befuddled!

[furball]

Hi

I've just joined after finding that my feeble attempts at genealogy are coming up with absolutely nil. I have the barest skeleton of details about one relative, a soldier who died in the Second World War. I have no family to ask, but do remember being told one or two bits of information about the soldier (who was my grandfather), and I know roughly where parents lived and were married. Really I want to ask where on earth do I start?! Also, are any living relatives automatically informed if I request various documents? I only say this as I cannot become re-involved with certain situations, but am finding that I want to find a sense of connectedness further back along the line. I remember being told there were links to Scottish farmers and to Gladstone, but no details about them, and father's genealogy wasn't looked into. Would much appreciate any advice.

PS I've added the one photo I have of my grandfather, Bob (Smith, I think) who came from Sunderland, died at Dunkirk, incase anyone recognises him or can tell me which regiment he could have been in.

Many thanks, Cat

[Lindad]

Hi Cat

If I were you, I'd take a look at the Commonwealth War Graves site http://www.cwgc.org/cwgcinternet/search.aspx You can search for your missing WW2 relative by name. You don't necessarily need to know which service he was in.

[furball]

Hi Lindad

Thanks for such a quick response and for the link. I hadn't been able to find anything on there. With it being surname of 'Smith' too, it's proving more difficult!

[Lindad]

Ah yes! It does help if the name that you are looking for is a little more unusual. Having said that, I'm trying to find a man called Walter Hastings Conbour Hungerford... and I can't find him either!

[furball]

That's a really cool name ... definitely one you'd think it would be easy to find!

[furball]

reattaching correct-sized pic

[Guy Etchells]

The Army Roll of Honour CD shows 3 Robert Smiths born in Sunderland the first of who is -

Branch at Death - Infantry
Regiment - The Cameronians (Scottish Rifles)
Surname - SMITH
Christian Name - Robert
Rank - Rifleman
Number - 3240715
Born - Sunderland
Residence - Sunderland
date Died - 27/05/40
Theatre of War - France and Belgium Campaign 1939/40

This date ties in with Dunkirk May/June 1940
The Commonweath War Graves website shows

Name: SMITH, ROBERTmessage=The Army Roll of Honour CD shows 3 Robert Smiths born in Sunderland the first of who is -

Branch at Death - Infantry
Regiment - The Cameronians (Scottish Rifles)
Surname - SMITH
Christian Name - Robert
Rank - Rifleman
Number - 3240715
Born - Sunderland
Residence - Sunderland
date Died - 27/05/40
Theatre of War - France and Belgium Campaign 1939/40

This date ties in with Dunkirk May/June 1940
The Commonweath War Graves website shows

Name: SMITH, ROBERT
Initials: R
Nationality: United Kingdom
Rank: Rifleman
Regiment: Cameronians (Scottish Rifles)
Unit Text: 2nd Bn.
Age: 32
Date of Death: between 27/05/1940 and 04/06/1940
Service No: 3240715
Additional information: Husband of Elizabeth M. Smith, of Millfield, Sunderland, Co. Durham.
Casualty Type: Commonwealth War Dead
Grave/Memorial Reference: IV. BB. 15.
Cemetery: OOSTTAVERNE WOOD CEMETERY

Hope this rings a few bells
Cheers
Guy

[Rod Neep]

Hi

I've just joined after finding that my feeble attempts at genealogy are coming up with absolutely nil. I have the barest skeleton of details about one relative, a soldier who died in the Second World War. I have no family to ask, but do remember being told one or two bits of information about the soldier (who was my grandfather), and I know roughly where parents lived and were married. Really I want to ask where on earth do I start?! Also, are any living relatives automatically informed if I request various documents? I only say this as I cannot become re-involved with certain situations, but am finding that I want to find a sense of connectedness further back along the line. I remember being told there were links to Scottish farmers and to Gladstone, but no details about them, and father's genealogy wasn't looked into. Would much appreciate any advice.

PS I've added the one photo I have of my grandfather, Bob (Smith, I think) who came from Sunderland, died at Dunkirk, incase anyone recognises him or can tell me which regiment he could have been in.

Many thanks, Cat
First, nobody in the family needs to know you are researching this if you don't tell them. None will be contacted, except by you.

You need a strategy. And yes, the CWGC site is a good place to begin, even though it does contain a lot of people named Robert SMITH.

What facts do we know?
His name was Robert ... probably SMITH (Your parents' marriage certificate, and your father's birth certificate, of which you can obtain copies, will state that clearly).
He died at Dunkirk
Therefore he died in 1940
He was your grandfather. Therefore he had children, therefore it is likely that he was over 21 when he died.
&nn in.

Many thanks, Cat[/QUOTE]
First, nobody in the family needs to know you are researching this if you don't tell them. None will be contacted, except by you.

You need a strategy. And yes, the CWGC site is a good place to begin, even though it does contain a lot of people named Robert SMITH.

What facts do we know?
His name was Robert ... probably SMITH (Your parents' marriage certificate, and your father's birth certificate, of which you can obtain copies, will state that clearly).
He died at Dunkirk
Therefore he died in 1940
He was your grandfather. Therefore he had children, therefore it is likely that he was over 21 when he died.


First, nobody in the family needs to know you are researching this if you don't tell them. None will be contacted, except by you.



Those facts alone will enable you to narrow down the CWGC site search considerably. (i.e. you can ignore those with graves in the far east, etc. and you can probably rule out those who were in the air force)

Make a list of all that are possibly your Robert SMITH. With all their details

Now, how do we narrow those results down further?

You say that you know where he (or was it your father's) marriage took place. (You don't make that clear). Tell us! Where did they live? That will help narrow down the right one from your list of Robert SMITHs. We even might be able to find him in a pre-war directory.

And finally, at least for the moment, ignore family rumours and stories that are outside his lifetime. There may be elements of truth in them, but they are not going to help you, and could indeed cloud the issue.

Rod

[furball]

Hi Guy, I'm well I don't quite know how to describe it, but the 3rd Robert is him, as that's my nana's name, and where they lived - I hadn't been able to remember where they lived, but have now remembered my great-gran went to the Salvation Army at Millfield, and my mother played the piano for them etc. Thanks so much for taking the time to find this out and to post. I'm so glad to have a real concrete lead to be able to follow to find out more about him and previous ancestors also. Thanks SO much. Means a great deal to me. Big thanks, Cat

[furball]

Hi Rod, thank you to you also. I'm so glad to know that I can research freely without worrying about anything else. Really appreciate Guy finding a real concrete lead - I'll be able to find out grandad's details, plus I now have the chance to honour what he did in my own way. Great to be able now to trace back also.

I didn't know I could obtain my parents' birth and marriage certificates, especially without them needing to know .... that's really good. Can I ask where I need to contact in order to have a copy of the certificates, my grandad's and nana's too? Grandad lived in Sunderland; his daughter/my mother moved away after a long time there. Father's side of family came from Derby; he was born there (surname Topliss!). My grandparents and parents all married in Sunderland I think. What a good reminder about not believing rumours: I'm really looking forward to finding out real things about my grandad. Thanks, Cat

[Geoffers]

I didn't know I could obtain my parents' birth and marriage certificates, especially without them needing to know .... that's really good. Can I ask where I need to contact in order to have a copy of the certificates, my grandad's and nana's too?
Since 1837, all registered births, marriages and deaths in England and Wales have been reported to the General Register Office (GRO). The GRO produces an index to these events. The index can be seen at the Family Records Centre (FRC) in London. It has also been copied onto fiches and can be seen at many Local Studies Centres/County Records Offices. There is a project to put at least part of the GRO index online, free; it is not complete but a useful resource.
http://freebmd.rootsweb.com/cgi/search.pl

There is a pay-per-view website 1837 online which is complete.

If you manage to find a reference (you need to note down the details exactly as recorded), thern you can apply for a copy of the certificate via the GRO website
http://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/

Certificates can also be ordered via local Registrars' Offices and staff are often very helpful.

Geoffers
Charlbury, Oxfordshire

[furball]

Thanks Geoffers for the links. I think a well-spent £5 could be the place to start! Not normally thick, but am puzzled with the freebmd site! I put in my nana's name to try to find birth record and the only exact name near to it was wrong birth month, and there's no details attached to any of the files, so, with a name like Robert Smith for my grandad, there's loads of them but no details, so can't be sure which is him. Is this just because the site is still uploading things, or does it mean contacting every person linked with each entry to ask them the details? Thanks, Cat

[Geoffers]

Thanks Geoffers for the links. I think a well-spent £5 could be the place to start! Not normally thick, but am puzzled with the freebmd site! I put in my nana's name to try to find birth record and the only exact name near to it was wrong birth month, and there's no details attached to any of the files,
The GRO index is/was produced quarterly. So, events registered in January, February and March appear under March, those for April, May and June appear under June, etc.

The index is just that, it isn't a complete transcript of BMD, for full details you have to apply for a certificate. You have my sympathies in searching for Smith, this can be a nightmare. You do need to do as much groundwork as possible prior to checking the index, in order to narrow down the possible matches. I think that most people who have been researching family history for any length of time have over the years ordered a wrong certificate. I'm afraid it's one of the hazards. I would suggest that if you aren't too sure that you've found the correct entry in the GRO index, it can often be better to apply for a certificate via the Local Registrar. In my experience, if you provide as much detail as possible, many have gone out of their way to be helpful.

Geoffers
Charlbury, Oxfordshire

[furball]

Hi Geoffers, thanks for your helpful message. Know what you mean about Smith! Still amazed that Guy found the right record straightaway; and tonight I'd nearly used up all of £5 on the 1837 site when found the only entry with correct two marriage names and area and time-period, so ordered the certificate earlier on; fingers crossed it's the right one! It was the other site, the freebmd, that I realised didn't yet have recent enough records entered, but it will be so useful when I get back a couple of generations. Glad about reminder to check up as much as possible first. Hope I'm not being a bother in asking yet more, but am unsure which Local Registrar - details I have of grandad detail his wife/my nana as being of Millfield, Sunderland, so would I apply to a local registrar there, or is there a general Sunderland one, as there's 3 different Millfield areas, or is it best to just contact each one? Thanks, Cat

[Geoffers]

Hope I'm not being a bother in asking yet more, but am unsure which Local Registrar - details I have of grandad detail his wife/my nana as being of Millfield, Sunderland, so would I apply to a local registrar there, or is there a general Sunderland one, as there's 3 different Millfield areas, or is it best to just contact each one? Thanks, Cat
No bother at all, this excellent forum is for asking questions and I'm sure everyone is only too glad to try and help.

There is a good book with lots of names and addresses in to aid research and is well worth dropping hints to family about what an excellent small present it would make for say, Christmas?? The book is "Family and Local History Handbook (http://www.parishchest.com/en-gb/dept_254.html)" publ by The Genealogical Services Directory
It lists museums,record offices, societies, libraries and has several interesting articles.

One of the lists it contains is of Registrars of BMD.

For Sunderland, the Registrar is listed at:

Town Hall & Civic Centre
PO Box 108
Sunderland
SR2 7DN

Tel. 0191 553 1760

My copy of the handbook is last year's (I must start dropping hints myself) and so it might be wise to give them a bell just to confirm the postal address.

Geoffers
Charlbury, Oxfordshire

[furball]

Hi Geoffers, thanks for your message. Yes, am really glad I found the forum - so helpful. Thanks for the book information and link, and a big thank you for the Sunderland link too .... will be really useful to contact them. Hope you get your updated book ... definitely lots of big hint-dropping due! Thanks, Cat

[Guy Etchells]

The fact that I could home in on the right record straight away displays the advantage of having a variety of sources for the same event.

The CWGC website gave a large number of hits but limited search facilities. The cd Army Roll of Honour 1939-45 allowed a wider choice of searches allowing me to be more precise with my search.

Sometimes it is good to be able to specify particular details at other times you get more results by specifying less.
Take the 1901 I find it is better to start searching with minimal information and add more if it returns too many results.

As most people who know me know I prefer books to all other formats but cds hold far greater potential when it comes to searching and manipulating the information.
Cheers
Guy

[furball]

Hi Guy, interesting to read your message. I'll remember pointers and references as research progresses. Beginning to see how big and fascinating a process researching ancestors is. Yes, there were about 500 results when I'd searched myself on CWGC, so I was very glad of your research. Still amazed found him, considering the surname's Smith! Many thanks again. Regards, Cat

[Lesley Robertson]

Hi Guy, interesting to read your message. I'll remember pointers and references as research progresses. Beginning to see how big and fascinating a process researching ancestors is. Yes, there were about 500 results when I'd searched myself on CWGC, so I was very glad of your research. Still amazed found him, considering the surname's Smith! Many thanks again. Regards, CatIf I can add something to all the excellent advice you've been given, when you have some time, take a look at GENUKI here http://www.genuki.org.uk/. There's a good Beginner's Guide plus a lot of info on different areas, different sorts of information, etc.

Other than that, welcome to the addiction that is family history!

[furball]

Hi Lesley, thanks for your message and link. That sounds a good site to get bookmarked! Thank you also for your welcome. I'm so glad I found the site and such helpful people. Ancestry's such a huge area that it's great to be able to refer to the forum and to ask questions .... maybe even answer some one day! Regards, Cat