HOFFMAN marriage

[Madyliz]

Hi
I have tried everywhere to find the marriage of Gustav Hoffman b1863 in Frankfurt d 1945 Essex and Marie(Mary) Helm b1867 austria d 1941 London. They appear on census 1881, 91, 1901, and 1911 where it is stated married 24 yrs. they had 11 children from 1881 through to 1912. Most of whom I have traced. I have hit a brickwall trying to find their marriage though, tried all sorts even german and french records as that is where Marie travelled from originally with her family. they lived in the eastham westham area of London. Even tried the french consulate as apparently Marie worked there as a pastry chef we think, but not much luck with records.
Any suggestions would be welcome as it is a real brickwall.
thanks Liz

[Raffaele]

You have Marie b 1867 which makes her just 14 years old in 1881. Just old enough to marry. Where did their birth dates come from.
Marie travelled here with her parents. What evidence do you have for this.
Worked as a pastry chef at the French consulate.

Based on these facts quite a remarkable girl but these facts don't sit too well together.

Could be they were a young couple who ran away together arriving in England claiming they are married.
But she is very young for that. When in 1881 was the first child born ?

[Mutley]

If I have the correct family on the 1891 census. Gustav being a hairdresser/chiropodist?
They have 2 children, Sydney and Emma. Sydney was born in Bohemia (as was Marie) in 1889.

If on the 1911 they state they have been married for 24 years then it should have been in 1887 making it sound like they married before they came to the UK.

I cannot find them in 1881 do you have the reference?

[valg]

I can't pick up this family in 1881? First I can see is 1891 with 2 young children, Sydney and Emma ages 2 and 1, if they had been married 24 yrs as stated 1911 census would make a marriage around 1887 and there first child Sydney born 1889, sounds more likely, the 1911 census notes 10 children born alive up until the census, in 1891 the first 2 children are noted as born Bohemia as is Marie, so they could not have been in London that long before the 1891 census and would probably have married in that area where the first child was born.

[valg]

I can't pick up this family in 1881? First I can see is 1891 with 2 young children, Sydney and Emma ages 2 and 1, if they had been married 24 yrs as stated 1911 census would make a marriage around 1887 and there first child Sydney born 1889, sounds more likely, the 1911 census notes 10 children born alive up until the census, in 1891 the first 2 children are noted as born Bohemia as is Marie, so they could not have been in London that long before the 1891 census and would probably have married in that area where the first child was born.

Interesting in later census the 2 first children list there birth place as London.

[Madyliz]

Hi again
Sorry finger slip eldest child born 1888!! not 81.

Recently been in contact with son of 2nd child,(his mum died a couple of months after he was born) and he has details of Marie(Mary) Helm 1881 census living at 45 Charlotte st London father christian and mother Bernadine. He seems to think Gustav was living in Somerset place London shown as a lodger and a gardener in 1881 census but only has notes about it and I am not sure it is the correct gustav Hoffman.

I also was confused by the Bohemia reference but have since discovered that parts of Paris were known as Bohemia and also areas of London and quite often put down as an area where living, again not sure how correct this is,, I remain open minded . In later census they are shown as born in Germany and Austria respectively and Sydney is shown as being born in Kings Cross. I have not confirmed this. As there are so many of them I have not as yet sent for any more certs for the children( to expensive!) as initially I am looking for Lily Hoffman who I know went to australia... this maybe another thread later on!!


As to the pastry chef I have recently found a daughter of the youngest child in Australia and she said her father had told her thisfact.
We hope that by finding the marriage cert a lot of things may make more sense.

thanks for your help
Liz

[Madyliz]

forgot to say that I have copy of Emmas birth cert born in London, St Botolph district in 1889.

[valg]

Hi again
Sorry finger slip eldest child born 1888!! not 81.

Recently been in contact with son of 2nd child,(his mum died a couple of months after he was born) and he has details of Marie(Mary) Helm 1881 census living at 45 Charlotte st London father christian and mother Bernadine. He seems to think Gustav was living in Somerset place London shown as a lodger and a gardener in 1881 census but only has notes about it and I am not sure it is the correct gustav Hoffman.

I also was confused by the Bohemia reference but have since discovered that parts of Paris were known as Bohemia and also areas of London and quite often put down as an area where living, again not sure how correct this is,, I remain open minded . In later census they are shown as born in Germany and Austria respectively and Sydney is shown as being born in Kings Cross. I have not confirmed this. As there are so many of them I have not as yet sent for any more certs for the children( to expensive!) as initially I am looking for Lily Hoffman who I know went to australia... this maybe another thread later on!!


As to the pastry chef I have recently found a daughter of the youngest child in Australia and she said her father had told her thisfact.
We hope that by finding the marriage cert a lot of things may make more sense.

thanks for your help
Liz

Marie is listed as Bohemia in 1891 and Austria in 1891 and 1911, if you do a google search for Bohemia you will read it is bounded on the South East by the Grand duchy of Lower Austria, so I suspect that Marie was in fact born in Austria and not Paris, so the Marie Helm in 181 may not be the right one, of course this is just my opinion. I also noticed the Hoffman on the 81 census but gardener to hairdresser is quite a jump in professions.

[Mutley]

Gustav Sydney Hoffman's birth is registered in Islington in June 1888. 1b/322

I know the certs are expensive but this would at least give you an address for them to help narrow down the possible marriage area for mum and dad.

The full details of his marriage in 1917 are on Ancestry if you want them.

[Madyliz]

Hi Valg
yes the more I think about it you are probably correct but this makes it even more difficult to find birth records? for instance, and it would explain the discrepancy between Marie and Mary ,,, though on the two birth certs I have Emma Emily and Anna Theresa the mother is shown as Mary!!

It is a real brick wall! thanks Liz

[Madyliz]

Hi Mutley
I do have a tree on Ancestry called Tolouse and have got quite a few indexes and records I have sydneys marriage he married a girl with a very unusual surname so that was very useful. I didn't have his birth though so will follow up that one, though as I am doing this for my bro in law will get him to order cert (he doesn't like spending money at all!!! lol)
Thank you for the info very grateful , wonder where this leaves us with Bohemia cos that was on one census!!
Liz

[Mutley]

Hi Mutley
I do have a tree on Ancestry called Tolouse and have got quite a few indexes and records I have sydneys marriage he married a girl with a very unusual surname so that was very useful. I didn't have his birth though so will follow up that one, though as I am doing this for my bro in law will get him to order cert (he doesn't like spending money at all!!! lol)
Thank you for the info very grateful , wonder where this leaves us with Bohemia cos that was on one census!!
Liz

It may be an error of the census enumerator. He has just put 'do'. If Gustav was speaking in a guttural German accent and trying to say an English parish name, the enumerator may just have given up trying to understand and stuck down a 'do' or Gustav did not fully understand the question. It happens. ;)

I am also not sure about that 1881 census for Gustav. No first name is filled in and gardener to hairdresser/chiropodist??
Trouble is I cannot see anything better and certainly cannot see a marriage. :(

[valg]

Hi Valg
yes the more I think about it you are probably correct but this makes it even more difficult to find birth records? for instance, and it would explain the discrepancy between Marie and Mary ,,, though on the two birth certs I have Emma Emily and Anna Theresa the mother is shown as Mary!!

It is a real brick wall! thanks Liz

The Marie/Mary is quite a common transcription era, if the couple did not speak or write good English Marie would prob sound like Mary so I wouldnt worry to much about that.

[valg]

Gustav Sydney Hoffman's birth is registered in Islington in June 1888. 1b/322

I know the certs are expensive but this would at least give you an address for them to help narrow down the possible marriage area for mum and dad.

The full details of his marriage in 1917 are on Ancestry if you want them.

A marriage is around 1886, they probably met and married before coming to the Uk so an overseas marriage is still more likely,

[valg]

Hi again
Sorry finger slip eldest child born 1888!! not 81.

Recently been in contact with son of 2nd child,(his mum died a couple of months after he was born) and he has details of Marie(Mary) Helm 1881 census living at 45 Charlotte st London father christian and mother Bernadine. He seems to think Gustav was living in Somerset place London shown as a lodger and a gardener in 1881 census but only has notes about it and I am not sure it is the correct gustav Hoffman.

I also was confused by the Bohemia reference but have since discovered that parts of Paris were known as Bohemia and also areas of London and quite often put down as an area where living, again not sure how correct this is,, I remain open minded . In later census they are shown as born in Germany and Austria respectively and Sydney is shown as being born in Kings Cross. I have not confirmed this. As there are so many of them I have not as yet sent for any more certs for the children( to expensive!) as initially I am looking for Lily Hoffman who I know went to australia... this maybe another thread later on!!


As to the pastry chef I have recently found a daughter of the youngest child in Australia and she said her father had told her thisfact.
We hope that by finding the marriage cert a lot of things may make more sense.

thanks for your help
Liz

This is not your Marie Helm as the one living with mother Bernadine is still living with her mother on the 1891 census, your Marie was married with 2 children by then.

[Madyliz]

Thanks Valg wow that changes things, glad you have found that out I didn't follow it up cos beleived what I had been told, just goes to show, verify everything. thank you very much, will have to start looking again now..Liz

[Madyliz]

Valg just noticed you are in Australia so am going to start a new thread on one of the sisters a Lily Hoffman think she went to Australia Liz

[valg]

Valg just noticed you are in Australia so am going to start a new thread on one of the sisters a Lily Hoffman think she went to Australia Liz

HI Madyliz, if I can help I will but haven't had much to do with Australian records as all my Ancestors are in the UK, I migrated here in 1956 from Manchester.