john patrick bates walsall

[kev1965]

hi, folks am coming up against a brick wall i need any info on a john patrick bates all i have is he was born about 1852 in rugeley staffs he was married too a sarah williams not sure when,... sarah was born in about 1855 in brewood staffs ,all i know is they had 2 children sarah jane bates born about 1890 & adam bates born about 1900 in walsall staffs any help whatsoever would be really welcomed thanks all....kev

[RonOne]

adam bates born about 1900 in walsall staffs

Births Mar 1900
Bates Adam - Walsall 6b 809

Adam Bates
Baptism/Christening: 22 Sep 1902 at St. Mary, Walsall, Stafford
Father: Patritii Joannis Bates
Mother: Sarae Williams
Source: Family Search - Source Film Number: 1999483

[Richard1955]

1901 Census: RG13 2702/9/9
John b1852. Sarah b1855, Sarah b1892 Cannock. Adam b1900 Walsall. and many lodgers.
(record held by TNA, Crown copyright)

1911 census: RG14PN17173 RG78PN1057 RD370 SD3 ED16 SN96.

1911 census data removed by moderator

[valg]

Births Mar 1900
Bates Adam - Walsall 6b 809

Adam Bates
Baptism/Christening: 22 Sep 1902 at St. Mary, Walsall, Stafford
Father: Patritii Joannis Bates
Mother: Sarae Williams
Source: Family Search - Source Film Number: 1999483

Adam bates-Walsall-March births-1900
The obvious question here is the large age difference between Sarah Jane and Adam, which poses the question could she have been John or Sarahs daughter born before they were together? Sarah is quite easy to find on the 61,71 and 81 and 1901. 1911 census but not obvious in 1891 On the latest census Sarah is widowed and there is a John Henry Dorkin 1883 Hednesford Staff, listed as her brother, now cant find anything on him but using Williams there is a good fit for him living with parents Sarah Jane and David Williams in 1881living in Cannock. If it is Sarahs brother there is a large age gap and there is also his parents are way to young to be Sarahs parents so what is the relationship.

[valg]

Sarah Jane Bates-Channock-Mar births-1892

FOUND IT

[kev1965]

hi thanks for this very useful info its really appreciated...kev
Births Mar 1900
Bates Adam - Walsall 6b 809

Adam Bates
Baptism/Christening: 22 Sep 1902 at St. Mary, Walsall, Stafford
Father: Patritii Joannis Bates
Mother: Sarae Williams
Source: Family Search - Source Film Number: 1999483

[kev1965]

thanks valg very helpful as always, was wondering if you could find any info on her father john patrick bates...best wishes...kev

[grisel]

In the 1871 census in Rugeley there is a John Bates b1855 . Can only look at the index but I think with parents William b1821and Ellen b1818 and brothers Henry, Timothy and Adam. Might be worth looking at.

I can see a marriage with a Willaim Bates and an Ellen Morley burt not till 1853 in Lichfield reg district.

And a christening of Joannes Bate 24 Feb 1856, Joseph and Ethelreda, Rugely . Parents Guglielmi (William) Bate and Helenae Morley Bate. from family search.

A birth of a John Bates in Lichfield reg dist Jun 1855

But no mention of Patrick anywhere so may not be yours.

[valg]

hi, folks am coming up against a brick wall i need any info on a john patrick bates all i have is he was born about 1852 in rugeley staffs he was married too a sarah williams not sure when,... sarah was born in about 1855 in brewood staffs ,all i know is they had 2 children sarah jane bates born about 1890 & adam bates born about 1900 in walsall staffs any help whatsoever would be really welcomed thanks all....kev

Kev where did you get Sarah Williams name from? Because you noted the children were brn about 1890 and 1900 am I right to assume you dont have either birth certificate? I realise that Ronone has posted a baptism record but you already had Williams
Sarah and John were quite "old" when their first child Srah Jane was born I am wondering if either had been married before.
Sarah is living in Brewood in 1871 it is noted she is sister in law to Herbert Witacre, wife Louisa, so theory Louisa should be her sister, only marriage between 1865-66 marriage in 1866 for Herbert Whittaker to Fanny Deakin, now Deakin is very close to Dorkin I found in 1911 when John Henry Dorkin was listed as her brother.

[olliecat]

Sarah is living in Brewood in 1871 it is noted she is sister in law to Herbert Witacre, wife Louisa, so theory Louisa should be her sister, only marriage between 1865-66 marriage in 1866 for Herbert Whittaker to Fanny Deakin, now Deakin is very close to Dorkin I found in 1911 when John Henry Dorkin was listed as her brother.

For the Louisa Whitacre you found in 1871, perhaps there is this slightly later marriage...

Marriages Jun 1869 Penkridge 6b 545
Thomas Sarah Ann
Whitehouse Thomas
Whittaker Herbert
Williams Louisa

I suspect the Sarah Williams staying with sister Louisa Whittaker in 1871 may be a different Sarah to the one that is in the later census with John Bates. Examining Louisa, on some census she says she was born in Kiddermore Green, Staffs. So this could be her in the 1861 census, with her sister Sarah...

1861: RG09 Piece:1980 Folio:84 Page:8 (crown copyright, care of the TNA)
Kiddermore Green, Brewood
TURNER, James, head, 65, Locksmith Almsman, Brewood Staffordshire
TURNER, Ann, wife, 50, Locksmiths Wife, Blymhill Staffordshire
WILLIAMS, Louisa, stepdaughter, 9, Brewood Staffordshire
TURNER, Sarah, daughter, 4, Brewood Staffordshire

There is also a possible marriage between a Sarah Turner and Thomas Beard in 1873, (Penkridge reg district.)

Marriages Sep 1873 Penkridge 6b 655
BEARD Thomas
Green Mary
Shrigley David
Tumer Sarah
TUMES Sarah
TURNER Sarah

A Thomas Beard and Sarah (born abt 1856 Brewood) can be found in the 1881 to 1911 census. Of course, can't be sure about any of this without the marriage details. There is another Sarah Williams, born abt 1856 in Brewood, daughter of James and Hannah.

1861: Class: RG9; Piece: 1980; Folio: 87; Page: 13 (crown copyright, care of the TNA)

[olliecat]

Kev where did you get Sarah Williams name from? Because you noted the children were brn about 1890 and 1900 am I right to assume you dont have either birth certificate? I realise that Ronone has posted a baptism record but you already had Williams
Sarah and John were quite "old" when their first child Srah Jane was born I am wondering if either had been married before.


As Valg has mentioned, obtaining a birth certificate for one of John and Sarah's children might be a good idea, to make sure of Sarah's maiden name.

Incidentally, I guess this could be daughter Sarah Jane's baptism...

name: Sarah Jane Bate
gender:Female
baptism/christening date: 07 Feb 1892
baptism/christening place: Hednesford, Stafford, England
father's name: John Bate
mother's name: Sarah

[kev1965]

hi valg i got the info from a relative who has adam bates birth cert it states adam bates born january 1900 at 6 peal street walsall staffordshire father john bates mother sarah bates formerley williams i dont know if either john bates or sarah williams had been previousley married as for the dorking deakin surname i havent heard this mentioned before regards...kev
Kev where did you get Sarah Williams name from? Because you noted the children were brn about 1890 and 1900 am I right to assume you dont have either birth certificate? I realise that Ronone has posted a baptism record but you already had Williams
Sarah and John were quite "old" when their first child Srah Jane was born I am wondering if either had been married before.
Sarah is living in Brewood in 1871 it is noted she is sister in law to Herbert Witacre, wife Louisa, so theory Louisa should be her sister, only marriage between 1865-66 marriage in 1866 for Herbert Whittaker to Fanny Deakin, now Deakin is very close to Dorkin I found in 1911 when John Henry Dorkin was listed as her brother.

[valg]

For the Louisa Whitacre you found in 1871, perhaps there is this slightly later marriage...

Marriages Jun 1869 Penkridge 6b 545
Thomas Sarah Ann
Whitehouse Thomas
Whittaker Herbert
Williams Louisa

I suspect the Sarah Williams staying with sister Louisa Whittaker in 1871 may be a different Sarah to the one that is in the later census with John Bates. Examining Louisa, on some census she says she was born in Kiddermore Green, Staffs. So this could be her in the 1861 census, with her sister Sarah...
1861: RG09 Piece:1980 Folio:84 Page:8 (crown copyright, care of the TNA)
Kiddermore Green, Brewood
TURNER, James, head, 65, Locksmith Almsman, Brewood Staffordshire
TURNER, Ann, wife, 50, Locksmiths Wife, Blymhill Staffordshire
WILLIAMS, Louisa, stepdaughter, 9, Brewood Staffordshire
TURNER, Sarah, daughter, 4, Brewood Staffordshire

There is also a possible marriage between a Sarah Turner and Thomas Beard in 1873, (Penkridge reg district.)

Marriages Sep 1873 Penkridge 6b 655
BEARD Thomas
Green Mary
Shrigley David
Tumer Sarah
TUMES Sarah
TURNER Sarah

A Thomas Beard and Sarah (born abt 1856 Brewood) can be found in the 1881 to 1911 census. Of course, can't be sure about any of this without the marriage details. There is another Sarah Williams, born abt 1856 in Brewood, daughter of James and Hannah.

1861: Class: RG9; Piece: 1980; Folio: 87; Page: 13 (crown copyright, care of the TNA)

There are 2 Louisa Williams born same quarter March 1852, same place registered Penkridge (reg district Brewood)
Marriage Ann Williams m James Turner Penkridge June 1855

[valg]

WEll is seems the only mention so far of a middle name Patrick for John is on Adams Baptism, Adams birth cert states Just John and census states just John, so as there does not appear to be a birth on freebmd or Staffordshire bmd for a John Patrick or Patrick John looks like we are looking for a birth/baptism marriage as John Bates, my Grandad was born Percy Johnson but the middle name Francis appeared later inc his marriage cert, but his childrens birth cert notes Just Percy, my cousin told me she thought that he took Francis as a baptism name, he was catholic, could this be where the Patrick comes from?

[valg]

In the 1871 census in Rugeley there is a John Bates b1855 . Can only look at the index but I think with parents William b1821and Ellen b1818 and brothers Henry, Timothy and Adam. Might be worth looking at.

I can see a marriage with a Willaim Bates and an Ellen Morley burt not till 1853 in Lichfield reg district.

And a christening of Joannes Bate 24 Feb 1856, Joseph and Ethelreda, Rugely . Parents Guglielmi (William) Bate and Helenae Morley Bate. from family search.

A birth of a John Bates in Lichfield reg dist Jun 1855

But no mention of Patrick anywhere so may not be yours.

I also looked at this family, this John can be found with a wife Isabella and 3 sons on the 1891 census, his father William is living with them.
RG12 PC 2219 fol 65 Pg 17
I cant find a marriage that fits but as Isabella was born Glasgow they may have married in Scotland, I cant find Isabella or the sons in 1901 can someone else have a look, I may just have "OLDTIMERS": today.
John on the 1901 census, with the middle initial P, with Sarah and the children.
Is it possible that this is the same John? Did Isabella leave with the children???

[valg]

There is a marriage for a John Bates 1888 Stoke T and one of the spouses listed is a Isabella Amison.

[valg]

Re checking births John Bates Staffordshire 1850-1857 there is only one that comes under Rugely Reg district and that is the John Bates-June 1855-Lichfield-6b-328

[kev1965]

hi,valg i think that he was a catholic so this is probably where the patrick in john patrick bates...kev

[valg]

hi,valg i think that he was a catholic so this is probably where the patrick in john patrick bates...kev

That makes sense, Kev do you have a death cert for John, I have looked at freebmd 1901-1911 Staffordshire and can't find a death for Walsall, a death cert would perhaps give you a better indication of his age.