Worcestershire Workhouses

[Lottie]

Greetings

I am unable to locate my 3 x Gt Grandmother's Death in GRO- in 1901 she was living in Kidderminster a Widow aged 69years, Living on Parish Relief!

Its possible she may have been transferred to the Kidderminster Workhouse - can anyone pse tell me what records for WOR Workhouses are available - partic, Kidderminster and Upton upon Severn.
Margaret NASH was born and lived all her life in Kidderminster - but the only Death in the GRO Index, that fits her - took place at Upton upon Severn.
Is it likely a Kidderminster resident would be transferred to Upton Workhouse.
Her siblings had all pre - deceased her, son and family moved to Selly Oak, and there is no known family connection to Upton upon Severn.

tia

Lottie

|banghead|

[Peter Goodey]

Records would be at Worcs Records Office.

http://users.ox.ac.uk/~peter/workhouse/ contains a brief note of what's available. I had a quick look at A2A but couldn't spot anything which means either that Worcs RO haven't catalogued workhouse records on A2A or simply that I didn't look hard enough :D .

Wouldn't it involve a lot less messing around simply to order the death certificate that you spotted and then follow up in the workhouse records if you felt the need?

[Lottie]

Peter
Appreciate your suggestion, but a copy of Death Cert . will tell me no more ( except informant's name , and location of Death) than is in the Index.

I wish to confirm that it is my Margaret NASH,( nee Roebuck ), born Kidderminster 1832 and Widow of Alfred Arthur NASH, and the reason she was in Upton upon Severn in 1907!

That entry could be another Margaret NASH, of same age!

Lottie

[jeeb]

Hi Lottie,
I looked at the entry for Margaret Nash in Kidderminster 1901 census. The age of the lady in question (on parish relief) is infact only aged 60 and born in 1841. A tick has been added to all entries which makes her age appear as 69 as it touches the '0' of 60. I don't know if this makes a difference to your research as it may now not be your Great Grandmother.
With regards Jeremy.

[jeeb]

Hi Lottie,
I looked again at the 1901 census for Margaret Nash and although it still looks to me like her age is given as 60, she is living in Mill Street, same street as 1891, so it is likely to be the same Margaret. She did not however spend all her life in Kidderminster as she appears on the 1861 census as a lodger living in Aston, she is aged 27 a widow and has a son Alfred aged 6 with her. Kidderminster is given as her birth place. If you want more details please ask.
With regards to Margaret being in Upton on Severn, I think it unlikely. There is a marriage of a Margaret Nash in 1866 recorded at Upton on Severn, so it would appear the name was in that area earlier. As I'm sure you are already aware 'Nash is a common surname in Worcs. and the Midlands.
Regards Jeremy.

[Lottie]

Jeremy

Thank you for your research. Mill Street entry in 1901 Census is indeed my GtGt Grandmother born Kidderminster 1834., making her 67 in 1901 ( I have a copy of the original page , from the census ) .

Margaret did not remarry - I had already discounted that 1866 Marriage, as besides the 1861 Census of WAR where she is found in Aston with her sister & brother in Law , she appears with Alfred Arthur also in 1871 Census, and on her own in 1881/1891/1901. There are also Parish Records indicating she received Parish Relief in both 1883 and 1887.

I did order the Death Certificate , and found that Margaret died in Powick Asylum in 1907. The Certificate did say 'of Kidderminster' unfortunately there is 100year closure on the Asylum records , so I am unable to locate her place of burial! Having ruled out all Churchyards in Kiddeminster and also that of Powick, where many of the former Inmates of the Asylum were buried.

Yes I am aware of how prolific the name of NASH is in Worcestershire - I have a choice of 4 possible John NASH ( my 3Xgt Grandfather )Baptisms in Worcester- that would make him of full age in 1820 when he married in Claines, ( before Father's name was included in the Marriage Records ) a problem I doubt I will ever solve. John Nash died in Feb 1840, before the more informative census were taken, 2 of John's youngest children were in the Worcester Workhouse in 1851 census, and from there have totally vanished.!!

again thanks for your efforts
Lottie
New Zealand

[jeeb]

Lottie,
I wonder why Margaret Nash was taken to Powick, there were certainly closer asylums to Kidderminster than Powick. I was not suggesting Margaret remarried in 1866, I had already found her as a widow on 71/91 censuses, I was pointing out the name Nash was in Upton on Severn earlier. I do find it strange Powick came under Upton reg. district. It is correct, I have checked. I am pleased you managed to find Margaret though.
If John Nash died in Feb 1840, do you know his burial place, surely it will give his age and maybe eliminate some of the 4 candidates, unless they were all born the same year that is.
Jeremy.

[Lottie]

Jeremy

Powick Asylum , was for the insane - and apparently, most of the Workhouse Unions sent inmates so classified there.
I have this info. from a more knowledgable researcher than myself, and it was on their advice I took the plunge and purchased the Death Cert.
Margaret Nash, suffered from Senile Dementia , obviously Kidderminster Workhouse, couldn't not cope !!

The knowledgeable friend mentioned above , is at present attempting to locate Burial place for both John and his wife Sarah , which may or may not help narrow down the search. Death Cert. age doesn't assist. as is unclear ( looks like 52 meaning - he could have been born bet 1788 - 1799 !!! ) The informants name is not known aspart of family, but as their youngest child, was only months old , possibly a neighbour, did the informing ) Or I might have the wrong Certificate |blush|

Lottie

[jeeb]

Hi Lottie,
I know quite a lot about Powick Asylum, I live about 6 miles away from it, or at least where it was, it closed in 1996. It is true it took the insane but also people of varying degrees of sanity were patients too. My own Gt Gt Grandmother was a patient there, she suffered from cancer and a friends father was also a short term patient in the 1950's, he merely suffered from bouts of depression. Sadly it had and still has locally in some cases a stigma attached to it as 'The Nut House'
Personally I have done genealogical research for 30 years, tracing many families both for myself and friends back several hundred years. I thought as your family was local I might have been some help!
Regards Jeremy.

[Lottie]

Jeremy

Thanks for the extra information about Powick Asylum - the stigma seems to get attached to most Instutions for Insane - or handicapped, any where in the World !!
I have been researching NASH for about 25 yrs, but have been stymied several times by lack of records - and the quanitity of people in WOR bearing that name ! Hopefully I will locate John's Baptism one day.

One of the problems in researching this Branch of my tree, is that at lot of family lore is mixed with fact - or a tinge of fact - which has sent me off on wild goose chases !!
I have only recently located Margaret NASH's death having been searching GRO for a Kidderminster event , for a long time !

A friend was told by WRO , that there are papers ( not able to be released ) describing the refurbishment of the Powick Asylem Burial Ground, mixed with other Asylum Records - apparently will not be avialable until c 1910 - if then, as at present only information pre 1899, is available.

Again thanks for your help

Helen ( nee Nash ) AKA Lottie
New Zealand

[jeeb]

Hi Lottie,
I am not sure if you or your 'knowledgable friend' are aware but about 15 years ago I began compiling the Worcestershire Burial Index 1660 -1840. I indexed most Worcestershire parishes north, east and west of Worcester city and including some city parishes. Claines and Kidderminster included. About 5 years ago I handed all my work over to the Birmingham and Midland Society for Genealogy and Heraldry (BMSGH) who have done a great deal more work on it since. It may well be worth contacting them to see if they can locate John and Sarah Nash buried.
Jeremy.

[Lottie]

Jeremy

I didn't know you were the person who compiled it - but have accessed the BMSGH Burial Index - which is now available on CD in the National Burial Index.

Investigation has proved that the Cerificate I have for John ( 1840) is not him - but there is a possible burial at Claines in 1837 which is roughly the correct age - possibly means that Harriet was not born posthumously in November 1839 - but had another father !!
Full details are being checked !

Family Lore had recorded that Harriet was born either just before or just after her father died !! ( Cert has now been ordered :-))

Sarah died in 1841 - recorded Dec ¼ - have not been able to locate a burial in NBI , for her - definately not Claines , or therefore St George's !! The family were living in York Place, Whitstones in 1841 census, the same address as that given when Sarah died.
I gather there are several possiblities of locations for her burial, the 2 most likely St Oswald's and a Burial ground at Tallow Hill, are being checked.

Actually Jeremy you have done me a favour - by encouraging me to take John NASH out of the too hard basket and have another look. Because I now find from the age at death, that neither would have been of Full Age in 1820, but only 19 yrs, born 1801/02. Have located Baptisms that fit, for both - but they will have to be investigated.
Regards

Lottie

[jeeb]

Hi Helen,
It is possible Sarah could have been buried at Tallow Hill Cemetery in 1841 but it was the other side of town from Tything of Whitstones and I don't think it was a huge cemetery, it closed about 1895 I think and is now a car park.
There is one Nash family, William (Head) age 48 born Claines living in Tything of Whitstones in 1851 but not in York Place. Also there is Ann age 50 wid. born Dodderhill and Elizabeth 19 servant born Worcester living there at other addresses. If you think any of these are relevant and want more details let me know. I'm afraid I don't have enough details of the people you are searching for to know if I'm on the right tracks!
Cheers Jeremy.

[Lottie]

Jeremy

Thanks for the extra info. I own both a Transcript and Scans of the original pages for the 1851 - also have 1841 and 1861/71 scanned onto CD.

The ones of the offspring of John and Sarah ( nee Williams) I am missing from 1851 are Elizabeth ( Born March 1821) and Walter Born April 1826 - Elizabeth is also missing in 1841 - leastwise I haven't located her yet!
The remainder in 1851 were either living in Kidderminster or residing at the Worcester Workhouse !
Lottie
New Zealand

[jeeb]

Hi Lottie,
I must be missing something here! Harriet Nash the daughter of John and Sarah was Baptised 26th October 1829 at Claines. Harriet Nash who is on the 1851 census at Worcester workhouse is only 11 (10 year age gap!) Did John and Sarah have another Harriet or if as you now suspect John died in 1837 at Claines, Harriet in workhouse can't be his daughter surely? Am I correct in assuming Alfred Arthur Nash bap 11 Aug 1833 is the eventual husband of Margaret who dies at Powick Asylum? Hope you don't mind my taking an interest in your research.
Jeremy

[Lottie]

Jeremy

No, I don't mind at all , your taking an interest in the NASH enigma !!
John and Sarah had 3 Harriets ( at least Sarah did ) the parentage of the 3rd is in doubt.
Firstly family lore states Harriet was born either just before or just after John died ! a slight exaggeration me thinks - 1837-1839 !! Therefore that is why I thought the Death Mar ¼1840 ,was my John's - I was wrong, the Cert. Copy proves it wasn't John NASH Bootmaker, but a Blacksmith aged 53 or 83 on Cert, NBI says 73 !!!

The Harriet's were - Bapt Claines 26 November 1829 Buried April 1831

" " July 1832 " July 1835
Regsitered Dec ¼ 1839 +

That's the one in the Workhouse on 1851 Census !!
There were also 2 Alfreds 1. Bapt Aug. 1828 Buried November 1828
and as you have rightly guessed Alfred Arthur Bapt 11 August 1833 , husband to Margaret Roebuck is my 2X Gt Grandfather !!

Just to further muddy the water, Alfred Arthur and Margaret ,had a daughter Harriet born November 1851 buried Feb 1852,, but in Kidderminster !!

I suspect all the children were placed in Worcester Workhouse, on Sarah's Death in 1841 - except possibly Elizabeth ( 1821) and Walter (1824) .

its hard to enough to sort NASHes in WOR , without losing them also !

There are in the NBI death of a Charles in 1852 at St Oswald's one in Droitwich of a Walter in 1853 , my friend is checking these entries - for details , also the ages given. Walter's is the most possible, but I wonder why he didn't appear in 1851 Census !! Also -30 Mar 1837 Elizabeth Ann NASH 16 Worcs Claines, St John the Baptist
but she was only Baptised Elizabeth - ( no Ann )

[jeeb]

Hi Helen (Lottie)
I am not sure where you have obtained your information from but I think there are a few errors which may or may not please you! The following Baptisms are in Claines and are for children of John and Sarah Nash.
Elizabeth Ann 28 Mar 1821
John 25 Dec 1822 bur 2 Jan 1823
William 25 Dec 1822 bur 2 Jan 1823
John 20 Jan 1824
Walter 8 Apr 1826
Alfred 4 Aug 1828 bur 9 Nov 1828
Harriet 26 Oct 1829
Alfred Arthur 11 Aug 1833
Charles 23 Dec 1834

Please note:-
1)Elizabeth ANN bap. 1821, so will most likely be child aged 16 bur in 1837, that clears her up
2) Harriet Bap. Claines 29 July 1832 is the dau of James and Maria Nash NOT
John and Sarah.

Do you have a Harriet aged 2 with Sarah on the 1841 census? Otherwise the ages of the Nash children in the Worcester Workhouse do not tie up with the ages of John and Sarah's children.
Jeremy.

[Lottie]

Jeremy

I have just pulled out my Transcript of St John the Baptist, Claines - Records
( This taken from the LDS Film of P R's , 1994 )
and find -
Elizabeth Ann NASH 28 March 1821 Baptised - I hadn't copied the Ann into my database -
NB.looks as though John and dau. Elizabeth may have died within a week of each other -

John born 1824 died Jan. 1828 Buried at Claines
The Harriet born 1832 died 1834 dau. of James and Maria NASH , I have recorded. but why I inserted the info. in my database I cannot tell you. *
A senior moment I suppose :-)

I extracted this family,at the same time, James was a forename used frequently in later generations of NASH Family - I was hopeful I may find a link bet. James and John!
John and Sarah's Harriet Bapt 26 October 1829 - died 10th July 1835 aged 5 years

In 1841 Census Family appeared as this -
York Place, Whitstones
Sarah NASH W F 40yrs Gloveress Born in County
Walter Son U 15 "
Alfred " U 10 "
Charles " U 6 "
Harriet dau U 2 "

Alfred would have been only 8 years in 1841 - Harriet born Dec ¼ 1839 would have only been 18mths ( but expect enumerator applied rounding - but went the wrong way!)
Harriet is listed as age 11 and Charles as age 14 in 1851 Census..but Charles should have been 16 by 1851.

I don't know it is Charles son of Johnerations of NASH Family - I was hopeful I may find a link bet. James and John!
John and Sarah's Harriet Bapt 26 October 1829 - died 10th July 1835 aged 5 years

In 1841 Census Family appeared as this -
York Place, Whitstones
Sarah NASH W F 40yrs Gloveress Born in County
Walter Son U 15 "
Alfred " U 10 "
Charles " U 6 "
Harriet dau U 2 "

Alfred would have been only 8 years in 1841 - Harriet born Dec ¼ 1839 would have only been 18mths ( but expect enumerator applied rounding - but went the wrong way!)
Harriet is listed as age 11 and Charles as age 14 in 1851 Census..but Charles should have been 16 by 1851.

I don't know it is Charles son of John and Sarah , but cannot find another in 1851 born 1834 - and as Sarah died in Dec 1841, its possible all the younger children went to the Workhouse.
But there are no Workhouse Records surviving to support that theory!

I know now why they say - "don't rely on transcripts" - so easy to make an error, even making your own database !:o

Helen

[jeeb]

Hi Helen,
Glad we seem to have sorted out the Harriets. Not too sure about the Charles but 2 years on a census is often neither here nor there. Pleased I made you re examine your notes, it surprising how often we miss things right under our noses isn't it? I am referring to Elizabeth Ann in this instance. Is there anything you would like me to check for you in Worcester R O when I next go? Jeremy

[Lottie]

Jeremy
Am really sorted now, except friend 'Gus' has checked the Claines Burials, Elizabeth Ann and John correct he also found one I hadn't, Sarah NASH buried Dec 1841 - is my Sarah :
Now have been able to narrow the Birth possiblities for John and Sarah.
Burial John Nash born 1824 in 1828 is Not Sarah and John's son- so we have a stray John missing , like Walter not on 1851. John also not with family in 1841.
Pretty sure Burial at St Andrew's Droitwich ( From Union) of Walter NASH 1853 , is Walter - there is a Charles buried at St Oswald's in 1852 which could be Charles, though age in NBI doesn't fit.
Gus is checking that !!
So its what happened to John and what to Harriet ( and possibly Charles) that remains unsolved.Will trawl 1841 Census, sometime in future -( have a copy on Cd from Archive CD Books (http://www.parishchest.com/en-gb/dept_2430.html).


Thanks for your offer of research at WRO - but at this stage I will decline-
Will continue this off-forum as think we have now concluded the Workhouse theme !:)
Regards

Helen

[Laurane]

but not from Worcs....also looking for info on burials of inmates of Powick. My husband's great, great aunt was in Powick on 1891 census. She "lost her reason" according to her sister before 1868 and was basket making in 1891. She lived with her mother until 1874 then I assume she was moved into Powick. Was there a burial place for patients or did remaining family bury them?

Her name was Sarah GAUDEN and she was single....the rest of the family moved to USA in 1868, so there is nobody to research her in UK. Any suggestions welcomed...thx.

[Lottie]

Laurane

There are records for Powick Asylum , up until the time you give. They are held at Worcestershire Record Office.

Details of how to contact them are available on this site .

http://worcestershire.whub.org.uk/home/wccindex/wcc-records.htm

Lottie
New Zealand