Jonathan [John] Fisher

[eazytime]

I'm attempting to link my first ancestor in Virginia to England. According to a disposition he made in 1694, he was about 48 years old at the time, which would have made his birth about 1646 or 1647. There are several records that suggest he was a merchant trading with Virginia in the 1670s and 1680s. He settled in New Kent Co, Virginia before 1690. He was married to Rebecca and had at least one son named Benjamin.

I found several records for a John and Rebecca Fisher who had a son named Benjamin and a daughter named Mary in Hampshire. I have also found birth records for John Fisher and Rebecca Ryves [Reeves] in Hampshire also.

John Fisher: b. 19 Mar 1647 BISHOPS WALTHAM,HAMPSHIRE,ENGLAND
Rebecca Ryves: b. 28 Jun 1649 BISHOPS WALTHAM,HAMPSHIRE,ENGLAND
Benjamine Fisher: b. 28 Feb 1673 Hampshire, England
Mary Fisher: b. 26 Apr 1676 Hampshire, England

Looking for anyone that may have additional information about these Hampshire residents. Be happy to share all my research also.

[Raffaele]

Bishops Waltham is just outside of Southampton. The IGI has another John Fisher baptized Southampton.
One could argue that as a potential trader with the US it is more likely that the city born man is yours rather than one born in a nearby village. This merely highlights how difficult it is to prove the association.

JOHN FISHER
Christening: 09 MAY 1745 All Saints, Southampton, Hampshire, England
Father: JOHN FISHER
Batch C137563

I only managed to find a baptism for Mary on the IGI but this was a strange entry and had her baptized in Dorset, Hampshire.
The Dorset border is not far from Southampton.

I could find nothing on FreeReg.

Can you advise the source of your information please, then perhaps we can be more helpful.

[sueannbowen]

The Hampshire Marriage Index 1660 to 1753 does not record a marriage between John Fisher and Rebecca Ryves/Reeves. If their first child was born in 1673 it is not unreasonable to hope they were married about then. As Raffaele says, it would be helpful to know how you found out what you found out.

[sueannbowen]

JOHN FISHER
Christening: 09 MAY 1745 All Saints, Southampton, Hampshire, England
Father: JOHN FISHER
Batch C137563


Is this one a bit late Raffaele?

[Raffaele]

Is this one a bit late Raffaele?

You would think so and I obviously mistyped the year BUT

JOHN FISHER
Christening: 26 MAY 1746 Bishops Waltham, Hampshire, England
Father: JOHN FISHER Mother: JANE
Batch J146691

I found the other by expanding the year range. Does this mean the family was still in Bishops Waltham 100 years later.

John and Rebecca with the dates above are on the IGI as is this

JOHN FISHER
Spouse: ELIZABETH CRISBY
Marriage: 29 SEP 1673 Bishops Waltham, Hampshire, England
Batch M146691

We do need to know Eazytime's source of information as this does pose rather a sizeable question mark for the theory originally posted.

[Kerrywood]

We do need to know Eazytime's source of information

Specifically, is there any evidence they came from Hampshire?

[eazytime]

Hi, thanks for the reply.

I found these records on: https://www.familysearch.org/. I was wondering if John and Rebecca were born in Bishops Waltham and subsequently relocated to London. My original research focused on London as their residence but have not been able to find any online records that match the birth/marriage dates as well as these.

The John Fisher mentioned in your email couldn't be mine because of the christening date.

My John Fisher was born 1646-47 time frame. I have this from a a deposition he made in 1694 when he stated his age was about 48 years. I have references to his trading activities in 1672 and 1678 where he is identified as a merchant and is receiving tobacco payments for his trade goods. These records are for the Port of London. I have one more reference for 1684 also. I think he relocated to Virginia between 1684 and 1690.

The 1673 birth year for his son Benjamin matches closely the DOB the research had suggested.

thanks for your help,
Craig

[eazytime]

There isn't. I don't have any source information as to their English location other than some merchant records for the Port of London.

1672
Fisher, Jn. -- merchant -- 1672, SR 04201b, p. 35.
p. 35 -- 67.. Fisher; Master: Chris Eveling; Tobo: 4000 lbs.
Public Record Office Class E 190/56/1. Port Books; Port of London; Controller; Imports to London of Denizen (English) Merchants 29 December 1671 - 28 December 1672
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1678
Fisher, Jn. -- merchant -- 1678, SR 05762c, p. 61, 62. Freighted in Virginia
p. 61 -- 7 August 1678 -- 31. Jn. Fisher; Master: Thos. Smith; Tobo: 2400 lbs
p. 62 -- 8 August 1678 -- 31. Jn. Fisher; Master: Thos. Lucy; Tobo: 210 lbs
Public Record Office Class E 190/75/1. Title Port Books; Port of London; English merchant´s imports to London; record made by the Controller of Tunnage and Poundage. 29 Dec. 1677 - 28 Dec. 1678

[olliecat]

Benjamine Fisher: b. 28 Feb 1673 Hampshire, England
Mary Fisher: b. 26 Apr 1676 Hampshire, England.

Both of these are non-conformist (Quaker) entries from the register of births belonging to the Quarterly Meeting of Hampshire. There isn't that much additional information on either of the originals entries additionally to that which is transcribed on FamilySearch. In both cases, the abode of the parents John and Rebecca was recorded as Whitechurch, Hampshire.

[eazytime]

Thank you for the additional information.

[eazytime]

the abode of the parents John and Rebecca was recorded as Whitechurch, Hampshire.

Do you happen to have a QM entry for Cuthbert Ryves also?

thanks.

[olliecat]

Do you happen to have a QM entry for Cuthbert Ryves also?


Is the baptism you are asking about, found on FamilySearch...

name:Cuthbert Ryves
gender:Male
baptism/christening date:28 Apr 1639
baptism/christening place:BISHOPS WALTHAM,HAMPSHIRE,ENGLAND
father's name:Cuthbert Ryves
indexing project (batch) number:J14669-1
system origin:England-ODM
source film number:1042025

Checking the souce film number 1042025 in the catalogue, the entry came from the Parish registers for Bishops-Waltham, 1612-1904.

In other words, it's a Church of England baptism record and not a Quaker birth/baptism record.

[Raffaele]

Without wishing to be contentious it seems to me that the evidence suggests that the original theory is wrong.
Whilst a Rebecca Ryves was born in Bishops Waltham, the John Fisher from that village seems to have married an Elizabeth.
Bishops Waltham looks like an agricultural village and not the sort of place a Tobacco merchant would have lived in the 1600's.
The selected children were baptized quite some distance from the Bishops Waltham or Southampton as Whitchurch is North of Winchester.

The only evidence we have is from the US and the ships documents in London.
We need a marriage or birth in or around London with an occupation of Tobacco Merchant for the Groom/Father

I cannot find one. It also raises the question, did he marry here or in the US ?
What evidence is there of Benjamin's age.

[eazytime]

Without wishing to be contentious it seems to me that the evidence suggests that the original theory is wrong.
I cannot find one. It also raises the question, did he marry here or in the US ?
What evidence is there of Benjamin's age.

I agree. I came to the same conclusion when John and Rebecca were identified as quakers. Jonathan and his son were slave holders in Virginia and it is my understanding that this was not a practice condoned by the Quakers.

I have no evidence that Jonathan didn't marry in Virginia but the shipping records up to 1684 and some documents in Virginia strongly suggest that Benjamin was at lease 21 years in 1701, which means that he was born at least by 1680.

I have been working on the theory that Jonathan was a member of a well-to-do family because of the "seed" capital needed to finance his trading ventures. I have assumed that his family were probably merchants.

One of the problems I have been working through is the fact that Jonathan initially settled in New Kent County which then became King & Queen County. Most of the records for this area were lost so the only records from this time is information recorded in other counties. Although it wasn't the largest patent granted in Virginia, Jonathan in conjunction with Joshua Storey and James Taylor, received a patent for 9150 acres in this same area in 1693 for transporting 183 persons. Taylor was identified as a merchant in this patent. Storey, Taylor, and Fisher all shipped on a ship named Augustine, whose master was Zachery Taylor, who may have been a relative of James Taylor.

One other thing that suggests that Jonathan also came from a merchant family is that there was a Benjamin Fisher, master of Advantage (1674). He may or may not have been related.

Long on maybes and could bes and very light on hard information to identify where in England he came from. If there is an answer it probably isn't in any of the online databases. I think I have searched everyone I could find for free or pay for.

Thanks to everyone who offer information or advice.