CRABTREE, Thomas

[drowning]

While tracing all Crabtree's with connections to Ireland I found a Margaret Crabtree married Reverend Adam Hudson in Dublin. Rationally I thought Margaret may be connected to the Kildare Crabtree Family but no - alas I have found that Margaret was nee O'Flanagan. She did marry Thomas Crabtree in 1831 Tullamore County Offaly. Between 1831 and 1835 Thomas Crabtree died. Margaret married Adam Hudson in 1835. I can find no death information either in Ireland or England for Thomas. Further investigations showed that Thomas came fron Fearns in Lancashire which is near Burnley. In the 1827 Gores I found Thomas and his brother Richard both noted as Corn Millers. On the marriage Certificate to Margaret O'Flanagan he states his residence as Liverpool. If anyone has further information of births for Thomas and Margaret in England (I did find one in Colne but named the mother only) I would love to put this poor man to rest. The only Thomas and Richard I can find born in this area were Thomas 1812 and Richard 1814. The would seem mighty young to be running a Mill though, but who knows?
Thank you for any help.

[grisel]

Hi there

Thomas's (possible) death notice is in the Liverpool Mercury Sep 26 1834 (from British Library 19thC newspapers)
' On Wednesday last in Dublin much regretted Thomas Crabtree esq late of Bahla'
I don't know if Bahla is in Ireland. There is a Bala in N Wales. Or it could be perhaps the name of his house? Or somewhere near Liverpool?

The marriage in 1831 is there also (which is why I am guessing the death is also his) - but so far I haven't spotted anything else.

[Raffaele]

Google maps reports a Bahla (exact spelling) on the Indian border with Pakistan
Could there be a Military connection with his birth ?

[drowning]

You are completely wonderful on BG Forums. I cannot thank you enough for this information. I will try and trace Thomas. How does one look at the Liverpool Mercury September 1834 - is it on line please? If his wife Margaret married again in Dublin and Thomas died in Dublin I would assume that Bahla is in Dublin but will chase this up. Once more you have been a huge help in my Crabtree Research - only 22 more souls to knit together.
Best wishes


Hi there

Thomas's (possible) death notice is in the Liverpool Mercury Sep 26 1834 (from British Library 19thC newspapers)
' On Wednesday last in Dublin much regretted Thomas Crabtree esq late of Bahla'
I don't know if Bahla is in Ireland. There is a Bala in N Wales. Or it could be perhaps the name of his house? Or somewhere near Liverpool?

The marriage in 1831 is there also (which is why I am guessing the death is also his) - but so far I haven't spotted anything else.

[drowning]

Thank you for your information. Yes there were many Crabtrees in India. However I am still working on these but to date have only found one that came from Ireland.
Thank you for your kind help.

[grisel]

The Liverpool Echo death and marriage notices were on the British Library's 19th Century Newspapers site (google it)

Luckily my local library subscribes so I have free access from home with my library card which is great.

I don't know what the position is in Ireland but I would have thought it would be available at larger libraries. Failing that it is a subscription site and you could pay - but I would suggest contacting your local libary first.

[drowning]

Thank you - the nearest to me is Dublin which is 3 hours away.
I have found Bahia - it is in Brazil and there was a Crabtree Company there.
As I was looking through various information on Bahia I found yet another anomaly
One is provided with a wonderful answer then blow me down this brings up 20 more questions.
This was in the Preston Chronicle. Strange that one from Bahia was in Rossendale and the other in Preston?
"On Tuesday at Laughton-en-le-Morthen (near Rotherham Yorkshire) ? ?????Crabtree Esq of Bahia to Helen, youngest daughter
I would love to know which ?????Crabtree this is as obviously a brother perhaps of Thomas was married to a Crabtree? Or maybe a cousin. The owner of the Company in Bahia is Abraham Crabtree so now I will check him out.
If you have the time I would be delighted to find out who this fellow was please.
Thank you once more for your kind help. It is truly wonderful.

[grisel]

I have had another look at Thomas's death notice and yes it could well be Bahia - so I'll see if anything else crops up that seems to be relevant.

[grisel]

Found in a website 'My Monumental Inscription Research in Cheshire' at Gawsorth St James various Crabtrees including ' Helen Crabtree daughter of the above James and Edwina, and widow of Abraham Crabtree of Liverpool and Bahia'. The dates seem a little confusing tho.

Also in the Liverpool echo Jun 29 1827
'Sunday last at St Nicholas Church Mr Abraham Crabtree brother to Mr James Crabtree vicar of Laughton to Mrs Elizabeth Baldwin'

The 1827 marriage of an Abraham Crabtree to Elizabeth Baldwin in LDS pilot
and the 1834 marriage of an Abraham Crabtree to Helen Crabtree also in LDS pilot.

But if the one who married Elizabeth is brother to Rev James and if according to the MI above Helen is Rev James daughter then I think we must have 2 different Abrahams. Or maybe two Revs!

[grisel]

Abraham and Helen seem to have at least one child - Abraham ch 3 Feb 1842 St Augustine's Everton Lancs

[grisel]

Now I have found another site with Helen and Abraham with Helen's death in 1897 which makes more sense. 'The Family of Robert Alan and Susan Bennett' . Can you Google it? I have not even begun to work out the various Crabtrees but no Thomases that I can see. But I think it is the Abraham of Bahia's family.

[drowning]

Cor Blimey Grisel you are wonderful. The Bennett Family are the fellows. Would it not be possible though that Honest Abe married twice? The dates are far enough apart? The Helen Crabtree you found is definitely the one I am tracking. As to two Rev James - there are to my knowledge 2 - the second one is the son of Samuel Crabtree and Samuel was imported to Ireland as a Dyer - James returned to England and became a Minister and ended up at Marsden. This particular family I have traced up to 1936 which is great. His brother Thomas also returned to England and became a successful man in the Dying industry. He had 2 sisters but those I have not traced. I followed them from Dublin to Ardwick to Preston to Marsden which is near Blackpool.
Now I have founfd Bahia Thomas and Bahia Abraham, I can now try and link them familially? So many thanks for your wonderful help.


Now I have found another site with Helen and Abraham with Helen's death in 1897 which makes more sense. 'The Family of Robert Alan and Susan Bennett' . Can you Google it? I have not even begun to work out the various Crabtrees but no Thomases that I can see. But I think it is the Abraham of Bahia's family.

[grisel]

happy to help - but all credit is due to Google and the British Library!

Here are some more snippets from the Liverpool Mercury.

Feb 12 1830 Death
'On Sunday last, aged 68, mr Abraham Crabtree, of this town'

1852 - Mention of Abraham Crabtree merchant of Rumford Place

Oct 3 1866 Death
'September 30 at Ashfield, Sale, age 24 Abraham Crabtree BA, only son of the late Abraham Crabtree esq of this town.

Also (googling Crabtree Bahia) look at ' University of Oxford Centre for Brazilian Studies Working Paper' Have only glanced at it but it looks like a very readable account of the daily lives of the British merchants and families in Bahia.

Last thought - as you have Thomas's death date you may be able eventually to come on a death notice/ obituary in an Irish paper, or a burial record at his church which might give his age at death and hence a rough date of birth.

Best of luck!

And as to Abraham marrying twice - yes he could. My problem is that the Abraham who married Elizabeth Baldwin in 1827was (according to the newspaper report) Rev James Crabtree's brother.
Then the Abraham who married in 1834 to Helen Crabtree married (according to the Cheshire M I site) rev James' daughter.
Wonderfully confusing!

[drowning]

Dear Grisel
You are a wonder - thank you.
You are right. I believe cousins married but it may be pushing it a bit for an uncle to marry a niece? I will pursue the Abraham MA.
As to deaths in Ireland - there are so few records still standing because of the burning of them in 1920. Getting one family from cradle to grave is a huge accomplishment but I will continue to search. The best info yet is yours from the Liverpool Echo. Huge breakthrough for me.
Great work and very generous to look at these for me.

[grisel]

A thought. I think the will of Abraham Crabtree who died 1830 might be interesting. If he is part of the Bahia Crabtrees it might mention Thomas. The Abraham mentioned in the Anc probate lists as 1830 Cheshire looks promising (sorry can't read full details as I don't have a subscription).

There is also an 1836 Cheshire probate reference to a Thomas Crabtree which could just poss be your Thomas's will details. If he lived in Ireland and had business interests abroad a will could take a long time to be proved.

[drowning]

A thought. I think the will of Abraham Crabtree who died 1830 might be interesting. If he is part of the Bahia Crabtrees it might mention Thomas. The Abraham mentioned in the Anc probate lists as 1830 Cheshire looks promising (sorry can't read full details as I don't have a subscription).

There is also an 1836 Cheshire probate reference to a Thomas Crabtree which could just poss be your Thomas's will details. If he lived in Ireland and had business interests abroad a will could take a long time to be proved.

Such excellent foraging. I will pursue this wonderful detail. Thank you so much. It is quite amazing that in the last 72 hours I have all this information.
Such a great site. Thank you.

[grisel]

Hi again

Seems like you also have a Bahai James to join Thomas and Abraham.

There are a couple of partnership dissolutions in the London Gazette.

Partners in 1841 were – Lawrence Heyworth jnr of Liverpool, James Crabtree of Shaw Clough, Abraham Crabtree and Robert Aked of Liverpool, Edward Fenton and Oliver Gairley Adamson of Pernambuco and John Elliott of Bahia, Merchants.

Partners in 1850 were James Crabtree, Abraham Crabtree, Robert Aked of Liverpool, Edward Fenton. John Elliott and George Patchett of Pernanbuco and Bahia, Commission merchants.

Lawrence Heyworth was originally from Bacup/Rossendale area so a local link with the Crabtrees there maybe.

Also had a closer look at the Bennettt family site already mentioned. Lots of information which you will have seen. They have the Abraham b1802 (who married Helen) –( Bahia Abraham) and who died between 1851 and 1861. So obviously a different Abraham from the one who died in 1830. But was the Abraham who died 1830 related?

They have the Abraham b1802 as son of John and Esther. John and Esther definitely did have a son Abraham bap1802 but I can’t quite see how they have proved the link. Maybe it was in the place of birth in the 1851 census.

However if we assume that John and Esther are indeed his parents – they married in 1792 and the baptism of the first child recorded was 1798 – so it is possible that there were older children, including Thomas perhaps, maybe the family lived elsewhere. These baptisms are all on the Lancashire OPC site at St Nicholas in Newchurch which you probably have seen. But so many Crabtrees!! There is a James bap 1801St Nicholas but different parents (Richard and Mary) but no Thomas.

Looking at the indexes for the censuses I think John and Esther might be alive in 1841 and John still alive in 1851. There is a possible burial at St John’s in Bacup in 1852 of an 80 year old John. ( But could be a complete red herring). However can’t see any wills for that John Crabtree coming up which is a great pity.

Also there is a Rossendale family history society which might be worth contacting.

You certainly must be truly drowning in Crabtrees but hope this helps a little!

[grisel]

From Blackburn Standard Wed Sep 30 1840.
Marriage
'On Thursday last at Newchurch Rossendale James Crabtree Esq of Shaw Clough (late of Pernambuco) to Mary third daughter of the late Henry Hargreaves Esq of the former place.'

Being after 1837 this wiill be registered.
I think James Crabtree Sep 1840 Haslingden Vol 21 p 255 (from freebmd) - and should have James' father's name. Unfortunately costs money.

[drowning]

Helps a little? That is the understatement of the year. It is fantastic. Wow it would have taken me a year to unearth this valuable information. The son of Abraham Baptized 1842 he died 1867 aged 24. I am so grateful to you for your kind help. As to drowning in Crabtree's that is why I chose the name!!!!!!!

[drowning]

I found Thomas and he was born in Bacup - he came from Fearns. His sister also married and am chasing that up too. Thank you for your invaluable help.
Drowning in Crabtree's.

[grisel]

I found Thomas

.

Brilliant!

[judith webb]

I may be late in coming to the forum, but I can probably clear up many of the questions. I am descended from Abraham Crabtree (1802-1859) and his wife Helen (1802-1897) who was also a Crabtree by birth. Abraham, and his older brothers James (1793-1863) and Thomas (1800-1834) are all the sons of John Crabtree of Newchurch in Rossendale and his wife Esther Standring. The brothers were in partnership with various other men, notably the Heyworth Brothers (also of Rossendale) and Robert Aked, of Liverpool. They traded in 'Brazil Produce', probably hides, cotton and sugar, from about the mid 1820s, to about 1855. Partnerships were formed and dissolved, at various times and eventually Abraham seems to have been the sole remaining partner, he had worked in Bahia, before returning to Liverpool. He died of pulmonary consumption in 1859 and seems to have tried to hand the firm on to his son, also Abraham (1842-1866), who was a mathematics graduate and teacher at Repton School, for a very short while. But he too contracted consumption and died very young - I suspect he had given up on the firm already. The only remaining child was a daughter, my great-grandmother. James Crabtree ran the firm in Pernambuco, before returning to Liverpool and Newchurch, married twice and had only a daughter, who died young. Thomas who also worked in Bahia, doesn't appear to have married before his early death. The sole remaining siblings of the original Crabtree family were John, who became a doctor in Newchurch, financed by James' money and who also died without children and Harriet Matilda, who married William Haworth, a Bengal merchant and had one daughter, Alice.

I should perhaps add that Helen Crabtree was the sole surviving child of the Rev James Crabtree (at least that I've been able to trace).
Explanation: Rev James married twice and there were at least 4 children from the first marriage, of who one seems to have married. But I can trace nothing of her after her marriage. The other children probably died in infancy.
From his second marriage, to Edna Rathbone, which happened whilst he was the curate of Gawsworth, he had 8 children, only 3 of whom survived childhood. The Rev James moved from Gawsworth in 1818, as a widower with youngish children, to Laughton en le Morthen in Yorkshire, but all the children but the 3 mentioned below succumbed and are buried in the church there, along with their father, who evenually died in 1835.
Ann married George Vernon and had one daughter, before dying relatively young, in Liverpool. John William joined his brother-in-law's firm of Crabtree, Aked & Co, worked in Bahia and also died young and probably unmarried, whilst living with Abraham & Helen in Liverpool. They are all buried in a family plot, with their mother in Gawsworth churchyard. Helen, of course, married Abraham Crabtree.
Hope this helps and that someone sees it!

[grisel]

Hello Judith and welcome.

I do hope that drowning sees your post as this is his/her thread, and am sure will be very interested.
His reason for starting the thread concerned Thomas Crabtree who married and died in Ireland ( see his first post) and was one of the brothers who worked in Bahia.
It was a very interesting family to research as I remember.
And as you are interested in family history please do look around the forum and feel free to join in.

[drowning]

Brilliant!

Thank you so much for the information Judith. If you would like to see the website on Crabtree in Ireland which, because Thomas married here, I started in order to try and put together families from this country. I was baffled with Margaret Crabtree who married Adam Hudson - Thomas died in 1834 and in 1835 his widow remarried. I cannot find any issue for Margaret and Thomas. I surely wish I could. When you look at all the deaths of the Crabtree children - it is really wonderful to find someone living. the website is:
crabtreesinireland.com
I did not put Thomas in there as he was not born here and had no issue here - that I can find anyway as the records are very scarce.
Allow me to thank you so very much and please let me have your email if possible and I will contact you.
Very best wishes
N

[judith webb]

Just after I'd posted my response, I found Thomas' marriage to Margaret Anna O'Flannagan of Tullamore, Ireland, in a BMD notice in one of the Lancashire/Liverpool papers of the time. Dates to 23 Nov 1831. Most of my information is on a Public Member Tree on Ancestry. With as much information as I can trace on the marriages, births, businesses, etc. Its a work in progress - new information keeps coming up all the time!
Thanks for the interest

[drowning]

Just after I'd posted my response, I found Thomas' marriage to Margaret Anna O'Flannagan of Tullamore, Ireland, in a BMD notice in one of the Lancashire/Liverpool papers of the time. Dates to 23 Nov 1831. Most of my information is on a Public Member Tree on Ancestry. With as much information as I can trace on the marriages, births, businesses, etc. Its a work in progress - new information keeps coming up all the time!
Thanks for the interest

Somewhere among all my papers I have a copy of the marriage certificate of Thomas and Margaret and will post it for you when I find it.
Thanks for the information.
N