybe somebody else, with access to Irish records could find something positive for you!

The only thing I can suggest is that you purchase his marriage certificate, which would give you the name of his father.

Good luck!

:) Josie

[Richard1955]

No problems Barry. I just wanted to help but had some trouble understanding.
All is clean now.
The marriage certificate is your starting point. It may even contain more clues. ie witnesses, fathers names and occupations.
Do you have anything that can reduce the search area. Northern Ireland ? Southern Ireland ? County, anything?

[cearnegiant]

Hi. Thankyou for your help. I have the marriage certificate. One of the witness names is hard to work out looks like James Manwaring, The other witness Walter Brookes. I think I am not going to get much further with this. Again sorry for confusion. I am not good using keyboard.

[josie7644]

Hi Barry,

I've just had a look at this site, but couldn't find your Henry!

http://

churchrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/search.jsp?name=james+connolly&location=&dd=&mm=&yy=1840&submit=Search

However, it might be an idea to add this site to your favourites, because it is in the process of being updated! Who knows - maybe in a little while from now, your Henry will appear.

(If it's any consolation, I haven't found a single one of my six Irish great grandparents!) :mad2:

All the best,

Josie :)

[Richard1955]

We don't ever give up Barry.
I'll have a look tomorrow.

[cearnegiant]

Thanks for that I just hoping for the lucky break.

[valgeo]

Hi Barry - if your man was born c.1840 and died c.1922 then they may have given more information about the place of birth in the 1911 census - which I'm afraid I don't have access too - but someone else may.

I found the place of birth in Ireland given for my ancestor after buying credits to look at that particular entry - so it was well worth the money.

[olliecat]

It would indeed be useful to find Henry in the 1911 as well as the 1901 census. Reading post #1 of a previous thread (http://www.british-genealogy.com/forums/showthread.php/68479-surname-problem?highlight=) relating to the family it seems that Henry has not been found on either.

[Richard1955]

I have access to 1911 census and can not find Henry and his family on either 1901 or 1911.
Barry, Can I have the census references.

[cearnegiant]

I cannot find Henry on 1911 census, But seems he appears on 1901 census living under wifes maiden name Humphries, Just learning how use census and have following ref for 1901 census Schedule 253 piece 2834 folio 174 page 38 St Martins Birmingham. I then know his wife died in 1905 [ Mary ann Conley] On Henrys death certificate 1920, Shows living in Lodging house time of death.Lodging house address Model Lodging House Rea street Birmingham. Think family had problems 1900s. I have the Birmingham Pub Blacklisting for one of his daughter and her prison records,

[Richard1955]

Lots of variants on the given census of the spelling of the surname, the place of birth and occupation that makes
me feel that either something is wrong or Henry didn't know where he came from which makes this a possibility.
1851 census. HO107 2222/0/0
Can not find a definite match in 1911.
The most frequently used birth place on census is Birmingham 1840 and I feel that this is right.

Not beaten yet but please join in anyone. (if you fancy doing a jigsaw puzzle without a lid).

[olliecat]

I cannot find Henry on 1911 census, But seems he appears on 1901 census living under wifes maiden name Humphries

cearnegiant, have you found his children on the 1911 census?

[cearnegiant]

Before Henry's marrage in 1866,he had child registered under his wifes maiden name, The childs name was Charlotte Humphries.I have Charlottes Birmingham pub Blacklist record and prison records. Charlotte Humphries nickname listed on her records was Lottie Connolly.

[cearnegiant]

Found number of his children 1911. Including the one who registered Henry's death in 1920. Also if you look at my post 18. Really think there were problems going on for the family around 1900s. Henry finally died in a lodging house in 1920.

[olliecat]

I have Charlottes Birmingham pub Blacklist record and prison records. Charlotte Humphries nickname listed on her records was Lottie Connolly.

I see Charlotte is in H M Prison, Birmingham in 1901. Poor Lottie.
1901: RG13 Piece: 2853 Folio: 160 Page: 17 (crown copyright, care of the TNA)


Found number of his children 1911. Including the one who registered Henry's death in 1920.

The reason for asking about which of his children you have found in the 1911 census was to try and find the ones you haven't found, in the hope that Henry was staying with one of them (perhaps under a different or misspelt surname).
If you tell us which of his children you have found then we could search for the children you haven't found - that's if you want us to. :smile5:

[josie7644]

Lots of variants on the given census of the spelling of the surname, the place of birth and occupation that makes
me feel that either something is wrong or Henry didn't know where he came from which makes this a possibility.
1851 census. HO107 2222/0/0
Can not find a definite match in 1911.
The most frequently used birth place on census is Birmingham 1840 and I feel that this is right.

Not beaten yet but please join in anyone. (if you fancy doing a jigsaw puzzle without a lid).

Great work Richard finding this! I've been looking for it myself, but I've been told by FMP that "A folio number must be greater than zero. A page number must be greater than zero." Could you please have another look and let me know what it is? Thanks!

This seems to be the only one I can find but John Conley is a tailor.

HO107; Piece: 2052; Folio: 329; Page: 32 (Copyright TNA)


:) Josie

[Richard1955]

Sorry Josie. Messages coming in from all directions at the moment.
I found the 1951 census entry on FMP and triple checked the ref. number.
Perhaps it comes from another database.
Anyway, it's a workhouse in Liverpool or Manchester. The list was too long to copy and paste.
There were no other Connelly's shown.
Conley is my favourite at the moment as I still search.

[cearnegiant]

Yes please any research welcome.I have found on 1911 census Sarah Conley living under name of Wicketts with her partner and children. I have found Charles Conley with his wife and children. I cannot find Charlotte Humphries on 1911 census. Thats all really found on 1911 census. So there is Henry Humphries birth abt 1871,William Conley birth abt 1874 and Joseph Conley born abt 1881.Joseph appears on 1901 census RG13 2835 153 53. I have not listed the other daughters could be married by 1911. All children listed born in aston birmingham. Thankyou

[olliecat]

Yes please any research welcome.I have found on 1911 census Sarah Conley living under name of Wicketts with her partner and children.

Is she living with Henry WICKETTS in Birmingham? If so, this is census reference...

1911: RG14 / PN18130 SN189

NOTE: since you mentioned you are learning about the census, for the 1911 census it is normally enough to provide the piece number PN and the SN number rather than the full reference.


I have found Charles Conley with his wife and children.

Do you have a census reference number for Charles?

[olliecat]

Thought I'd look for the daughters, starting with Caroline Conley born abt 1883, Birmingham.

A possible marriage for her...

Marriages Sep 1906 Birmingham 6d 40
Conley Caroline
Lowrie William Alfred
Pooler Samuel Leion A
READ Emma

Possibly in the 1911 census in Adams St, Birmingham with husband William A Lowrie...

RG14/18265 SN190

Caroline's father Henry is not present.

[olliecat]

Next daughter Fanny Conley, born abt 1877 in Brimingham

A possible marriage for her...

Marriages Jun 1897 Birmingham 6d 120
Avrill William Henry
Conley Fanny
Gray William
Hughes Mary Ann

Possibly in the 1901 census here...

1901: RG13 Piece: 2855 Folio: 148 Page: 23 (crown copyright, care of the TNA)
26 (back of) Emily Street, Aston, Warwickshire
GRAY, William, head, 26, Bedstead Caster, Birmingham
GRAY, Fanny, wife, 24, Birmingham
GRAY, William, son, 3, Birmingham
GRAY, Jack, son, 2, Birmingham
GRAY, Gertrude, dau, 11 mos, Birmingham
KNIGHT, William, boarder, 20, Carpenter, Saltley Warwickshire

The 1911 census..

1911: RG14/18149 SN50

Again, no sign of father Henry.

[cearnegiant]

Thankyou so much for your work .Charles Conley 1911 Piece no 18160 sn 63. Found under C Conley 87 conybere st Birmingham, yes the Sarah you found is the correct person. Sarah finally married Henry Wicketts in 1919,I know first two children listed on 1911 census born Conley, Polly Wicketts [ Mary ann Conley] Henry wicketts 1895 [Henry conley] Can not yet find birth names of there other children on census.

[olliecat]

I cannot find Charlotte Humphries on 1911 census.

Neither can I. How aggravating. Have you searched for a death record for her?


Charles Conley 1911 Piece no 18160 sn 63. Found under C Conley 87 conybere st Birmingham

That's a good find since they were using initials, well done! :smile5:


Anyway, I've had a look for Henry's daughter Emily Conley born abt 1872 in Birmingham. There is a possible marriage for her...

Marriages Dec 1894 Birmingham 6d 117
Bannister Jemima
Conley Emily
Foster Richard
Mason William

However, I can't find her in the census. I think she may have married Richard Foster, (since there is a Jemima and William Mason in the 1901 census in Warwickshire), however I'm not certain.

I'll have another look for more of your family later on; I'm hungry hungry now and need a nice large cuppa. :smile:

[Jellylegs]

FreeBMD has a death registration of a Mary Ann CONLEY in Dec Q 1905 (age 58), Aston Registration District - Vol. 6d, Page 132. A copy of the death certificate may give an idea as to where you may find Henry in 1901 or 1911 - assuming they were still together.

Just seen that you are aware of the death of Mary Ann - but a copy of the certificate may help in finding Henry.

[Richard1955]

The 1851 census I mentioned earlier with Henry Conolly with correct age as pauper.
The index ref is correct HO107 2222/0/0 possibly as it has several pages with different page numbers.
So you can try HO107 2222/81/80
Union School. Pendleton. Salford. Lanceshire.

[cearnegiant]

Ordered death certificate for Mary Ann Conley last week

[josie7644]

The 1851 census I mentioned earlier with Henry Conolly with correct age as pauper.
The index ref is correct HO107 2222/0/0 possibly as it has several pages with different page numbers.
So you can try HO107 2222/81/80
Union School. Pendleton. Salford. Lanceshire.

Hi Richard,

Thanks for the link!

I’ve just been looking at the 1851 census return, which is one of the water-damaged ones, so it’s difficult to read! I can make out Henry Conolly 10 and I think it indicates “born in county” but I’m not sure!

Had a look on Freebmd and found a Henry Connelly birth in Manchester, in the first Q of 1841, vol 20 page 591.

In the 1841 census, young Henry is aged 4 weeks and from the description of the enumeration district, he appears to be in Collyhurst. There is a 45-year-old John who could be his father, whose occupation is weaver. From the ages of the people, it appears that May, 30, is his second wife and the mother of young Henry. He seems to have two other children, Ann 22 and Cornelius 19. There is also a 66-year-old Ann Connelly, in the household, who could be his mother.

(HO107; Piece 574; Book: 7; Enumeration District: 11; Folio: 41; Page: 32)
(Census reference, crown copyright in the care of TNA)

Of course, there is no way of knowing whether this HC is Barry’s HC!


Not much further on.....

Josie

[Richard1955]

I searched bmd 1837 - 1843 all UK and all variants.
I found the one in Manchester and another in Liverpool. Both stayed in the areas for the census
and both father's are John.
I found another in Birmingham on the early census but with a father John. I can't find the birth but think
this is the one and father John is James John or vice-versa. If someone can find this birth then I thing the certificate
is worth ordering. I'll find the reference for you.
1851. HO107 2052/329/32 but seeing it again makes me think it's less likely as father John is a Taylor.
I have to give up now Barry. Sorry.
I found myself typing Conley-Conelly etc in my sleep last night.
Good luck

[cearnegiant]

Thanks for all help.

[olliecat]

I thought I’d have a look for another child of Henry/Mary’s this morning and decided to try son Henry HUMPHRIES, born abt 1866 in Birmingham. I couldn’t see him under the name CONLEY. A possibility in the census is...

1891: RG12 Piece: 2873 Folio: 130 Page: 29 (crown copyright, care of the TNA)
55 Nelson Road, St Peters, Higher Bebington, Birkenhead, Cheshire
HUMPHRIES, Harry, head, 25, Crane Driver, Birmingham
HUMPHRIES, Martha, wife, 24, St Helens Lancashire
HUMPHRIES, George A, son, 4 Parkgate Cheshire
HUMPHRIES, Helen B, daughter, 2 Ellesmere Port Cheshire
HUMPHRIES, Annie M, daughter, 2 mo, Rock Ferry Cheshire

Looking on the Cheshire BMD, a possible marriage for the couple above is Martha NORMAN to Harry HUMPHRIES. Also shown on FreeBMD...

Marriages Dec 1885 Wirral 8a 715
Humphries Harry
Norman Martha

NOTE: The Henry Humphreys who married Martha Yates in 1883 in Warwickshire is a different Henry. This marriage is on FamilySearch and the birth date for this Henry was recorded as 1846.

Looking on the Cheshire and Lancashire BMD sites for a birth for one of children listed in the census, there is a birth for Harry HUMPHRIES, in 1901, Bootle sub-registration district. Mother's maiden name is NELSON.

Back to the census. Martha is a widow in the 1901 and 1911 census.

1901: RG13 Piece: 3463 Folio: 178 Page: 43 (crown copyright, care of the TNA)

1911: RG14/22423 SN51

A possible death for Henry...

Deaths Jun 1900 W. Derby 8b 289
Humphries Henry
Age 34

I don't know for certain if this is your Henry Humphreys in the 1891 census, but he is the closest match I can find; however it is not conclusive.

[olliecat]

So there is Henry Humphries birth abt 1871,William Conley birth abt 1874 and Joseph Conley born abt 1881.Joseph appears on 1901 census RG13 2835 153 53.

Just had a look at Joseph CONLEY as per the census ref you provided.

1901: RG13 Piece: 2835 Folio: 153 Page: 53 (crown copyright, care of the TNA)
41, 3 Court House, Barford Street, Birmingham
CONLEY, Joe , head, 20, tin plate worker, Birmingham
CONLEY, Clara, wife, 22, furniture painter, Birmingham
CONLEY, Rose, sister, 18, furniture painter, Birmingham
CONLEY, Polly, sister, 9, Birmingham

This is interesting, since Joseph has a couple of sisters with him that seem to have turned up magically out of nowhere. Wondering if you have Joseph's marriage certificate, to make sure it has his father as Henry. (Although I have found a possible marriage for sister Rose, but I will come back to that.)

This could be Joseph's marriage...

Marriages Sep 1900 Birmingham 6d 100
Conley Joseph
Couley Joseph
Maguire Margaret
Reason Clara
Scott Arthur

In 1911 they are still in Birmingham, enumerated as CORLEY. Alas! Joseph's father Henry is not present.

RG14/18158 SN78

[cearnegiant]

Thanks for research.Henry Humphries was born before Henry Conolly married. The Joe you have with the sisters is Henry Conollys son.The one sister listed Polly Conley is illigitimate daughter of Sarah Conley.On the 1911 Wicketts census Polly wicketts is that same girl,listed has polly wicketts. There is on rg11 2982 100 33 1981 census for Henry Connelly a baby listed called Walter,Checked birth records for him,could be daughter of Charlotte[ the one with prison record] Nightmare family to research, Have spent fortune on birth certificates,,,,,,,Thanks again Barry

[olliecat]

Have you figured out Rose CONLEY? I wondered about this marriage from FamilySearch (although the birth date for Rose is a bit out)...

groom's name: Henry Alfred Cottevill
groom's birth date: 1878
groom's age: 23
bride's name: Rose Conley
bride's birth date: 1881
bride's age: 20
marriage date: 17 Aug 1901
marriage place: Birmingham, Warwick, England
groom's father's name: Henry Alfred Cottevill
bride's father's name: Henry Conley
groom's marital status: Single
bride's marital status: Single

[cearnegiant]

Not found who Rose was yet.interesting information for me to research, The Henry Humphries in Cheshire interesting.I have noted that there were Conleys in that area also. If the Henry Conolly [1866 marrage] was born in Ireland , he was not Catholic because he married in Anglian church in Birmingham.He wuld be proberly from the north Ireland,From that area I would have thoght they would come into country via Liverpool.I think Maybe look into Conolly/Conley Liverpool area. Just maybe why Henry Humphries could have married in Ellesmere Port,Could have been family there???

[Richard1955]

That is just the clue we have been waiting for Barry. Married in Ellesmere Port.
CONLEY, James Head Married M 47 1814 Dock Labourer. Ireland
CONLEY, Mary Wife Married F 37 1824 Ireland
CONLEY, Thomas Son Unmarried M 20 1841 Dock Labourer. Ireland
CONLEY, Patrick Son Unmarried M 12 1849 Scholar. Liverpool. Lancashire
CONLEY, Eliza Daughter Unmarried F 7 1854 Scholar. Birkenhead. Cheshire
RODDY, Rose Servant Unmarried F 15 1846 House Servant. Liverpool. Lancashire
RG09 Piece:2642 Folio:105 Page:43
Copyright TNA
So if this is Henry's parents then he would have been born in Ireland

[cearnegiant]

This very good lead.Noticed in some of my many searches through later marrages in Birmingham the names Patrick Conley and Eliza Conley have appeared.I am determined to see this research through and if I find the links I promise to let you know.The only fly in ointment could be occupation of James Conley. On Henry's marrage certificate shows fathers occupation Plane Maker.You really are a star thanks again

[Richard1955]

I agree about the fly in the ointment but there is 5 years between the census and the marriage so it is possible
Perhaps plane making was something to do with dock work. I dunno!
I also wonder if Olliecat has found Pamela yet ?

[cearnegiant]

Fully agree poor Henry could not get his name or age right. I could find no births for Pamela

[cearnegiant]

Up date.Mary Ann Conley Death Certificate shows died 5 Oct 1905,Address given 111 Upper Trinity Street Birmingham,Wife of Henry Conley Coal Wharfe Labourer,Informant of death Fanny Gray Daughter.This seems to point at 1901 census showing that for some reason Henry Conley and Mary ann Conley listed under name of Humphries,Which was Mary Ann's maiden name.