Fishy Business!

[parky]

I would appreciate some help with the following family brickwall.

One of my descendants George MULLEY married Charlotte Clarissa WAYLETT in 1863.

They had 11 children together and one of their daughters is proving fun to follow.

Thirza Rosena MULLEY was born c1867 in Ingatestone, Essex.

In the 1871 Census she is aged four living in Margaretting with her parents
In the 1881 Census she is aged 14 living in Hornchuch with her parents
In the 1891 Census she is aged 24 living in Hornchurch with her mother and siblings
In the 1901 Census she is aged 33 but now living in Mile End Old Town and is using the name Meredith with four children but no sign of her husband John.

However, I can't find any evidence of her marriage to John William Meredith.

The children's birth records all show Thirza and John Meredith as parents (Annie Elizabeth 1893, John William 1895, Beatrice Ethel 1896, George Richard 1900 in Stepney)

In 1902 a further child, Albert Edward was born.

I looked for a death certificate of Thirza MULLEY to see if I have the right person but nothing.

I then looked for a death certificate of Thirza Meredith but nothing.

So I checked that Thirza didn't remarry and sure enough in 1926 she married a Walter SALMON.

Out of curiosity I checked the 1911 Census and there was a Thirza Salmon married to a Walter Salmon with one child, Florence, living in West Ham with the Census records showing that they had been married four years.

However, I can't find any record of a Meredith marrying a Salmon prior to 1911.

Further, on the 1911 Census, a Rosina Meredith is visiting Thirza Salmon!

So I thought that John Meredith must have died between 1901 (year before the birth of his last child) and 1908 ( a year after his wife remarried) but nothing......except.... a John Meredith died in 1911 from the same birthplace with the same birthdate in the area where the Merediths previously lived but died in a workhouse aged 60.

Finally, there are a few links on Ancestry where other people (perhaps wrongly) have also identified Thirza Mulley marrying John Meredith and later Walter Salmon.

Can anyone help me verify I have not made one massive mistake.

Cheers

[Peter Goodey]

Thirza Salmon married to a Walter Salmon with one child, Florence,

It would useful to know what the birth certificate shows.


The children's birth records all show Thirza and John Meredith as parents (Annie Elizabeth 1893, John William 1895, Beatrice Ethel 1896, George Richard 1900 in Stepney)

What happened to all those children?

[Nicolina]

it appears as though the younger kids were put into a home in Billericay (Beatrice Ethel, George Richard and Albert Edward). Could Thirza have abandoned them?

[olliecat]

There are children christenings on ANC** at Stepney St Dunstan and All Saints.

I won't transcribe them fully (eyes are playing up and so would be better for you to look at them firsthand).
In each case mother's name is a variation/mispelling of Thirza. Father's name is John and he is a baker.

Annie Elizabeth Meredith on 31 Dec 1894
Living at 6 Walter St.

John William Meredith on 27 Jan 1895
Living at 75 Varden St

Beatrice Ethel Meredith on 14 Mar 1897
Living at 14 Wilson St.

George Richard Meredith on 22 Jul 1900
Living at 25 South Close [Grove?]

I did spot a John Meredith in the 1891 census. Born abt 1850 in Spitalfields. Living at Mile End Old Town. Don't know if it's him but he's a baker. He seems a bit old for Thirza but worth looking at perhaps. Thirza was also living at Mile End Old Town in 1901.
RG12; Piece: 307; Folio 85; Page 45


Oops - I left out little Albert.

Albert Edward Meredith, christened at Bromley St Leonard St Mary on 11 Jan 1903.
Living at 2 Ealing Rd.
Father John is still a baker

[parky]

it appears as though the younger kids were put into a home in Billericay (Beatrice Ethel, George Richard and Albert Edward). Could Thirza have abandoned them?

Thanks to all replies.

Where did you get the Billericay information?

Cheers

[parky]

I am currently still researching all the children but I know George Richard got married and then was killed in the Navy in WW2.

It is the lack of marriage certificates that has me lost.

Unless of course Thirza didn't marry any of them until deciding she better sort out some form of security by marrying Walter Salmon in 1926?

And why leave all her other children?

[Peter Goodey]

What sort of home were the children in? It may be possible to get some record of the children and the reason they were admitted.

[olliecat]

parky, if you look in the 1911 census you will find the children at Billericay, Essex. The name of the institution is given.

A few family trees on ANC indicate that the children were at Hutton Poplar Training School in Essex. Googling Poplar Training School brings up quite a few hits.

This site looks interesting.

http://
workhouses.org.uk/Poplar/Poplar.shtml

and this

www
.skeggy.org/HPS/hps.htm

[olliecat]

There's a particular public family tree on Anc that seems to have a lot of info on the Meredith children - birth certificates, marriage info, photos.

Could be your own tree of course. :D Otherwise definitely worth taking a look.

[Nicolina]

I found the kids on the Census. I didn't get round to looking for all of them, (only the 4 youngest) as I'm playing nursemaid again.

[Nicolina]

here are some possible marriages for the kids:

June Qtr 1921
MEREDITH John W W.Ham 4a 538
BULL Lily E M W.Ham 4a 538

Sept Qtr 1921
MEREDITH Albert E W.Ham 4a 989
CRAVEN Alice W.Ham 4a 989

March Qtr 1922
MEREDITH Beatrice E Nicholls W. Ham 4a 294
NICHOLLS Edwin J Meredith W. Ham 4a 294

[Nicolina]

Sept Qtr 1913

MEREDITH Annie E W. Ham 4a 564
FEARNE Robert W. Ham 4a 564

there is also another Annie E. to DACKS (March Qtr 1922 W. Ham 4a 496) but a search of the GRO doesn't seem to have a DACKS marrying a MEREDITH.

Marriages Dec 1916

MEREDITH George W. Ham 4a 543
VIRTUE Hilda M W.Ham 4a 543

[olliecat]

For the two eldest children in 1911 ...

There is a John William Meredith of the right age living in a home in Holborn.
There is also an Annie Maredith of the right age living in in West Ham

[parky]

The kids story is coming together but still can't find the two marriages of Thirza.

[Lizzy9]

There's this possible death.

Thirza R Salmon, Jan Mar 1949, aged 81, Essex South Western.

[Nicolina]

what was John Meredith's occupation on the children's birth certificates? On the 1901 Census there is a married John W. Meredith, born Wales about 1852, a baker journeyman, living with John Petry (a baker) and family at 19, Devons Road, Bromley, London. No wife living with him.

RG13/344/67 Page 10

[Nicolina]

I've just checked the 1891 Census and found John Meredith a married baker, living alone at 34, Harford Street, Mile End Old Town, but his place of birth is given as Spitalfields.
RG12/07/85 Page 45

In 1881 he is unmarried and living at 55, Sidney St, Mile End Old Town with William & Ann MUNNS as a stepsson.
RG11/471/18 Page 30

without knowing his occupation, from the birth cerificates, he's a possibility.

[Lizzy9]

without knowing his occupation, from the birth cerificates, he's a possibility.

Nicolina, an Ancestry members tree has a birth cert for one of Thirza and John's children, and it says his occupation was a baker journeyman. I have seen the censuses you refer to, but what's puzzling me is the trees on Ancestry have him born in Aberystwith!!!

Maybe Parky knows where he was born?

[Lizzy9]

There on the 1871, all born Spitalfields RG10/3207/ 85/3 (Crown copyright in care of TNA)

Ann Meredith 46
John Meredith 20 Baker
Ann Meredith 17
Alfred Meredith 7

[Lizzy9]

Hi Parky, please can you tell us where you found reference to John Meredith's middle name of William?

[Nicolina]

I've just been trying to find him on the earlier Censuses to see if I can find a clue as to his birth place but got side tracked.
a marriage June Qtr 1874
Ann MEREDITH Bethnal Green Vol. 1c Page 650
William MUNNS Bethnal Green Vol. 1c Page 650

so that's not going to help narrow things down, but at least it's another nail in the coffin (so to speak)

[Nicolina]

this could be the family in 1861
RG09/256/104 Page 64
1, Norfolk Street, St M, Bethnal Green
John, a Labourer, aged 37 b. Spitafields
Ann aged 38 b. Spitafields
Jno. aged 10 b. Spitafields
Ann aged 7.b. Bethnal Green

and 1851
HO107/1543/396 Page 13
21, Wheler Street, Christchurch, Tower Hamlets
Eliza, a Victualler, aged 49 b. Bristol
John, Clerk To General Merchant, aged 27 b. Christchurch, Middlesex
Ann, aged 28 b. Christchurch, Middlesex
John, aged 8 months b. Christchurch, Middlesex
Mary CARR, Servant, aged 28 b. Ireland
Ann GLYNN, Visitor,aged 11 b. Christchurch, Middlesex


John is entered as Son In Law, and Ann as Daughter In Law. Possibly Eliza is John's Step-mom.

It does give an estimate of when John was born

[Nicolina]

FreeBMD has:
Sept Qtr 1850
John MEREDITH Whitechapel Vol 2 Page 608

that fits perfectly with the 1851 Census

[Lizzy9]

Nicolina,

I think the same as you, most probably the censuses you posted are THE John, which is why I asked how Parky knows his middle name was William.

Parky, do you have researched evidence which gives his middle name?

[parky]

what was John Meredith's occupation on the children's birth certificates? On the 1901 Census there is a married John W. Meredith, born Wales about 1852, a baker journeyman, living with John Petry (a baker) and family at 19, Devons Road, Bromley, London. No wife living with him.

RG13/344/67 Page 10

On Annies BC is states that her father is John Meredith - Journeyman Baker

[parky]

Hi Parky, please can you tell us where you found reference to John Meredith's middle name of William?

Hi Lizzy,

The only reference I have is on Ancestry on a Meredith Family tree. However, quite clearly, this could be wrong.

[parky]

While getting John's place of birth and middle name confirmed is needed.....It is really the marriage certificates of Thirza that is puzzling me.

She had a number of children with John Meredith who all ended up in work-houses/schools.....while at the same time she was listed on the 1911 census as married living with Walter Salmon with another child....with the Census showing that had been married for a number of years??