Charles Moore in Donegal

[Narelle]

I am researching Charles Moore who married Margaret/Mary Robinson c 1898 in Donegal. They appear in the 1901 Irish census with their daughter Isabella aged 1 year.

By 1911 Margaret is married to an Andrew Stafford and all her children to Charles are stated as step children to Andrew. The children are :
Isabella aged 11
John William aged 10
Charles aged 8
Frances Anne J aged 7
Violet Margaret aged 5
Andrew aged 3

Charles is believed to have died in an unmarked grave c 1907/08.
Is there any way I can locate online death records for Donegal around this time? I have checked the IGI ancestry, genuki, but nothing so far. Are there any Irish newspapers online? I live in Australia so am unable to visit any repositories locally.
Any suggestions would be much appreciated.
Kindest regards
Narelle

[grisel]

Have you been able to discount the death of Charles Moore age 30 jan - mar 1907 in Letterkenny? (from family search)

[obbie]

hi
that death would seem a good bet
Charles Moore Letterkenny deaths Jan - Mar 1907 Age at Death 30 (1877 ?) Volume 2 Page 126
especially as
Charles Moore wed Margaret Robinson letterkenny (donegal) marriages oct dec 1898 volume 2 page 127

if you go into (google) rootsireland.ie a pay per view but search for free site , register and go into co donegal (go down left column to countys) search just charles moore and you get list of BMD,s the 1907 death looks good . (should give parish church so you could ask someone to search ther burial records if they exist)

then click on marriage list , the 1898 marriage you can now enter the wifes name in advanced box and yes its there marriage cost 5 euros . you get a typed copy of whatever is in the church record .

now search for moore births just , enter charles as filter and you can hit advanced enter mothers surname
isabella 1899 Ng 1901 frances ann 1904 andrew 1907
entrys are typed out copys of usually church baptism
please note its worth playing around with records before you decide to purchase try moor and nicknames for charles you may find more results you can purchase 1 record at a time for 5 euros or get all the kids births at discount price 12 ish ? .

charles birth 1877 ish , theres 1873 and 1888 he might not have been born in donegal though age can be out quite a few years in ireland at this time especially in country as age or birth dates wernt seen as important .
if you buy marriage you should get fathers first name which will enable you to search this site also for charles birth .

i just looked at familysearch site again this jumped out to me anyhow . there are quite a few .
google irish naming traditions for children . isabella is there first child john second .
Charles Moor Birth 04 Dec 1871 Donegal, Ireland Father John Moor Mother's Isabella Elliott . seems to fit nicely
possible birth place church hill donegal (ive never herd of it !)
Charles Moor Letterkenny born 1871 Volume 17 Page 188

strange ! search for siblings and all you get is dates no first names sometimes you get 1 or 2 ?
1 march 1864 moore
13 april 1867 moore
23 dec 1867 church hill
17 april 1869 church hill
8 aug 1870 church hill
4 dec 1871 charles church hill

i do hope this is correct ! heres there marriage i think !
John Moore and Isabella Elliott 06 Jan 1863 Marriage Place Gartan Donegal
Groom's Father James Moore
Bride's Father Stephen Elliott

John Moore and iasbella elliot (details match)
Letterkenny marriages 1863 Volume 6 Page 559
as catholic BMD records start 1864 pro 1845 we can assume couple pro
so you may if this data proves true be able to go back another generation , ill not search now but if you buy some baptism deaths marriages certs from rootsireland and above prooves true ill search for you .

the certs you get from rootsireland are copys typed of church registers
the event year district volume and page certs are the certs from someones birth marriage or death notified to the goverment
google roscommon GRO for there address if you write to them give the data given event volume page and 4 euros for each cert you want these certs will differ from parish records
you can order and pay by fax sounds a bit dodge but only way they accept credit cards .
takes about a week 10 days in ireland so 2 weeks to oz !

good luck hope datas correct for you do let us know how you get on ill gladly help anyway i can Obbie

[obbie]

for got newspapers search irishnewsarchive .
if there a poor family there will be no obits printed , if hes no gravestone id say poor ?

[Narelle]

Thank you so much Grisel and Obbie for your great help. I will look into all your suggestions. My knowledge of the locations of towns and counties in Ireland is limited but Letterkenny is looking very promising. I will check it out. Thanks also for the newspaper archive link too. I don't know the details but it seems that Charles somehow disgraced his family and they chose to bury him in a unmarked grave for his troubles when he died. I will let you know how I go.
Kindest regards Narelle

[obbie]

http://
freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~donegal/gartan/chhname.htm

search for your moore births there
charles dad john Churchtown Gartan Donegal ? on 1901 census
charles is Glenbeagh Gartan Donegal on 1901 census
Roshin is the townland Conwal the parish charles born

http://www.logainm.ie/Viewer.aspx?tab=map top right corner into english search townland and parish
http://applications.proni.gov.uk/DCAL_PRONI_WillsCalendar/WillsSearch.aspx worth a look
google osi.ie click into map of ireland enter parish
http://www.askaboutireland.ie/griffith-valuation/index.xml john moore is on griffiths val

[obbie]

January 9 1863

January 6, at Gartan Church, by the Rev. H. Maturin, Rector of the Parish, MR. JOHN MOORE, of Carratrasus, to ISABELLA ELLIOTT, Gartan Glebe, youngest daughter of the late MR. STEPHEN ELLIOTT, of Ragory, Fannet

Obbie

[Narelle]

Hi Obbie,
I am working through your info slowly and am interested in John Moore and Isabella Elliott being Charles parents. The family believe that Charles parents were James MOORE and Frances Ann STEWART. This doesn't fit with the usual naming conventions as their second daughter is said to be named after her father's mother. Maybe it is possible that Isabella is named after her mother's mother. I thought the convention was father's father, fathers's mother, mother's father mother's mother. Is that correct?
Narelle

[obbie]

hi narelle
as i say ive just joined data that may fit !
you need to start off with isabellas birth
her parents marriage , which gives fathers names and addresses
charles birth , hopfully will be same parish
charles parents marriage

buy one cert at a time either from roscommon if youve the patience to wait (about 5-10 days)
or buy from rootsireland site for 5 euros each
you can search same site for a charles born to other couple you mention .

if it was i id buy one cert at time and see what that leads to

this is there marriage as you can see charles father is john but when you put in isabella elliott no result , but maybe her name was misspelt or left out of record , so charles paps was john . youll just have to buy either marriage record to see address occupation and mothers name if supplied .
Marriage Records for Co. Donegal
Surname : moore
First Name : charles
Spouse's Surname : robinson
Spouse's First Name : margaret
Father's Surname: moore
Father's First Name : john
Mother's Surname:
Mother's First Name :

when it comes to naming tradition , catholics used it a lot pro familys not so much and every family differed it was a tradition not a strict rule

play around with the rootsireland site esp the advanced buttons you can get lots of info for nothing without paying a penny .

goodluck

[grisel]

If the 1907 death in Letterkenny turns out to be your Charles and if you are specifically interested in finding his burial place - I would start by considering St Columba's Church of Ireland in Gartan ( Charles was Cof I in 1901 census, Gartan) I don't know if their graveyard was being used in 1907. This is in Conwal parish. If he is not recorded in Gartan you may need to widen your search to cemeteries in Conwal or in Leck.

I've also come upon a useful site with free information called Donegal Genealogy Resources.
The Charles Moore and Isabella Elliot already mentioned are there together with the 1871 birth in Gartan of a Chatrles Moore , Roshin Townland, Conwal parish, to John and Isabella.

Also can you tell us where the family got their information that Charles' parents were James Moore and Frances Ann Stewart?

[grisel]

I can see the 1862 marriage in Clondahorky Donegal between James and Frances Ann. Parents Richard Moor and Charles Stewart.

I can also see a number of children to this couple including a Charles in 1867 (all from family Search)

[Narelle]

Hell Obbie,
I think the Charles death in Letterkenny is the correct one and will check with the church first before buying any cert Thanks for the Donegal site. I did write you a long reply a few days ago but the computer lost it before posting. I did find some information from this site and found it very useful. I will have to look back on my records to find out just what I did find.

The info on Charles parents being Frances Ann Stewart and James Moore comes from information the family knows is correct. The story goes that their grandmother Frances Anne MOORE born 1904 was named after her grandmother of the same name. I found James and Frances Ann Moore in the LDS records plus their son Charles born in 1867 (the date given by the family) and about 6 other siblings. I will be working on the tree again later this afternoon so will let you know where I am up to then.
Kind regards Narelle

[grisel]

Hi Narelle

There seem to be two (or more) Charles Moores around. One b 1867 son of James Moore and Frances Ann Stewart in Dunfanaghy, the other b 1871 son of John Moore and Isabella Elliot in Gartan.

As you are sure that your Charles is son of James and Frances, how sure are you that he is the Charles who married Margaret Robinson and was in Gartan in 1901 census?

The 1898 wedding cert for Charles and Margaret should give father's name.

The 1907 death may - or may not - state husband of Margaret and match the 1901 census information, but unless you know that it was your Charles who married Margaret it will not prove anything. Does that make sense?

Doyou have other information which would help - Charles' siblings names perhaps.

There is another Charles Moore of the right age in Dunfanaghy in 1901 but sadly he is son of George and Mary!

If you are doing a long reply it is better to copy and paste it in - really frustrating when you lose it but we've all done it.

[grisel]

The info on Charles parents being Frances Ann Stewart and James Moore comes from information the family knows is correct. The story goes that their grandmother Frances Anne MOORE born 1904 was named after her grandmother of the same name. I found James and Frances Ann Moore in the LDS records plus their son Charles born in 1867 (the date given by the family) and about 6 other siblings.


Is the Frances Ann J Moore on the 1911 census with mother Margaret (post no 1) the Frances Ann, granddaughter of Frances Ann Stewart Moore? If so this puts your Charles and family in the Gartan area in 1901 and 1911, making the 1907 death more likely.

I would still be interested in checking Margaret and Charles wedding cert tho.

Would also be interested to find out what happened to the other Charles s/o John and Isabella...

[obbie]

this is why you need to work back one cert at a time .
but as the info given on site that records there marriage says that charles father is john not james ?
you need to buy the cert to be sure your not chaseing down the wrong family , family make assumptions that turn into fact .
a birth marriage or death cert is the only way to go .
Marriage Records for Co. Donegal
Surname : moore
First Name : charles
Spouse's Surname : robinson
Spouse's First Name : margaret
Father's Surname: moore
Father's First Name : john

[Narelle]

Thanks Obbie and Grisel, You have both been really helpful. I agree I need to purchase the marriage cert of Charles Moore and Margaret Robinson and Charles birth cert. Where do I purchase them from? I have contacted the church at Gartan and am waiting for a reply. Kindest regards Narelle

[grisel]

See Obbie's post no 3 about ordering photocopy from Roscommon or downloading from Roots Ireland the marriage cert for Charles and Margaret. This seems a definite as margaret is mother of Frances Ann b1904, your known relative.

Wait till you have seen this before you order anything else. Look at parents, witmessses, addresses, occupations (if given)

At the moment it is looking to me very likely that Charles is son of John rather than James.... but let us know how you get on.

[obbie]

id have to agree with grisel it looks to me as if charles father is john not james .
you can get a lot of info for free from the roots ireland site by inputing your guesses into the advanced box .
buy one cert at a time make sure your following the correct paper trail .
let us know how you get on ,
the same family name with same first names in the same area id say there gonna be all related to you anyhow youll have kin climbing out of the woodwork !
goodluck

[Narelle]

Hi Obbie,
I would be very happy if they started jumping out of the woodwork. I must say this is the most success I have had with any Irish research.

I did purchase the birth marriage and death transcriptions for Charles and they were very thin on the ground for information. The death told me no more than I had gleaned from the free search. The marriage gave Charles fa. name as John (a farmer) and Margaret's fa. name as John too (a railway officer). The witnesses were Moses Neely and Mary Moore. The birth transcription gave Charles fa. as James and his mo. as Frances Stewart. It also confirmed one of two birth dates that we had for Charles although this could still be the wrong one if his father was really John and not James. So there is really nothing new to go by so a little disappointing.

If I request the certificates from Roscommon will there be more information or just the same as I now already have?
Kindest regards
Narelle

[obbie]

hi
id order the certs from roscommon as they only cost 4 euros if you have the event year area and volume and page no,s .
the death cert will tell how he died where and the informant .
birth marriage certs will give some more info address occupation witnesses etc etc .
so do we now think your charles fathers first name was john ?

[obbie]

just rereading through everything again .
so
Charles Moor Birth 04 Dec 1871 Donegal, Ireland Father John Moor Mother's Isabella Elliott . church hill donegal .
Charles Moor Letterkenny born 1871 Volume 17 Page 188
you can buy the correct birth 1871 from same website you bought other ones just make sure you put fathers first name in as john in advanced box , details should match up to info above .
this would seem to fit now from charles moore,s marriage saying fathers name john and his first two children named john and isabella .
on web site theres only the one birth to father john so it would seem to be correct .

http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Donegal/Gartan/Churchtown/1187111/
might well be his dad and witness-sister mary

[Narelle]

Hi Obbie,
Thanks for your help. I will get the certs and see what they reveal. I will let you know.
Kind regards for all your help.
Narelle

[jimmoore]

Hi Narelle
I stumbled across this thread by accident and am intrigued by your reference to James Moore and Frances Ann Stewart because they were my great-grandparents, making Charles Moore my great-uncle. He was airbrushed out of our family history and never spoken about which kind of ties in with an earlier comment of yours. Recently, I researched him and discovered that he is listed as a WW1 war dead and is buried in Manchester, England. This would suggest that he is not your ancestor, unless he left his wife and absconded rather than died. How did your research progress since your posts in May?

[Richardsm]

jimmoore. Hello. Very interested in your note about Charles Moore. My father was a Charles Moore born in Ballymore in 1905. His father was Samuel Moore the son of James Moore and Frances Stewart. It would appear that the above Charles may be a great uncle also ! Samuel Moore and family of six boys and one girl moved to Londonderry around 1920. I would be interested to find out more about Charles and also any information about James Moore in 1862

[Narelle]

Hello Jimmoore and Richardsm, First of all sorry I missed your posting back in September Jim and thanks for making contact both of you. My sister in law will be so excited. I made contact with another relative of hers just prior to Christmas and he was able to send a photo of his great grandmother Frances Moore (Charles sister). Frances Moore moved to the USA and had two husbands and Brenden is descended from there. When I first gathered information from my sis in law she gave me Charles death date as a definite 1907 and said that he had been buried in an unmarked grave as some kind of eternal punishment. My thoughts at the time were that he may have been having an affair or he was somehow involved with the "other size" of things being a Protestant. I am no nearer to finding an answer to that so far. I have a created a small family tree from the research I have found and would love to share it with you both. Please email me at narelleATcatling.org
Cheers Narelle

[jimmoore]

Hi Richard
From your info I know who you are and yes, the Charles Moore I wrote about is definitely your great-uncle. He left home sometime in the late 1800s and never made contact again. About six years ago I discovered he was a soldier during WW1 and classified a war dead. He enlisted in the Royal Field Artillery in 1916 at Crewe in Cheshire and had been living in Nantwich. He did not die in action, but from Spanish Flu, and is buried in a Roman Catholic cemetery in Manchester. Interestingly, he had given as his next of kin, your grandfather Sam Moore even though his parents were still alive. I do have an amount of info about your ancestors and extended family, and if you are interested in it you can email me at

jimmoore02 AT aol DOT com

Hope to hear from you.