Another Cork Couple

[DocDAve]

I will add my name to the masses of other folk looking for Irish origins.

I don’t expect any short cuts and I know it won’t be easy.

I have descendants John Cronin and Ann Dowse, both born in Cork according to the 1851 English Census ( Southwark St Saviour).
I have applied for some research to be done to see if any Catholic baptisms for their four children will indicate if they were Catholic.
Their first recorded child was Johanna Cronin born 7 February 1840 ( BMD index) and the parents dates of birth (best guess from Census 1841-1861 and death cert for her 1867) are John 1809 and Ann 1817-19. So in 1837 he was 28 and she, 18.
Their marriage is the key I suppose – nothing on Ancestry, and I have checked the Irish Family History Foundation site and invested a few Euros ! Only one entry for Anne Dowse, born in Dublin but I haven’t “bought” that record as it will get me nowhere. The wonderful irishgenealogy.ie site and the familysearch.org new beta sites similarly barren as far as I can see.
If they were married in Ireland before coming over, please can seasoned pioneers guide me in the right direction ; and if they were married in London/UK , why aren’t there any clues on Ancestry – Pallots/ St Saviour Union Parish records ? And how do I find out where they were married ?

[Elwyn Soutter]

Stat records of births in Ireland only started in 1864. Prior to that you are essentiually dependant on church records. There is no central database. Some records have been copied and put on line, some are in the process of being added, some churches have declined to add their records and some churches records have been lost (or were never kept in the first place). So though you can search some data on-line it is not the complete picture.

To have any chance of accurately identifying your relatives you need to know their religion and townland. And then focus on the records in that place. Traditionally a marriage would have been in the wife’s parish church. So if your Cronin/Dowse ancestors came from Cork, then that seems likely the county to focus on. But they could have come from anywhere in the county, including the city of Cork. I note that whilst Cronin is a very common name in Cork in Griffiths Valuation, Dowse doesn’t feature at all suggesting there were very few Dowse families there in the mid 1800s.

You think your ancestors are RC. The attached link will tell you what RC parish records survive in Cork and where they are held:

www.
irishtimes.com/ancestor/browse/counties/rcmaps/

Usual sources for information of a person’s townland in Ireland are family bibles, wills, obituaries, gravestones, wills and poor law applications. If you can’t narrow the search a bit, and without a national database, it’s a bit of a needle in a haystack. Which, apart from the loss of the censuses, is the main reason why many people struggle with Irish research.

[Geoffers]

I have descendants John Cronin and Ann Dowse, both born in Cork according to the 1851 English Census ( Southwark St Saviour)...........the parents dates of birth (best guess from Census 1841-1861 and death cert for her 1867) are John 1809

Just on the offchance (and 'cos it's easy to check from the comfort of home) - You might look to see if there is an army service record for John CRONIN born about 1809 in or around Cork - service records are available on the pay-per-view site 'findmypast'.

If he did serve in the army, were the births of children registered and can they be found in the Regimental registers of births (1761-1924) or Army Chaplains returns of births (1796-1880)?

[DocDAve]

In my posting above I wrongly state that their first recorded child was Johanna - it was in fact Mary Cronin 1837 (probably Maria BMD Q4 1837 St Saviour). It may be that they did emigrate from Cork in 1836-7, or that they had children that died in infancy prior to Mary and came earlier.
Not knowing the townland looks grim news for the future research. I shall look for any Army record. "Fishing" for a Cronin-Dowse Cork marriage looks to be my longterm project. I've heard of the Mallow research centre - would this be a good idea ?

[AdeleE]

If I've found the correct Cronin family on the 1851 census at HO107/ Piece 1558/ Folio 578 / Page 23 in Southwark, St Saviour, there is a 30 year old unmarried nephew named James Copps in the household.

I think this nephew James Copps could possibly be the one found with his wife Catherine & children at RG10 Piece 595 Folio 70 Page 54 on the 1871 census in Southwark St Saviour. I haven't found them on the 1861 census yet. (Census Crown copyright in care of TNA)

This marriage index grouping looks promising:

March quarter 1852
Wandsworth
Vol 1d, page 511

Carpenter James
Copps James
Cronin Catherine
Cupps James
Lucy Margaret

[DocDAve]

Good morning,

The thread " Mr Copps of St Saviour missing" looks at James Copps, who I think will turn out to be John (Jno) Cronin's niece's husband to be.

An as yet unknown brother of John, it is thought, had a daughter Catherine ( Copps nee Cronin - marriage certificate ordered and on the way) born 1827 St SAviour ( from 1871 Census).

interesting that on the 1851 Census, the household name him as a nephew, when in fact they weren't married until 1852 ( Wandsworth) and he is not a blood relative but a "nephew-in-law)

[Kerrywood]

For anyone helping, this is the other thread (http://www.british-genealogy.com/forums/showthread.php?64784-Mr-Copps-of-St-Saviour-missing.) being referred to.

[DocDAve]

PLEASE NOTE , to anyone interested, the maiden name of Ann is not DOWSE it is DOWNS.

I based Dowse on a poorly-transcribed GRO birth certificate for daughter Johanna Cronin b. 1840. A b.cert for her older sister Maria Cronin clearly shows DOWNS.

[venusallstar]

the Irish goverment have a a new church records site, it is free to use and is very good, it has not all the records up yet but i know it has most of Cork, if you go to irish genealogy.ie, but make sure that it is the goverment sponsered one

[Elwyn Soutter]

Here's the site:

www.irishgenealogy.ie/index.html

[DocDAve]

The rest of Cork is apparently going to be added "in early 2011" and I anxiously wait with others to see if ancestors are found there.

" Start with what you know and work from there" - What is written in stone ? I am at a tricky stage, having set out from the 1851 Census with John Cronin (Cork, Ireland) and his wife Ann Downs (census says "ditto ditto") and I have recently got hold of their children's RC baptisms.

I am foxed - because the godparents to a son John, Thomas Downs and Mary O'Donnell - and I tentatively but with good reason take it that Ann Downs would choose a family-member to be a godparent - turn out to be from County Clare.

So where now - on the road to Cork I see a sign post for Clare !!! Not funny. Any comments from experts ? More info on request