Whitechapel, London 1839

[Gordonkf]

I have relatives, Alexander Fraser who was in Whitechapel in 1839 and Marjory Fraser who was in Frome in 1839. I have not been able to locate either after this date. I believe both of these individuals were born in British Guiana (BG) and came to England after their father died in 1829. They were described in his will as "colored" and their mother's name was Peggy. I hve ver little information on them. I'm not sure of the ages, occupations, whether married or not, when they arrived nor how.

I did find an Alexander Fraser born in BG on the 1841 and 1851 census, however it was not the correct one-wrong father and wrong age.

Are there any sources anyone could recommend on this? Also Marjory seems to change to Margaret in the records-is this your understanding? There are are good Frome sites however I could only locate a Mary Fraser there at this time period.

Is there anything like Londonlives for 1800 forward?
Thanks for any assistance.

[Mutley]

Welcome to the forum, Gordonkf.

I am not sure about a site for Somerset. Whitechapel and Frome seem quite a distance apart for the brother and sister to settle.

If you want the forum members to have a look and see if they can find them, then please give us an approximate year of birth and their father's name and when he died.

Peggy is normally the short form of Margaret, do you know if she came with them?

[malcolm99]

Is this Alexander do you think?

1851 Census: HO107 Piece 1504, Folio 88, Page 50 (record held by TNA, Crown Copyright)

Address: 3, Caledonian Cottages, Hackney, Middlesex

Alexander T FRASER, Head, Unmarried, 26, Merchants Clerk, born West Indies British Subject
Mary CALDER, Aunt, Widow, 47, Housekeeper, born Harlow, Essex
James MORRISON, Visitor, Unmarried, 17, Merchants Clerk, born West Indies British Subject

[Gordonkf]

Thanks. One site for Somerset is www.gomezsmart.myzen.co.uk/ I has quite a bit of information that I hope others will find useful.

The background is that my 3rd great grand uncle went to British Guiana. My guess is late 1790's or early 1800's I do not know the date. He wrote his will in 1818 while in BG. I found him back in Scotland in 1819. His name was Alexander Fraser. He was born at Wester Clunes, Kilratlity Parish, Invernesshire in 1788. He mentioned his children in his will and his desire that if he were to die, that the children and their mother be immediately brought to Scotland and to never return to the colony. He died in 1829 in Kiltarlity Parish, Invernesshire only a short distance from where he was born. He prospered in BG as he purchased a farm in Kiltarlity in 1824 for 3,750 pounds.

I know three of Alexander's (father) children came to England. Hannah who died in Holloway Cottage, outside London in 1831. Marjory Fraser and Alexander (Jr) Fraser, who in a court petition (filed by the siblings) dated 1839 are residents of Frome and Whitechapel (#9 Castle Street) respectively. Two other sisters, Isobel or Isobella Fraser married Angus Fraser, and Elizabeth Fraser married Edward Thorpe. These two sisters and their spouses were residents of BG in 1839. I have not been able to find anything on them either. There was an Edward Thope who drown in 1845 in BG but have not been able to confirm anything.

At the time of the will, 1818, Peggy was pregnant. There is no mention of Alexander (Jr.) in the 1818 will. John, who is mentioned in the will, is not mentioned in the 1839 sibling court filing. From this I'm thinking that John died and Peggy was pregnant with Alexander (Jr.). So the only date of birth I can speculate on is Alexander (Jr.) as either 1818 or 1819. Peggy is noted in the will as Alexander's (father) housekeeper. Since the children are mentioned as "colored" I am assuming Peggy was of color. I have no information as to her status of being free or otherwise nor where she came from if other than BG.

I've posted on rootsweb and the Guyana/BritishGuianaGenealotySociety sites and check regularly. There aren't a great deal of records availble from there. I checked the available newspaper items, vacating colony lists, plantation ownership changes, etc. but no luck yet.

Again, thanks for you interest and I will appreciate any help.

[malcolm99]

Is this Alexander do you think? 1851 Census....Alexander T FRASER, Head, Unmarried, 26, Merchants Clerk, born West Indies British Subject


Well I think I’ve answered my own question because in 1861 he’s living at 2, Brunswick Grove, St Johns Hackney with wife Jane, a servant and a visitor. Both Alexander and the visitor give their place of birth as Demarara, B W Indies.

See 1851 Census: RG9 Piece 154, Folio 74, Page 46 (record held by TNA, Crown Copyright)

I haven’t checked 1871 properly but in 1881 Alexander appears to be dead and Jane is living with her father Philip Le Seelleur in Jersey (RG11 piece 5614 folio 76 page 4 - record held by TNA, Crown Copyright).

Hope this helps

[malcolm99]

An Alexander John Fraser, age 52, died in the Islington Registration District in the December Quarter 1878 which fits in with what else is known about the Alexander from Demarara. A death certificate might give some useful information and I suspect he must have left a will.

[Gordonkf]

Malcolm99 thanks for prompt work. I found this person starting with the 1841 census. I really though he was the one, however, he is not. On the records, a correction was made changing his initial from "T" to "J" specifically John. So I was thinking that the person I was chasing was Alexander John Fraser. This would fix my name dilemma and everything would be perfect. I contacted the person who made the correction and she sent me the complete history on him. Not my Alexander.

Thanks again.

[Lizzy9]

Well I think I’ve answered my own question because in 1861 he’s living at 2, Brunswick Grove, St Johns Hackney with wife Jane, a servant and a visitor. Both Alexander and the visitor give their place of birth as Demarara, B W Indies.

See 1851 Census: RG9 Piece 154, Folio 74, Page 46 (record held by TNA, Crown Copyright

I agree with Malcolm; the census records do suggest he's your man.

I had found the 1851 census record earlier this evening but didn't post, as a visitor arrived, I have just come back to the thread, and after viewing Malcolm's 1861 find I do think it very likely he's found your Alexander.

[Mutley]

There is, in the National Probate Calendar...
Alexander John Fraser, a merchant with a personal estate under £100, died 10 Nov 1878 at 50 Gloucester Road, Holloway. Jane Catherine Fraser, "Widow the Relict one of the Executors".

Sounds like the chap Malcolm99 has found. However, the age seems wrong if Peggy was expecting him in 1818?

[Lizzy9]

. I contacted the person who made the correction and she sent me the complete history on him. Not my Alexander.

Ok, if you are certain her research is accurate; it's back to the drawing board.

It does seem coincidental that two Alexander Fraser's were born around the same time in British Guyana! Maybe they are somehow related?

[Lizzy9]

At the time of the will, 1818, Peggy was pregnant. There is no mention of Alexander (Jr.) in the 1818 will. John, who is mentioned in the will, is not mentioned in the 1839 sibling court filing. From this I'm thinking that John died and Peggy was pregnant with Alexander (Jr.). So the only date of birth I can speculate on is Alexander (Jr.) as either 1818 or 1819. Peggy is noted in the will as Alexander's (father) housekeeper. Since the children are mentioned as "colored" I am assuming Peggy was of color. I have no information as to her status of being free or otherwise nor where she came from if other than BG.


Hi Gordon,

You appear to be basing Alexander's birth year on Peggy's pregnancy in 1818; isn't it possible that this child was either miscarried or died in infancy, and Alexander was born later?

[Mutley]

It would have been useful to find the marriage of Alexander and Jane but I've searched high and low :(

If Peggy was Alexander Senior's housekeeper, might they not have been listed under her surname?

[Lizzy9]

There is, in the National Probate Calendar...
Alexander John Fraser, a merchant with a personal estate under £100, died 10 Nov 1878 at 50 Gloucester Road, Holloway. Jane Catherine Fraser, "Widow the Relict one of the Executors".

I've looked at the 1871 census for 50, Gloucester Road; no-one was at home on census night!

I have been unable to find Alexander and Jane in 1871.

[Kerrywood]

Hi Gordon

These people are very hard to find. It might be easier if we could focus on some proven data, so could we have a little more please?


I know three of Alexander's (father) children came to England. Hannah who died in Holloway Cottage, outside London in 1831 ...

What is your source for Hannah's death please? Do you have a burial record for her, stating her age? Did she leave a will?


... Marjory Fraser and Alexander (Jr) Fraser, who in a court petition (filed by the siblings) dated 1839 are residents of Frome and Whitechapel (#9 Castle Street) respectively.

Can you tell us a little more about this petition? What was the cause, to which court was it submitted, and what was the outcome?

Answers to any of these questions might assist with further searches for these people.

[malcolm99]

It would have been useful to find the marriage of Alexander and Jane but I've searched high and low :(



Were you able to search Jersey marriages Mutley? It's possible that they married there. If it can be traced, a marriage would help to clarify things a little.

[Gordonkf]

First, thanks for all the support. I'm realy impressed with the help.

Lizzy 9: Yes, I hinged Alexander's estimated 1818-1819 birth on Peggy's pregnancy in 1818. He's the only one I can even speculate on. I have no basis for even a guess on the others. I'm sure Alexander (father) left in 1818 or 1819 right after he wrote his will as I found him joining a group in Invernesshire in 1819. Although he could have returned to BG sometime after that I'm betting against it. Yes, they could be listed under her name. In his will, Alexander (father) only refers to her as the children's mother and as Peggy. No last name is given and I have not yet found one scrap of information on her. There are not ship arrival records for this period of time and could not find them in the departure records for Guiana I'm not sure she came to England, she may have stayed there with her two daughters.

Kerrywood: I have two sources from the National Archives of Scotland. They are GD23/10/732 and GD23/10/733. The first is a petition to the Commissioners of His Majestys Treasury dated 1839. It deals with the siblings dividing up their deceased sister's (Hannah) estate. She died in 1831. In reading it the only asset she had was an interest in her father's estate which wound up the be 158 pounds. Curiosly, her father died in 1829. I have no idea why the time lag to deal with the issue. I am certainly curious as to what triggered them filing after so many years.

The second is a series of letters between the Treasury and two lawyers (I think you call them solicitors). As I understand it, the money had been turned over to the crown at the closing of the estate and the siblings had to prove who they were and entitled to the money. I could find no similar paperwork on the sibiling originally being paid their portion.

Recitals in the above indicate Hannah died at Holloway Cottage in 1831 and is the source of the locations of the siblings and spouses as applicable. Are there any parish or church records from this area in the 1830's that may shed light? These sources indicate she had no assets at her death. How would this have been handled? No record? I looked at some old maps and see that there were cemeterys in that area. Does anyone know of any records for these?

Thanks again for all your wonderful help.

[Kerrywood]

Thanks for the extra information, Gordon.


Hannah died at Holloway Cottage in 1831 ... Are there any parish or church records from this area in the 1830's that may shed light?

The burial register for St Mary Islington (accessed via Ancestry's database of London parish registers) shows that Hannah FRASER was buried at Islington on 30 July 1831, from Holloway, aged 18 years. No further information is given.

Presumably Hannah died intestate, and her siblings had to apply to the court to administer her estate? I'm afraid I'm not familiar enough with probate procedures to understand why they should have applied to the Treasury Commissioners, rather than to a church court, nor why the records are in Scotland.

Would Scottish legislation have prevailed here because the father's will had been proved in a Scottish court?

I do hope someone else will be able to help with this.

[Mutley]

Recitals in the above indicate Hannah died at Holloway Cottage in 1831 and is the source of the locations of the siblings and spouses as applicable. Are there any parish or church records from this area in the 1830's that may shed light?
You have mentioned, more than once, Holloway Cottage as the place of death for Hannah and I see you have looked at some old maps, so do you know what area this was in, was it Islington?

I think you said earlier that it was London but I do not recognise it as a place in London, Swiss Cottage or Holloway but not Holloway Cottage. If we can establish exactly where Holloway Cottage was it may help.

There will not be a death certificate for Hannah and I cannot see a burial as being useful information at the moment, only inasmuch where it was, might help pinpoint the other children.

I also looked for Castle Street, Whitechapel, (your post #4) in 1841. Several Castle Streets, not one in Whitechapel but there was one in Hackney and it did not have any Frasers living there.

Curious and Curiouser ???

P.S. Kerrywood seems to have established Hannah's place of death as Islington so moves us slightly further north from Whitechapel.

[Gordonkf]

Mutley: I believe they changed the name to "old Castle Street".

To one and all I wish to thank you for your help on my quest. I was fearfull the the young lass would have been buried without record and lost forever. A special thanks to you Kerrywood for finding the entry. Hopefully at some future time I'll be able to visit the site and pay my respects. I am extremely grateful for you finding the record. For now this ends my search for Hannah and I return to Alexander and Marjory.

Kerrywood, you also focused in on a legal issue brought up in the 1839 letters between attorneys. The conclusion was that since the father died in Scotland, Scotland law prevailed.

[Kerrywood]

Curiosly, her father died in 1829. I have no idea why the time lag to deal with the issue. I am certainly curious as to what triggered them filing after so many years.
I wonder if they had to wait until Alexander reached the age of 21? I know nothing of Scottish law, but in England I doubt he would have been able to petition in his own name below that age. Just a thought.