1st Dragoon Guards

[steven belfast]

Hi all

i am trying to find out details about Edward Clulow 1st Dragoon Guards he is on the anglo boer website, any help would be much appreicated


Clulow Edward 4458 Private QSA (4). Awarded 10 years Penal Servitude. Regt. No. 4455 on E.C. Roll.
Source: QSA medal rolls

[Geoffers]

I believe that the QSA medal rolls are available on the pay-per-view site 'ancestry' - if that is the source for the information concerning penal servitude, it might be a first place to look.

This TNA research guide deals with Court Martial (http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/records/research-guides/army-courts-17th-20th.htm#16120) although access from your location will be difficult.

Do you have any knowledge of what happened to your chap or date the penalty was imposed?

[SueNSW]

It looks as though his 10 years penal servitude didn't stop his continuing service - there is WW1 medal index card for Edward Clulow - Pte 4455 who served with both 5th and 1st Dragoon Guards - and then with the Corps of Dragoons as D/19464

He "died" per Soldiers Died in the Great War and is here on CWGC

Name: CLULOW, EDWARD
Initials: E
Nationality: United Kingdom
Rank: Private
Regiment/Service: 5th Dragoon Guards (Princess Charlotte of Wales's)
Unit Text: "C" Sqdn.
Age: 36
Date of Death: 27/03/1918
Service No: D/19464
Additional information: Son of Mr. and Mrs. James Evitt Clulow, of Belfast; husband of Sarah Jane Clulow, of 52, Clementine St., Belfast. Served in the South African Campaign. A Reservist.
Casualty Type: Commonwealth War Dead
Grave/Memorial Reference: P. VII. F. 7A.
Cemetery: ST. SEVER CEMETERY EXTENSION, ROUEN

The Commonwealth War Graves Register states he died of wounds

He went to France on 16 September 1914 - entitling him to the 1914 Star award

Unfortunately no service records appear to have survived

Cheers
Sue

[SueNSW]

Due to your location you might want to try to contact Kevin Asplin - a military researcher who has done a lot of work on the Boer War to see if he can help

www.
britishmedals.us/index.html

Cheers
Sue

[steven belfast]

Sue

Many thanks for the reply, as a green horn at this i was thinking the same thing, if he was CM he would have been disqualified from future service?

It dosent look like his recrods survived, as i found his brother Thomas (my GGF) last week due to the free access on ancestry, on it was quite a lot, but thank you for taking the time to look and replying

[steven belfast]

Not as yet geoffers no dates or what t was for but the hunt continues, thank you for the reply and advice

[Geoffers]

Many thanks for the reply, as a green horn at this i was thinking the same thing, if he was CM he would have been disqualified from future service?

Not necessarily, one of my gt-gt-grandfathers was court-martialled twice in the RN, the second time he was dismissed the service - only to be later allowed to rejoin to see out time for pension (admittedly he didn't get sent down for 10 years). The CWGC site notes your chap as a reservist - presumably he was conscripted in WW1?

[SueNSW]

A reservist wouldn't have been 'conscripted' Geoffers - they accepted at the end of the selected period of "full time" regular service that they could be recalled for service under certain circumstances and effectively had an obligation to serve again if called upon. They were paid a 'retainer' for this - I think I have the amounts somewhere

Reservists were mobilised very quickly at the start of the war - as Edward Clulow's date of entry to theatre shows - 16th September 1914 - 1st Dragoon Guards were in India at the outbreak of war - so he couldn't join them but as the 5th were at Aldershot - he would presumably have had to get there

Cheers
Sue

[Geoffers]

A reservist wouldn't have been 'conscripted' Geoffers - they accepted at the end of the selected period of "full time" regular service that they could be recalled for service under certain circumstances and effectively had an obligation to serve again if called upon. They were paid a 'retainer' for this - I think I have the amounts somewhere

Yes, of course - no idea why I typed 'conscripted'.

Steven - do you know if the Belfast Telegraph or some other local newspaper may have reported the incident which led to his penal servitude?

I know that The Navy List records courts martial at the rear (although limtied to Warrant/Commissioned ranks); I don't know if the Army List has something similar - but it may be worth looking at a copy (some pay-per-view sites have some copies of the Army List).

If your chap's service record has not survived, the only things I can suggest to find details of the conviction is either a trip to Kew, or employing someone to check for you - or try the regimental museum

[Geoffers]

Further to my last, there is an online database relating to the 1st Dragoon Guards.

Starting at

www.
qdg.org.uk/pages/Museum-Information-69.php

There is a link through to

www.
cardiffcastlemuseum.org.uk/

Click on the 'Genealogy' link near the top

and then the link to 'Search Online Database'

There is an entry for your chap.

The bad news is that it will cost you £30 to find out what they hold. Perhaps it may be worth a 'phone call to ask if their records would be likely to include details of the offence (or what sort of detail is included in their records) and so make the expenditure worthwhile.

[SueNSW]

If his offence was presumably in some way linked to his service in South Africa I reckon an email to Kevin Asplin might be a good bet - not sure if he's tongue in cheek but he says he'll do research if you buy him a beer - or provide something towards his travel costs to Kew

He has done such a lot of research into that period he may already have come across him

Good Luck whatever you end up doing - you just have to promise to let us know just how naughty he was to get 10 years in the clink!!

Cheers
Sue

[steven belfast]

Thanks sue

I will keep you posted, curious to this 10 years thing as i was able to get him on the 1911 census of ireland, will drop the person you mentioned an email and see if he can shed any light on this

[ladysmith]

Steven - I can confirm that the Queen's South Africa Medal roll shows 4458 Pte. Edward Clulow 1st Dragoon Guards was entitled to the QSA with clasps Cape Colony, Orange Free State, South Africa 1901 & South Africa 1902. It is noted that he was awarded 10 years penal servitude and that another reference shows his number as 4455. Interestingly there is no indication that he forfeited his medal.

A court martial would not necessarily result in dismissal from the service. I have the papers of men who were court martialled more than once and to another who went on to be awarded the Distinguished Conduct Medal. However, a 10 year sentence indicates that his was a very serious case.

I've checked the FMP index and his papers do not appear to have survived. This may well be because they are with his court martial papers. I'm not familiar with these but can endorse the earlier suggestion to contact Kevin Asplin. If his papers survive Kevin will find them.

David

[steven belfast]

Steven - I can confirm that the Queen's South Africa Medal roll shows 4458 Pte. Edward Clulow 1st Dragoon Guards was entitled to the QSA with clasps Cape Colony, Orange Free State, South Africa 1901 & South Africa 1902. It is noted that he was awarded 10 years penal servitude and that another reference shows his number as 4455. Interestingly there is no indication that he forfeited his medal.

A court martial would not necessarily result in dismissal from the service. I have the papers of men who were court martialled more than once and to another who went on to be awarded the Distinguished Conduct Medal. However, a 10 year sentence indicates that his was a very serious case.

I've checked the FMP index and his papers do not appear to have survived. This may well be because they are with his court martial papers. I'm not familiar with these but can endorse the earlier suggestion to contact Kevin Asplin. If his papers survive Kevin will find them.

David


David

Thank you for the reply, i have sent kevin an email hopefully he can dig something out, are the medal roles available in the orginal form? is there somewere i can read up on the 4 actions you mention he would have got the clasps for, it is looking very likely his records did not survive the fire, so if i can get my hands on anything from his boer war service, ie medal rolls, batt dairys anything like that.

In those days did 10 years mean 10 years? as i can get him on the 1911 census in ireland, would love to find out what he got the 10 years for as you can imangine this has caused quite a stir in the family.

Would it be possible that all his papers were together in 1914 at the time of his re enlistment, his brothers (my great grandfathers) were all together he joined the south lancs in 1903 went to india came out and was re enlisted in 1914 and was wounded at the battle of Asine he was discharged on a full pension but sadly died in 1916, i have all his papers which thankfully survived.

[Geoffers]

Thank you for the reply, i have sent kevin an email hopefully he can dig something out, are the medal roles available in the orginal form?

As per message no.2 above.



is there somewere i can read up on the 4 actions you mention he would have got the clasps for

These weren't specific actions.

Go to the - angloboerwar.com - web-site.

Look across to the right under 'Most Popular' and click on 'Queen South African Medal', scroll down the page.


Did you try the museum?

[steven belfast]

As per message no.2 above.




These weren't specific actions.

Go to the - angloboerwar.com - web-site.

Look across to the right under 'Most Popular' and click on 'Queen South African Medal', scroll down the page.


Did you try the museum?

Foned the museum today and spoke to a lovely man, he told me he would have a look and see what they had and get back to me, no point in paying £30 if its something you already have was his words, but he didnt hold out much hope as a lot of there stuff was damaged as well, but heres hoping

[Geoffers]

Foned the museum today and spoke to a lovely man, he told me he would have a look and see what they had and get back to me, no point in paying £30 if its something you already have was his words, but he didnt hold out much hope as a lot of there stuff was damaged as well, but heres hoping

My fingers are crossed, let us know what he says.

[ladysmith]

David

Thank you for the reply, i have sent kevin an email hopefully he can dig something out, are the medal roles available in the orginal form? is there somewere i can read up on the 4 actions you mention he would have got the clasps for, it is looking very likely his records did not survive the fire, so if i can get my hands on anything from his boer war service, ie medal rolls, batt dairys anything like that.

In those days did 10 years mean 10 years? as i can get him on the 1911 census in ireland, would love to find out what he got the 10 years for as you can imangine this has caused quite a stir in the family.

Would it be possible that all his papers were together in 1914 at the time of his re enlistment, his brothers (my great grandfathers) were all together he joined the south lancs in 1903 went to india came out and was re enlisted in 1914 and was wounded at the battle of Asine he was discharged on a full pension but sadly died in 1916, i have all his papers which thankfully survived.

Steven - The medal rolls are available in original form at the National Archives in Kew in series WO100. Kevin could run off a copy of the relevant page for you.

The clasps he was awarded are the standard 'state and date' clasps for general service in those areas rather than specific battles. He could well have been involved in some of the many sharp actions and skirmishes not covered by a separate clasp especially as he was a cavalryman. By the end of 1900 the war had entered its guerilla phase and there were many small actions. Reading up on the regiment's actions, which is where the museum may be able to help, will give you an idea of where they served and the actions they were involved in.

His papers may well have been consolidated with his WW1 papers as this was quite common. I've checked the indexes on Ancestry and he's not listed in either the WW1 service papers (WO 363) or WW1 pension records (WO 364). They may have been destroyed in the Blitz but equally they may have been forwarded to another authority because of his court martial sentence. Again, Kevin will have a better idea of where they may be if they survive.

A court martial sentence wasn't necessarily served in full. I have the papers of men whose sentences were partly or wholly remitted and a couple whose medals were ordered to be forfeited only for the order to be rescinded.

David

[steven belfast]

wee bit further on with this, a friend of a friend done a wee bit of digging and he claims to have found some things relating to the 10 year sentance, he is emailing some stuff today he wouldnt tell me what it was for as it would ruin the surprise, will post what ever he as found in here as soon as i get it

[steven belfast]

Well found out today that Edward Clulow was sentanced to 10 years for the horriffic crime of sleeping at his post