David Stafford

[perdia]

Hi, I have been trying to find the birth of David Stafford.
He married Edith Cousins in Great Casterton Rutland.
I believe he was born about 1786

Their children
John Stafford born ab 1821 great casterton
David Stafford born ab 1824 .. ..
William Stafford born ab 1827 .. ..
Sarah Stafford born ab 1829 .. ..
Joseph Stafford born ab 1832 .. ..
Mary Stafford born ab 1836 .. ..

I am completly stuck with finding Davids and parents, can anyone help?

[birdlip]

Hi Perdia,

....just lost most of the message I was posting to you! Trying again....

I presume your estimate of Davids age comes from a census or a death certificate? Given his age (35 or so) at the baptism of the John, the first child you've found; do you think he could have been married before?

Do you have an estimate of Edith's age? Could she have been married before? I found this marriage on Family Search Pilot records;

Editha COUSINS m David HOLMES 10 Jun 1818 Great Casterton, Rutland.

Is this an earlier marriage for Edith, or is it David STAFFORD using another name? What do you think?

[valg]

Hi Perdia,

....just lost most of the message I was posting to you! Trying again....

I presume your estimate of Davids age comes from a census or a death certificate? Given his age (35 or so) at the baptism of the John, the first child you've found; do you think he could have been married before?

Do you have an estimate of Edith's age? Could she have been married before? I found this marriage on Family Search Pilot records;

Editha COUSINS m David HOLMES 10 Jun 1818 Great Casterton, Rutland.

Is this an earlier marriage for Edith, or is it David STAFFORD using another name? What do you think?

The family minus david snr are on the 1841 census so presume David is deceased between 1835-1941- There is a death for a David Stafford-birth abt 1786-with a burial at Great Carsterton Rutland for March 1835- this fits and it has a father named- Thomas Stafford.

[birdlip]

The family minus david snr are on the 1841 census so presume David is deceased between 1835-1941- There is a death for a David Stafford-birth abt 1786-with a burial at Great Carsterton Rutland for March 1835- this fits and it has a father named- Thomas Stafford.

Interesting.

A Thomas STAFFORD/Mary couple had six children baptised at Gt Casterton and Gt Casterton-cum-Pickworth, Rutland between 1804-1818. Likely to be a brother of David's?

[birdlip]

Editha COUSINS m David HOLMES 10 Jun 1818 Great Casterton, Rutland.

Is this an earlier marriage for Edith, or is it David STAFFORD using another name? What do you think?

No, how silly am I? If it was an earlier marriage, she would have been Edith Holmes at her marriage to David Stafford. So, can there have been TWO Edith COUSIN's living in Gt Casterton at that date? It doesn't seem a very common name.

[valg]

Birth for a Editha Cousins baptised 1802 Seaton Rutland-parents John Cousins and Ann

[valg]

Birth for a Editha Cousins baptised 1802 Seaton Rutland-parents John Cousins and Ann

Editha is the same name used on the marriage to David Holmes mentioned by birdlip

[janbooth]

Hello Perdia,

Looks as if David may have been illegitimate. From PR Transcripts of Great Casterton:

Baptised 21 January 1787 David STAFFORD mother Ann
also baptised 4 July 1784 Sarah STAFFORD mother Ann

Both these baptisms have "Spurious" in the notes column.

Ann STAFFORD appears to have been baptised 20 March 1768 at Great Casterton the daughter of John & Ann. Siblings include John bap 5 Nov 1767, Thomas 31 Jan 1773, Robert 4 June 1775, William 16 Nov 1778 and Mary 12 Mar 1780. John STAFFORD married Ann ABELL by banns at Great Casterton on 21 October 1766. John STAFFORD, Labourer, was buried at Great Casterton on 17 June 1782.

The PR Transcripts only go up to 1812, so cannot confirm David's marriage for you nor one for sister Sarah.

Hope this helps

Janet

[valg]

Editha is the same name used on the marriage to David Holmes mentioned by birdlip

I am starting to think along the same lines as birdlip can this be the same David using a different surname.
The only David Staffford birth I can find is the one that matches the death I mentioned and this is member submitted on igi

[janbooth]

Further to the above, could this family be related in some way to your Edith - perhaps an uncle - as there are these baptisms in Great Casterton:

29 January 1792 John COUSSENS son William & Elizabeth
21 March 1795 Joseph COUSINS son William & Elizabeth
22 May 1797 Abraham COUSINS son William & Elizabeth
21 March 1800 Editha COUSINS daughter William & Elizabeth

The Editha would appear to be a bit of a coincidence.

Janet

[birdlip]

I don't believe it.....


(Pilot Search) Editha COUSINS bap 21 Mar 1800 Great Casterton-cum-Pickworth, Rutland. Parents William and Elizabeth

It must have been quite a common name in that area then!

[birdlip]

sorry Jan, just saw your post!

[valg]

Oakham Library hold microfilm for Great Carsterton Baptisms-1655-1891
Marriages 1655-1896
Burials 1655-1941
I wonder if any kind member on here is in that area? Or maybe they are available on disc...or contact the library and maybe they can help?

[birdlip]

OK, this scuttles the David Holmes alias STAFFORD idea once and for all, the following baptisms all in Great Casterton, parents David HOLMES and Edith:

Sarah 02 May 1819
Ann 13 Nov 1820
John 23 Sep 1822

Sorry folks, a bit of a red herring there!

[valg]

OK, this scuttles the David Holmes alias STAFFORD idea once and for all, the following baptisms all in Great Casterton, parents David HOLMES and Edith:

Sarah 02 May 1819
Ann 13 Nov 1820
John 23 Sep 1822

Sorry folks, a bit of a red herring there!

I agree birdlip not only have you found the above baptisms but Edith is listed in 1841 census as Stafford.But one thing for sure there is more than one Edith-Editha Cousins born around 1800.

[valg]

Perdia can I ask where you got the name Cousins for Edith from originally?

[valg]

I don't believe it.....


(Pilot Search) Editha COUSINS bap 21 Mar 1800 Great Casterton-cum-Pickworth, Rutland. Parents William and Elizabeth

It must have been quite a common name in that area then!

Maybe the Cousins were cousins and both liked the same name..

[birdlip]

I agree birdlip not only have you found the above baptisms but Edith is listed in 1841 census as Stafford.But one thing for sure there is more than one Edith-Editha Cousins born around 1800.

Just a thought....can you find David and/or Edith Holmes in 1841?

[birdlip]

Maybe the Cousins were cousins and both liked the same name..

:clown::clown::clown::clown::clown:

[valg]

Just a thought....can you find David and/or Edith Holmes in 1841?

No I cant birdlip.

[birdlip]

OK, I'm actually still wondering about this....

Pilot Search lists only 2 David and Edith couples in all of Rutland between 1810 and 1840, both in Great Casterton.

1. David and Edith HOLMES nee COUSINS who have:

1819 Sarah
1820 Ann
1822 John, then apparently no more children.

2. David and Edith STAFFORD nee COUSINS who have:

abt 1821 John ( I can't find his baptism)
1824 David (10 Oct)
1827 William (08 Jul)
1829 Sarah (23 Aug) all these four parents David Stafford and Edith
1832 Joseph (8 Jan)
1836 Mary (23 May) mother Edith Stafford, no father, which supports the death of David Stafford 1835 being the correct one.

So, I know it looks like I just don't want to let this go (!), but was John abt 1821 baptised as HOLMES?

[birdlip]

No I cant birdlip.

hmmmm.....

[perdia]

thanks valg, I did wonder about this, keep getting tied up with the David Holmes and Edith seems rather a coincidence

[perdia]

this sounds promising thank you. what does "spurious" against baptisms mean?

[perdia]

Perdia can I ask where you got the name Cousins for Edith from originally?

Not much help but obtained from someone else who tried to help me!

[perdia]

OK, I'm actually still wondering about this....

Pilot Search lists only 2 David and Edith couples in all of Rutland between 1810 and 1840, both in Great Casterton.

1. David and Edith HOLMES nee COUSINS who have:

1819 Sarah
1820 Ann
1822 John, then apparently no more children.

2. David and Edith STAFFORD nee COUSINS who have:

abt 1821 John ( I can't find his baptism)
1824 David (10 Oct)
1827 William (08 Jul)
1829 Sarah (23 Aug) all these four parents David Stafford and Edith
1832 Joseph (8 Jan)
1836 Mary (23 May) mother Edith Stafford, no father, which supports the death of David Stafford 1835 being the correct one.

So, I know it looks like I just don't want to let this go (!), but was John abt 1821 baptised as HOLMES?

I think no 2 is the one as my ancestor William Stafford married Elizabeth Mason in 1850

[birdlip]

I think no 2 is the one as my ancestor William Stafford married Elizabeth Mason in 1850

Hello Perdia,
my point is, are no 1 and no 2 the same couple?

[birdlip]

'Spurious" means illegitimate.

[valg]

OK, I'm actually still wondering about this....

Pilot Search lists only 2 David and Edith couples in all of Rutland between 1810 and 1840, both in Great Casterton.

1. David and Edith HOLMES nee COUSINS who have:

1819 Sarah
1820 Ann
1822 John, then apparently no more children.

2. David and Edith STAFFORD nee COUSINS who have:

abt 1821 John ( I can't find his baptism)
1824 David (10 Oct)
1827 William (08 Jul)
1829 Sarah (23 Aug) all these four parents David Stafford and Edith
1832 Joseph (8 Jan)
1836 Mary (23 May) mother Edith Stafford, no father, which supports the death of David Stafford 1835 being the correct one.

So, I know it looks like I just don't want to let this go (!), but was John abt 1821 baptised as HOLMES?

I can see what you are getting at Birdlip, it would definately make more sense, I can find no record of David and Edith Holmes after the wedding in census or deaths, there are 2 sarahs, have you found a death that would tie in with the sarah 1819 as it was not unusual for parents to use a name twice if the first child died, maybe Davids mother married or lived with a Holmes and he used that name then for some reason started using Stafford.Strange things happened back then.

[birdlip]

I can see what you are getting at Birdlip, it would definately make more sense, I can find no record of David and Edith Holmes after the wedding in census or deaths, there are 2 sarahs, have you found a death that would tie in with the sarah 1819 as it was not unusual for parents to use a name twice if the first child died, maybe Davids mother married or lived with a Holmes and he used that name then for some reason started using Stafford.Strange things happened back then.

Yes, that's exactly the kind of scenario I was thinking of. I can't see an earlier Stafford/Holmes marriage though.

I noticed the two Sarah's as well, but as you say, that could easily be explained by the first Sarah dying. What's needed is to find that some helpful and diligent parish clerk has added a note in the margin saying 'Stafford also known as Holmes' or vice versa!:smash:That would be too much to ask for though I think!

[perdia]

I have looked and cannot find a death for Sarah Holmes. Is anyone able to check 1841 census to see if there are 2 families in Great Casterton ie David Holmes and Edith / David Stafford and Edith. I do not have access to census so would be grateful if you could look and give me addresses for the different census.

[valg]

I have looked and cannot find a death for Sarah Holmes. Is anyone able to check 1841 census to see if there are 2 families in Great Casterton ie David Holmes and Edith / David Stafford and Edith. I do not have access to census so would be grateful if you could look and give me addresses for the different census.

Have checked 41 census-widowed Edith Stafford is there but no Holmes.

[valg]

Have checked 41 census-widowed Edith Stafford is there but no Holmes.
Edith on census 1851- son John-son William and Williams family
Edith is on census up to 1861- she lives with son Joseph -William and family appear to live next door
1871 she lives with Son John-son William and family.
Now what interests me here is the son Jon- as the son John we listed earlier appeared to belong to the Holmes family ??
This is starting to look more and more like our theory may be correct and this is the same family???

[valg]

I can find no Holmes at all in Great Carsterton in the 1841 census.

[perdia]

I can find no Holmes at all in Great Carsterton in the 1841 census.

Hi valg, I have just come across an oddity and wonder if you can make anything of it in regard to david stafford-holmes
Frances Holmes Stafford born 27 may 1801 Morcott Rutland. Parents Thomas Stafford and Elizabeth

[valg]

Hi valg, I have just come across an oddity and wonder if you can make anything of it in regard to david stafford-holmes
Frances Holmes Stafford born 27 may 1801 Morcott Rutland. Parents Thomas Stafford and Elizabeth

Now that is a good find esp combining the 2 names Holmes and Stafford, there is another child for this couple
Mariann born 1804,
probable marriage is
Thomas Stafford-Elizabeth Goodliff-Morcott-Rutland March 1801.
Will keep digging around with this new information.

[valg]

Found a tree on Ancestry, litle info but has the marriage I listed above as parents for Frances Holmes Stafford, even more interesting they list Elizabeth Goodliff as-Elizabeth Holmes Goodliff, which if correct means the Holmes comes from the Goodliff side.
The tree lists Elizabeths parents as Robert Goodliff 1738 - Morcott.
and Mary Holmes 1745-MorcottWould probably be a good idea to contact the tree owner if you are not a member of Ancestry I would be happy to pass on your details if you would like to pm them to me.

[janbooth]

From PR Transcripts of Morcott:

17 March 1801 Thomas STAFFORD of Harborough & Elizabeth GOODLIFF of Morcott, by licence

Baptisms:

27 May 1801 Frances Homes STAFFORD daughter of Thomas & Elizabeth
1 April 1804 Mariann STAFFORD daughter of Thomas & Elizabeth

15 August 1776 Elizabeth Holmes GOODLIFFE daughter of Robert & Mary

Marriage 1 October 1766 Robert GOODLIFFE & Mary HOLMES, both of Morcott.

Let me know if you would like any further details from the transcripts.

Janet

[valg]

Still trying to find the connection, if as we suspect David Holmes and David Stafford are one, the connection has to be through this family somewhere!
Could David have been an illegitamate son of Elizabeth Holmes Goodliff, could he have been born pre Elizabeths marriage to Thomas Stafford but then why would he use Holmes and not Goodliff? Did Elizabeth use her middle name Holmes for David, is he David Holmes Stafford, if so there should be a baptism record in that name.
Then there was the illigitmate birth for a David Stafford mother Ann found by Janbooth, how would this tie in with Holmes?There was the death for a david Stafford 1835-father Thomas, but would they use a fathers name on a burial for an adult I would think they would use a spouse name?

[valg]

Perdia I think it may be relevant to obtain Ediths death certificate, it should have -widow of - and a husbands name, it may or may not shed light on the Holmes/Stafford connection, but worth a shot.
Edith Stafford
March 1875
Stamford
7a-251
aged 74

[janbooth]

Perdia,

All the census records show your Edith STAFFORD as born c1800 at Great Casterton, so I think we can safely assume as fact that she is the Editha COUSINS baptised 21 March 1800 at Great Casterton, daughter of William & Elizabeth, but at the moment I think that is the only thing you know for sure. The IGI record for the marriage of Editha COUSINS to David HOLMES is a member submitted record, although it does have a batch no., so should be treated with some caution. I really do think you need to consult the parish registers/bishops transcripts of Great Casterton and look at the actual records. The LDS have filmed the bishops transcripts for the appropriate period and you could therefore hire the film to view in situ at your nearest Family History Centre. Unfortunately, the PR Transcripts CD that I have finishes at 1812 and I therefore cannot help you going forward from that time. It could be that David STAFFORD was at some time told that his father was a Mr HOLMES and thus called himself that, but then why revert back to STAFFORD. There is a John & Elizabeth HOLMES having children in Great Casterton at around the time of David STAFFORD's birth, but no baptism of a David to this couple. Looking through the actual records of the parish might give you some clues. For example if Edith did actually marry a David HOLMES, there might be a clue as to his home parish, perhaps a burial for him, and then a remarriage to David STAFFORD but until you do look, all this remains conjecture.

Looking through the actual census pages of Great Casterton in the 1841 census records, there are 3 distinct STAFFORD records: William STAFFORD aged 32 & Rebecca STAFFORD aged 25, Edith STAFFORD aged 40 with children (presumably) David 15, Joseph 7, Sarah 12 & Mary 5 and lastly a Thomas STAFFORD aged 70 and Mary aged 65. This Thomas STAFFORD was baptised 1773 at Gt Casterton son of John & Ann and therefore the brother of the Ann who had the illegitimate son David. He married Mary BOND at Gt Casterton on 25 June 1796 and certainly up until 1812 they did not have a son named David. I could find no-one with the surname HOLMES in the 1841 census of Gt Casterton.

Janet

[perdia]

Perdia I think it may be relevant to obtain Ediths death certificate, it should have -widow of - and a husbands name, it may or may not shed light on the Holmes/Stafford connection, but worth a shot.
Edith Stafford
March 1875
Stamford
7a-251
aged 74

Hi valg, have death certificate. It states Edith Stafford 74 widow of David Stafford a stonemason. Informant Sarah Stafford ,Neice, death 8 january 1875 casterton magna.

[valg]

Perdia,

All the census records show your Edith STAFFORD as born c1800 at Great Casterton, so I think we can safely assume as fact that she is the Editha COUSINS baptised 21 March 1800 at Great Casterton, daughter of William & Elizabeth, but at the moment I think that is the only thing you know for sure. The IGI record for the marriage of Editha COUSINS to David HOLMES is a member submitted record, although it does have a batch no., so should be treated with some caution. I really do think you need to consult the parish registers/bishops transcripts of Great Casterton and look at the actual records. The LDS have filmed the bishops transcripts for the appropriate period and you could therefore hire the film to view in situ at your nearest Family History Centre. Unfortunately, the PR Transcripts CD that I have finishes at 1812 and I therefore cannot help you going forward from that time. It could be that David STAFFORD was at some time told that his father was a Mr HOLMES and thus called himself that, but then why revert back to STAFFORD. There is a John & Elizabeth HOLMES having children in Great Casterton at around the time of David STAFFORD's birth, but no baptism of a David to this couple. Looking through the actual records of the parish might give you some clues. For example if Edith did actually marry a David HOLMES, there might be a clue as to his home parish, perhaps a burial for him, and then a remarriage to David STAFFORD but until you do look, all this remains conjecture.

Looking through the actual census pages of Great Casterton in the 1841 census records, there are 3 distinct STAFFORD records: William STAFFORD aged 32 & Rebecca STAFFORD aged 25, Edith STAFFORD aged 40 with children (presumably) David 15, Joseph 7, Sarah 12 & Mary 5 and lastly a Thomas STAFFORD aged 70 and Mary aged 65. This Thomas STAFFORD was baptised 1773 at Gt Casterton son of John & Ann and therefore the brother of the Ann who had the illegitimate son David. He married Mary BOND at Gt Casterton on 25 June 1796 and certainly up until 1812 they did not have a son named David. I could find no-one with the surname HOLMES in the 1841 census of Gt Casterton.

Janet

John Stafford and Ann Abell married Gr Carsterton 1766-no Holmes connection there.
They appear to have had 6 children
IF the daughter Ann is the mother of an illegitimate David who COULD be the David Holmes/Stafford we are looking for then just maybe the Holmes connection is between Ann Stafford and the father of her illegitimate son David

[valg]

Hi valg, have death certificate. It states Edith Stafford 74 widow of David Stafford a stonemason. Informant Sarah Stafford ,Neice, death 8 january 1875 casterton magna.

No obvious Holmes reference, but it does give an occupation for David Stafford,perhaps the original entry will give an occupation for the groom, I am not sure.
I still am inclined towards this David being the same one as Holmes.Esp with the son John Baptised Holmes but then the Staffords have a son John living with the widowed Edith who we cant find baptism records for, it appears they baptised the first 3 children Holmes then switched to Stafford for some reason I agree you need to look at the original entries for more clues os information, we can keep guessing and making assumptins but at the end of the day you need to be as sure as possible that you have it right.

[valg]

I have looked and cannot find a death for Sarah Holmes. Is anyone able to check 1841 census to see if there are 2 families in Great Casterton ie David Holmes and Edith / David Stafford and Edith. I do not have access to census so would be grateful if you could look and give me addresses for the different census.

There is a burial for a Sarah Stafford 1825 GR Casterton-no age- no parents listed.

[janbooth]

There is one Sarah STAFFORD living in Great Casterton in the 1871 census. She is the wife of Joseph STAFFORD and is shown as aged 31, born Clipsham (1881 census shows her as born c1836).

Now, how about this for a connection. According to the GRO Index, there is a marriage registration in the September qtr 1862 at Stamford reg district of a Joseph STAFFORD and one of the other names on the page is that of a Sarah COUSENS. According to Family Search Pilot, there is a baptismal record on 10 April 1836 at Clipsham of a Sarah COUSINS daughter of John & Mary. From the PR Transcripts of Great Casterton there is a baptism on 29 January 1792 of a John COUSSENS son of William & Elizabeth, therefore brother to Edith.

The 1841 census of Clipsham shows Sarah COUSINS aged 5 living with (presumably) her mother Mary aged 45 and siblings (presumably) Elizabeth 20, Alice 11 & Mary 7.

Janet