Jones family yuk!!

[royston]

Great great Grandfather Thomas Jones.
Born 1829-1831 at Risca or Machen.
Father definately James who worked as a Collier. This from marriage certificate.
Thomas married unknown before 1858. She died and he married my great great grandmother Sophia Hughes 27 jan. 1858 at Tredegar.
Failed to find Thomas or parents on the 1841 or 1851 census.
Failed to find Thomas and Sophia on the 1861 census
Talk about evasive !!.
Any help or suggestions are very welcome.
Roy

[olliecat]

Can you confirm if this is your family in the later census. If not could you post the refs please.

1871: RG10; Piece: 5315; Folio: 36; Page: 25

1881: RG11; Piece: 5245; Folio: 50; Page: 25

1891: RG12; Piece: 4358; Folio 98; Page 48

1901: RG13; Piece: 4933; Folio: 34; Page: 19 (possibly)

[royston]

Yes, This is the correct family on census.
Thomas having died possibly March 1891 at Bedwellty.
Sophia died 1909.
Roy

[olliecat]

Well can't find Sophia and Thomas in 1861 for the moment. Will have another look a bit later.

Have you figured out who Tom and Amelia Gray in the 1901 census are in relation to Sophia. Is Sophia auntie to Amelia? I see in the 1891 census Tom and Amelia have a daughter Sarah Jones Grey. Initially I can only find a marriage between a Thomas Gray and an Amelia Robins in 1871 in Bedwellty.

[olliecat]

The 1871 census has Thomas born abt 1831 and the 1881 census born abt 1819. Were ages specified for Thomas and Sophia on their marriage in 1858?

[royston]

Hi again,
Ages only shown as full on marriage certifictae.
I have tried and failed to establish any relationship between Sophia and Thomas and Amelia Gray.
Every avenue seems to get blocked.
Thank you again for your continued effort on my behalf.
Roy

[olliecat]

Well, since Thomas’s age is rather undetermined it would be useful to find the family in 1861. Having said that, I looked again for Sophia, Thomas and little Elizabeth in 1861 but couldn’t find them.

I focused mainly on Sophia, since she has the less common name and searched for her in Monmouthshire, Herefordshire and Glamorganshire. Also checked all the Jones's living around Abergavenny/Bedwellty.

I also searched separately for daughter Elizabeth but there was nothing obvious. There was a niece of the right age - Elizabeth S J Jones in Ebbw Vale. I thought I had her for a moment but it stated she was born in Glamorgan. Strangely enough I couldn't find a birth record for an Elizabeth S Jones in Glamorgan though.

What about Sophia Jones nee Hughes before she was married? Have you found her in the census? I did find a Sophia Hughes in the 1851 census, born in Herefordshire, with mother Elizabeth Tomkins but I cannot really tell if it is her. What is Sophia’s father’s name? Also, what are the witness names on the marriage cert?

[olliecat]

I see in the 1891 census Tom and Amelia have a daughter Sarah Jones Grey. Initially I can only find a marriage between a Thomas Gray and an Amelia Robins in 1871 in Bedwellty.

Looking again at the census, Sarah's middle name looks like Jane in the 1881 census and Jones in the 1891 census. Closest birth record is for a Sarah Jane Gray in 1875 in Bedwellty. In which case the 1871 marriage for the parents is more likely.
There is a birth for an Amelia Robins in 1854 in Abergavenny. Right age, name, location - however I cannot find her in the 1861 census either. :shocked: Finding her with her parents would be useful then perhaps a link between her and Sophia could be found.

[olliecat]

Right. Just found an Amelia Richards born abt 1855 in the 1871 census in Ebbw Vale with parents Lewis and Sarah. In the same household is a Thomas Gray born abt 1851 in Portwood, Wiltshire. Can't view the image at the moment - ANC** is timing out. Will investigate in a little while.

Ref: RG10; Piece: 5324; Folio: 57; Page: 19

[royston]

Yes the Sophia you found was the right on. Her Mother had remarried to John Tomkins.
Sophias' father was Samuel Hughs born abt 1783 Cloddock and Longtown, Herefordshire.
Witnesses to her marriage to Thomas Jones were Louisa Price and William Barnes. No obvious relationship to them.
If Sophia is an Aunt, I would think it would be to Amelia as she is from Ebbw Vale. Thomas Grey is from Wiltshire.
One other thing that points to a relationship between Sophia and Amelia (Grey) is they both had daughters named Sarah and Matilda.
It is quite frustrating that it remains a problem as all these events were within 2 miles of where I live. However the place they lived was on the border of 4 parishes, and none of these are easy ones to research. I was hoping to get more from the loading of these parishes to Family search org. but thye have been withdrawn due to copyright.

[olliecat]

If Sophia is an Aunt, I would think it would be to Amelia as she is from Ebbw Vale. Thomas Grey is from Wiltshire.
One other thing that points to a relationship between Sophia and Amelia (Grey) is they both had daughters named Sarah and Matilda.

I was secretely hoping that Amelia might be related to Thomas Jones and Sophia was her auntie-in-law.
ANC** is still timing out on me so I haven't looked at that 1871 image yet. grr!


It is quite frustrating that it remains a problem as all these events were within 2 miles of where I live. However the place they lived was on the border of 4 parishes, and none of these are easy ones to research.

I have a few relative who lived in that area. One minute they were in Monmouthshire, the next in Glamorganshire and then back to Monmouthshire. I'm sure they didn't move very far but the boundaries and reg districts kept shifting around them.


I was hoping to get more from the loading of these parishes to Family search org. but thye have been withdrawn due to copyright

Oh! Do you have further information on this.

[olliecat]

Well, I may have figured out the Richards family in the 1871 census. Surname definitely looks like Richards on the census but I think they are really a Robins family.

See what you think. (Please forgive any transcription errors - all the Aberystruths and Aberystwyths are confusing my eyes)

Possible Marriage Dec 1839 (listed amongst many others are)
GWYNNE Sarah Abergavenny 26 51
ROBINS Lewis Abergavenny 26 51

1841 census: HO107 Piece: 750 Book/Folio: 9/12 Page: 16
Living at Collier's Row, Ebbw Vale Iron Works, Bedwellty
ROBINS, Lewis 20
ROBINS, Sarah 25
ROBINS, Matilda 8 mo
ROBINS, Daniel 25
HUGHES, William 15
Only Matilda was born in the county.

1851 census: HO107; Piece: 2447; Folio: 240 Page: 82
ROBINS, Lewis, 33, head, married, coal miner, born Kingwood, Monmouthshire
ROBINS, Sarah, 37, wife, married, born Peterchurch, Herefordshire
ROBINS, Matilda, 10, dau, born Bedwellty, Monmouthshire
ROBINS, Caroline, 1, dau, born Aberystruth, Monmouthshire
BROOM, John, Lodger, 25, coalminer, born Cheltenham, Gloucestershire
WALTERS, Thomas, 43, lodger, un, excavator, born Caerleon, Monmouthshire
SALISBURY, George, 29 lodger, un, miner, born Aberton, Worcestershire
MALONEY, William, 18, lodger, un, miner, born Pensford, Somerset


Possible marriage of daughter Matilda Dec 1859 Abergavenny 11a 149
Bissex Edwin
Harries James
Price Lucy
Robins Matilda


1871 census: RG10; Piece: 5324; Folio: 57; Page: 19
Living at 12 James Street, Bedwellty, Ebbw Vale
BESSEN, Edwin, 30, head, labourer, born Blackwell Somerset
BESSEN, Matildia 30, wife, born Aberystwyth Monmouthshire
BESSEN, Lewis, 9, son, born Aberystwyth Monmouthshire
BESSEN, Mary, 4, dau, born Aberystwyth Monmouthshire
RICHARDS, Lewis, 52, wife's father, fireman, born Kingwood Gloucestershire
RICHARDS, Sarah, 36, wife, born Hereford?
RICHARDS, Amelia, 16, dau, born Aberystwyth?
NOTE: Edwin and Matilda’s surname is Bissex in the 1881 census

1881 census: RG11; Piece: 5239; Folio: 27; Page: 26
ROBINS, Lewis, 62, head, married, coal miner, born Kingswood Nr Wooton Under Edge, Gloucestershire
SMART, Ann, 17, step dau, house keeper, born Oxford, Oxfordshire
SMART, Frederick, 14, step son, Telegraph Messenger, born Llangattock Brecknockshire

Again, cannot find Lewis and Sarah Robins/Richards in the 1861 census. I’m beginning to think there is something up with the 1861 census in Monmouthshire.

Still haven't found that link to Sophia Jones nee Hughes yet.

[olliecat]

Perhaps Sarah is the link. Perhaps she is Elizabeth's daughter and Sophia's sister. According to the census, Sarah was born abt 1814 in Peterchurch, Herefordshire. There is a christening for a Sarah Hughes in Peterchurch in 1813 with parents Samuel and Elizabeth Hughes. If this is the case then Sophia would indeed be Amelia's aunt. Hmm!

[royston]

Great stuff,
I think that the evidence does point to Sarah and Sophia being sisters.Asyou say this would explain the Aunt connection.
I can only thank you again for your very welcome help.
It certainly gives me a new avenue for research into the descendents of the Hughes/Hughs line. Hopefully the Jones line will open up in time.
Thank you again,Roy

[royston]

Apologies for not replying sooner. Have not been on site fora few weeks.
Silly, how things can be missed.Even though I think I am quite experienced I had missed the age on the 1881 census.
Age not stipulated on the marriage certificate.
Thanks for pointing out my error.
Roy

[Ladkyis]

Can I just say that there are parts of the 1861 for Monmouthshire that are missing as in simply GONE. The areas are as follows

Bettws, Henllys, Howick, Kemeys Inferior, Llanddewi Skirrid, Llanhennock, Llanvetherine, Llanwern, Malpas, Mamhilad, Redwick, Tredunnock, Whitson.

I hope this helps