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rogtut
28-09-2010, 12:58 PM
According to the Scotland Census returns for 1861, 1871, 1881 and 1891 Mary Ann Ross MS Garden was born in Fochabers, Moray in 1837.

As you know some Scottish birth records give the motherís name and place and date of marriage. I noticed that the birth record for one of her 12 children (my great grandmother) showed her as being married on 11 June 1848 in New Machar, Aberdeen to James Ross of Dyke, Moray born in 1826. I assumed this was a mistake and viewed the birth records of 2 of her other children. To my surprise they had the same consistent information.

To add to the mystery their first child James was not born until 1856 (according to the 1861 Census). I have not been able to trace the 1851 Census for either or preferably both together.

Any thoughts?

jac65
28-09-2010, 1:32 PM
Hi

In 1851 Mary Garden age 14 is home with her parents. Her birth place has been transcribed as Tochabers, Morayshire

Andy

Bertie
28-09-2010, 2:13 PM
Is this the family?

Name: James Ross
Gender: Male
Birth Date: 05 Sep 1856
Birthplace: BATHGATE,WEST LOTHIAN,SCOTLAND
Father's Name: James Ross
Mother's Name: Mary Garden
Indexing Project (Batch) Number: C11662-1
System Origin: Scotland-ODM
Source Film Number: 6035516
Collection: Scotland Births and Baptisms, 1564-1950

Name: Daniel Ross
Gender: Male
Birth Date: 21 Aug 1858
Birthplace: BATHGATE,WEST LOTHIAN,SCOTLAND
Father's Name: James Ross
Mother's Name: Mary Garden
Indexing Project (Batch) Number: C11662-1
System Origin: Scotland-ODM
Source Film Number: 6035516
Collection: Scotland Births and Baptisms, 1564-1950

Name: Mary Ann Sime Ross
Gender: Female
Birth Date: 18 Mar 1860
Birthplace: BATHGATE,WEST LOTHIAN,SCOTLAND
Father's Name: James Ross
Mother's Name: Mary Garden
Indexing Project (Batch) Number: C11662-1
System Origin: Scotland-ODM
Source Film Number: 6035516
Collection: Scotland Births and Baptisms, 1564-1950

Name: Alexander Ross
Gender: Male
Birth Date: 18 Mar 1862
Birthplace: BATHGATE,WEST LOTHIAN,SCOTLAND
Father's Name: James Ross
Mother's Name: Mary Garden
Indexing Project (Batch) Number: C11662-1
System Origin: Scotland-ODM
Source Film Number: 6035516
Collection: Scotland Births and Baptisms, 1564-1950

Name: Elizabeth Ross
Gender: Female
Birth Date: 02 Jul 1863
Birthplace: BATHGATE,WEST LOTHIAN,SCOTLAND
Father's Name: James Ross
Mother's Name: Mary Garden
Indexing Project (Batch) Number: C11662-1
System Origin: Scotland-ODM
Source Film Number: 6035516
Collection: Scotland Births and Baptisms, 1564-1950

Name: Helen Ross
Gender: Female
Birth Date: 02 Nov 1868
Birthplace: KIRKLISTON,WEST LOTHIAN,SCOTLAND
Father's Name: James Ross
Mother's Name: Mary Garden
Indexing Project (Batch) Number: C11667-1
System Origin: Scotland-ODM
Source Film Number: 6035516
Collection: Scotland Births and Baptisms, 1564-1950

Name: Robert Ross
Gender: Male
Birth Date: 26 May 1870
Birthplace: KIRKLISTON,WEST LOTHIAN,SCOTLAND
Father's Name: James Ross
Mother's Name: Mary Garden
Indexing Project (Batch) Number: C11667-1
System Origin: Scotland-ODM
Source Film Number: 6035516
Collection: Scotland Births and Baptisms, 1564-1950

Name: William Ross
Gender: Male
Birth Date: 02 Feb 1874
Birthplace: KIRKLISTON,WEST LOTHIAN,SCOTLAND
Father's Name: James Ross
Mother's Name: Mary Garden
Indexing Project (Batch) Number: C11667-1
System Origin: Scotland-ODM
Source Film Number: 6035516
Collection: Scotland Births and Baptisms, 1564-1950

I've had a look at FamilySearch and Scotlandspeople (OPRs and Statutory Register) for a marriage but cannot find one: do you know if they were non-con? That aside, the stated marriage date must surely be an error based on the 1851 census record.

James' birth:
Name: James Ross
Gender: Male
Baptism/Christening Date: 14 Jan 1826
Baptism/Christening Place: DYKE,MORAY,SCOTLAND
Birth Date: 01 Jan 1826
Father's Name: William Ross
Mother's Name: Elisabeth Sim
Indexing Project (Batch) Number: C11133-4
System Origin: Scotland-ODM
Source Film Number: 990796
Collection: Scotland Births and Baptisms, 1564-1950

Notice the mother's maiden name - checks with daughter Mary Ann's birth record

I can't find a birth / chr. record for Mary Ann

rogtut
28-09-2010, 6:13 PM
Thanks very much, Bertie and yes this is the family. I must day that I'm feeling just a little foolish at the moment as I hadn't realised that these records were available from LDS. I have used the LDS centre in London extensively over the past year to great effect but for some reason these records had passed me by. This microfiche is in London and I'll have a look at it later this week.

I'm not sure about noncon but my mother's family are RC - her mother married a shale miner and son of a an Irish Catholic.

Incidentally I have the death record for James Ross (aged 87 in 1913) and this shows his father as William Ross a journeyman joiner and his mother as Margaret Syme rather than Elizabeth?

Thanks again.

Roger J Tutton

rogtut
28-09-2010, 6:39 PM
I also have the death record for Mary Ann Ross MS Garden aged 54 in 1893. It shows her father as James Garden a Joiner Dec'd and her mother as Ann Syme (yes Syme) Dec'd.

Bertie
28-09-2010, 6:50 PM
Don't worry - happens to us all! Re. mother's name, it's not that uncommon for the informant to get it wrong! Re. James in 1851 is he one of these?

Piece: SCT1851/131 Place: Duffus -Morayshire Enumeration District: 6
Civil Parish: Duffus Ecclesiastical Parish, Village or Island: Duffus
Folio: 103 Page: 20 Schedule: 85
Address: Burghead



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Surname First name(s) Rel Status Sex Age Occupation Where Born Remarks
JAFFREY Christian Head W F 51 Spinster Morayshire - Duffus
ROSS James Lodger U M 25 Cooper Morayshire - Dyke

OR

Piece: SCT1851/133 Place: Dyke -Morayshire Enumeration District: 2
Civil Parish: Dyke Ecclesiastical Parish, Village or Island: Dyke
Folio: 111 Page: 6 Schedule: 32
Address: Kintessack Village



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Surname First name(s) Rel Status Sex Age Occupation Where Born Remarks
ROSS John Head U M 33 Mason Master Emp 3 Men Morayshire - Dyke
ROSS Alexander Brothr U M 26 Mason Jman Morayshire - Dyke
ROSS James Brothr U M 24 Mason Jman Morayshire - Dyke
ROSS Frederick Brothr U M 20 Mason Jman Morayshire - Dyke
MCGILLAVRAY Isabella Aunt U F 65 Housekeeper Morayshire - Dyke

FreeCEN covers Moray in 1851

Bertie
28-09-2010, 7:11 PM
This is Mary's family in 1851:

Piece: SCT1851/126 Place: Bellie -Morayshire Enumeration District: 2
Civil Parish: Bellie Ecclesiastical Parish, Village or Island: Bellie
Folio: 100 Page: 32 Schedule: 154
Address: Burnside Of Fochabers



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Surname First name(s) Rel Status Sex Age Occupation Where Born Remarks
GARDEN James Head M M 69 Cartwright Banffshire - Rathven
GARDEN Mary Wife M F 45 Morayshire - Fochabers
GARDEN William Son U M 21 Cartwright Morayshire - Fochabers
GARDEN Mary Dau U F 14 Scholar Morayshire - Fochabers
Page: 100/33 GARDEN John Son - M 13 Scholar Morayshire - Fochabers
GARDEN Margaret Dau - F 11 Scholar Morayshire - Fochabers
GARDEN Peter Son - M 9 Scholar Morayshire - Fochabers
GARDEN Jane Dau - F 7 Scholar Morayshire - Fochabers
GARDEN Robert Son - M 3 Morayshire - Fochabers

Bertie
28-09-2010, 7:21 PM
It looks like their parish is Bellie. The records can be found here:

http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~hughwallis/IGIBatchNumbers/CountyMoray.htm#F

Poss. marriage is James Garden and Mary Taylor 26 Jun 1824

From looking at the records, it would seem that none of the children were baptised, but that's just a quick look.

rogtut
28-09-2010, 7:40 PM
Thanks again Bertie

I can't find the births but I did find:
James Garden
Baptism/Christening Date: 10 Jun 1779
RATHVEN,BANFF,SCOTLAND
Fathe: John Garden
System Origin: Scotland-ODM
Source Film Number: 991192

There is also a marriage in 1824 to a Mary Taylor.

rogtut
28-09-2010, 7:42 PM
We must have crossed on these. I've just been called for dinner! Catch up later.

Roger

jac65
29-09-2010, 2:37 AM
Hi Roger

How about this for a possibility. What if James Ross did in fact marry on 11th June 1848 in New Machar, Aberdeenshire but not to Mary Garden. A few years later James & Mary become a couple but don't marry. When James & Mary are registering their children they are asked a marriage date & place and give the details from 1848 rather than say not married. Its a bit from left field but:

the children were born well away from where James & Mary were born and raised so the information wouldn't have been queried.
the fact the same date was used several times suggest that it has some meaning.
it would explain the apparent gap between the alleged marriage and the birth of their first child (unless they lost any earlier births)

Prior to 1855 the IGI for Scotland is mainly the Established Church of Scotland, between 1855 and 1875 the IGI transcribed Scottish births and marriages from the Statutory Registers so if the event was registered it should be on the IGI

If you have marriage certificates for some of the children, they may help identify whether the family was RC or possibly Free Church, if they are RC then you could check the Catholic Parish Records on Scotlandspeople, if they are Free Church or other Non conformist then it might be worth trying to find what churches were in New Machar area in 1848 and where the records might be and check marriages on 11th June for any clues.

Andy

rogtut
03-10-2010, 9:51 AM
Thanks to all who have helped me with this. I've been away for a few days but am now back and will do some more work on this marriage etc. I will let you know how I fare.