Lost - One Greatgrandmother

[obdavies]

I'm stumped with tracking my wife's great grandmother.

I have the grandmother's birth certificate and wedding certificate and these tell me that my wife's grandmother Ellen Lee was born 25 February 1866 in Charles Street, Middlesbrough to parents Richard Lee and Ellen Lee (formerly Davies).

On my wife's grandmother's marriage certificate of the 24 June 1883 it records that Richard Lee is deceased and that his occupation was 'labourer'.

The first problem is that when I search for the great grandmother's marriage certificate, the only wedding found between Richard Lee and Ellen Davies is in Shrewsbury 1849 (Shrewsbury 18 228). When I look them up in the 1871 census (Source Citation: Class: RG10; Piece: 4896; Folio: 118; Page: 17) I find that the mother has an estimated d.o.b. 1834 and the father's estimated d.o.b 1837. Making them 15 and 12 respectively at the time of their presumed wedding. This I very seriously doubt.

The second problem is that the 1871 census records the mother's birth as 1834 in Wigan, Lancashire. I can not only not find an IGI record of an Ellen Davies then and there (the nearest is an 1829 for an Ellen Davis).

The third problem is that I can find neither father nor mother of Ellen Lee after 1871 in any census. I think I have Richard Lee in 1851 (Source Citation: Class: HO107; Piece: 2179; Folio: 312; Page: 18) but I'm not certain and I certainly can't find Ellen Davies in any census from 1841 to 1861.


I,ve tried baptism records, parish records, old uncle Tom Cobley and all, without success. Can anyone help move this forward?

Owen

[geneius]

Hello

Can you confirm Ellen's age on the marriage ceretificate, if b 1866: m 1883 she was 17 years......is this correct

Did she marry John COWLEY...only marriage I can find that fits the above

geneius

[Dizzy600]

Could Ellen Davies have been born overseas? Maybe her father was in the Army - just a thought.

[obdavies]

Yes, Ellen is 17 and her husband, John Cowell, is 23 on their marriage certificate.

Owen

[obdavies]

Dizzy600, the father Richard Lee is recorded as a 'labourer' on her 1866 birth certificate, a 'labourer in works' on the 1871 census and a deceased 'labourer' on her 1883 masrriage certificate, si no indication of having been in the services.

Owen

[geneius]

1881 RG11 4896 16 25

25 Hvelock Street Stocktom
Ellen LEE 15 Dom Serv in the h/hold Ann JAMES washerwoman

I agree with your 1871 census
RG10 4896 118 17
LEE Richard b 1837 Liverpool
LEE Ellen b 1834 ? Wigenhall Lancashire
LEE Elizabeth b 1860 " "
LEE Richard b 1862 " "
LEE Ellen b 1864? Middlesborough
LEE john b 1871 Middlesborough

Conclude Richard & Ellen married <1860 in Lancashire

Ellen on the1891 census suggests her age is 30 giving rise to a birth year of 1861!

geneius

[obdavies]

Thanks Geneius, you can see what a mystery this family is. What's the reference for Ellen you have found on the 1991 census? It still leaves the father Richard Lee being 12 years old on his marriage. Where are the parents on any post 1871 census? Where's Ellen Lee pre 1871?

Owen

[obdavies]

Forgot to mention, I have two Richard Lee deaths that might solve the mystery of where he is posy 1871. Deaths Dec 1874 Lee Richard 38 Stokesley 9d 399 or Deaths Jun 1875 LEE Richard 37 Stockton 10a 47
Both are towns within 5 miles of Middlesbrough, where their daughter was born in 1866.

Owen

[obdavies]

If that's the same 1891 census that I'd found Source Citation: Class: RG12; Piece: 4013; Folio 98; Page 6. then I have my doubts as Ellen gives her d.o.b. as 1857, 9 years different to previos census'.

Owen

[geneius]

Checking Lancashirebmd,org.uk ( prefix www,) there is a Richard b 1862 Westleigh Wigan & Leigh
also Elizabeth 1860

Marriage Ellen DAVIES to THOMAS LEA 1860 St Peter Liverpool
( probably a red herring)

Will go back to your replies...i like the admission and the signing of your name Owen!

[obdavies]

I like your thinking Geneius, Lee - Lea. Certainly the mother Ellen Lee (Davies) couldn't write as she "made her mark" on her daughter's 1866 birth certificate. If Richard couldn't read or write either, likely pre 1870, then Lee, Lea and Leigh might be interpretations of what he was saying to record keepers. Only problem with the above marriage is that it's Richard Lee not Thomas.

Owen

[geneius]

1891 RG 12 4013 98 6
71 Snowden Street

courtsey and copyright TNA

I know Thomas isn't his name but when you are clutching at straws!

geneius

[geneius]

It's late and I need to re thing thisout, so back to the drawing board tomorrow, unless someone comes up with the answer overnight.....

Night Owen
geneius

[obdavies]

Thanks Geneius, the right family came up when I entered those numbers, but this is the daughter Ellen Lee (Cowell) and I have her census' post post 1871 (all of them up to 1901). Its the mother Ellen Lee (Davies) I'm seeking in any census other than 1871 (and she should be in them all) and Richard Lee in any census other then 1851 and 1871. Plus a marriage between both of them where they're not 15 and 12 respectively (that's if they actually married).

I guess I might have to invest in a certificate for the 1849 marriage, but I don't think 12 year old boys were allowed to marry even in the mid nineteenth century. Plus why would they go from a 1849 marriage to apparently their only child in 1866, a gap of 17 years?

Owen

[geneius]

Forgot to mention, or Deaths Jun 1875 LEE Richard 37 Stockton 10a 47
Owen

This is the death cert of Richard LEE, if you look at the census the family were in Stockton.

[geneius]

1881 RG
64 Argyle Street LInthorp Middlesboro'
LEE Ellen 37 H w states Penserton Lancs
LEE Elizabeth 20 D Penserton Lancs think its probably Pemberton which is Wigan Lancs
LEE Richard 16 S Guisboro
LEE Annie 8 D Middlesboro
LEE James 8 S Middlesboro

LEE John b 1871 could be in the Industrial School at Linthorpe RG11 4857 81 45

[geneius]

FOUND some of your DAVIES family ( I think) assuming the above is correct and Ellen (nee DAVIES) LEE had twins, looking for these on the 1891 census shows them b Yorkshire living in Pemberton, with Ellen's nephew?

RG 12 3064 68 31 Pemberton Wigan (St John)
DAVIES John b1861 Pemberton
DAVIES Jane 1862
DAVIES Elizabeth 1883
DAVIES John Robert 1886
DAVIES Job Lawrence 1887
DAVIES Thomas 1887
DAVIES Albert 1890 all b Pemberton Lancashire
LEE James 1873 Coal Miner Yorkshire
LEE Annie 1873 cotton spinner Yorkshire


courtsey & copyright TNA

[geneius]

1861 RG 2783
Hardmans Rowe Pemberton Ellen could be flexi with ther age.......

DAVIES Ellen 24 unmarried
DAVIES Elizabeth 1 week


1851 H107 2200 new Street Pemberton
This may tie in with John....

courtsey & copyright TNA

My guess is that Ellen was an unmarried mother and married Richard LEE post 1861...let me have your thoughts

geneius

[obdavies]

Well done Geneius (living up to your name), it's almost definitely her judging by the children. Though how you found it, when she has taken 10 years off her age and added 3 years on to Richards, I don't know.

Thanks also for the death of Richard (though I should have figured that one out from the two possibilities I had).

Owen

[obdavies]

I just finished thanking you for 1881 and when I pressed the 'send' I found you've traced the 1891. Star.

Owen

[obdavies]

Geneius, I don't yet have Ellen Davies parents so I don't know the relationship to John & Jane in the 1891 census. I'll just check out the 1861 information you've identified and that may lead me to them and establish the John & Jane relationship.

Owen

[obdavies]

Geneius, from the looks of the 1851 census you identified you've found the parents as well. I'm slightly uncertain about Elizabeth (1851) as to whether she's the daughter of Elizabeth (1804) as recorded in the cesus or the daughter of 19 year old Ann or 16 year old Ellen. I suppose a daughter to a 46 year old woman and a 62 year old man isn't impossible, just improbable in the mid 1800s.

Ellen's daughter Elizabeth (1860) is almost certainly not the same Elizabeth but, given that Ellen was 10 years out with her own birth between 1871 and 1881, it just raises that doubt. Could the two Elizabeths (1850 & 1860) be the same and that would make her an illigitimate daughter of Ellen who then left with her mother?

Owen

[obdavies]

I still can't see where John (1861) & Jane (1862) from the 1891 census come in to it. I'll have to track Ann (1831) to see if John is her son.

Owen

[obdavies]

Geneius, Ann has proven much easier to trace as she is reasonable consistent in her data. I have her in 1841 (HO107; Piece 522; Book: 18; Civil Parish: Wigan; County: Lancashire; Enumeration District: 7; Folio: 12; Page: 16; Line: 3;) that also gives me Ellen aged 3 (=1848 another d.o.b). I've also got Ann in 1861 with ason Thomas but no husband (RG9; Piece: 2783; Folio: 52; Page: 13) and 1871 with 3 children Thomas 20, John 10 and Elizabeth 3, but still no husband. Quite a family? But (I was always taught not to start a sentence with that) no clue to Elizabeth (1851).

Owen

[obdavies]

Ann is finally married in the 1881 census (RG11; Piece: 3780; Folio: 96; Page: 27;) to a Richard Moss. John and Elizabeth are still with her but still called Davies so not adopted. I think this John must be the one that Ellen is lodging with in 1891 so that's that mystery solved and again you're 100% correct with your guess, he's her nephew.

Owen

[Mona]

Looks like Ellen Davies baptism is on LancsOPC: St John, Pemberton
Ellen DAVIES, 3d daughter of John and Elizabeth. Baptised 9th April 1837, born 2 Feb 1837. Abode Pembertion, Father occupation: Miner

[geneius]

I still can't see where John (1861) & Jane (1862) from the 1891 census come in to it. I'll have to track Ann (1831) to see if John is her son.

Owen

Assuming the 1881 census info is correct and I now feel certain it is, Ellen LEE is with twins James & Annie b 1873 Middlesborough Yorkshire ( pres born before Richard died in 1875) , the 'twins' appear on the 1891 census in Pemberton with the DAVIES family. Logic tells me this is their mothers family / relatives...why else would they move as 18 years old from Middlesboro to Wigan?

g

[geneius]

Ann is finally married in the 1881 census (RG11; Piece: 3780; Folio: 96; Page: 27;) to a Richard Moss. John and Elizabeth are still with her but still called Davies so not adopted. I think this John must be the one that Ellen is lodging with in 1891 so that's that mystery solved and again you're 100% correct with your guess, he's her nephew.

Owen

Adoption as we understand it didnot come in until 1927(?) sometimes children assumed the name of their step father, it would be easier living in a household with everyone having the same surname...
...as in Elizabeth b DAVIES 1861, yet shown as LEE on the 1871 & 1881 census! Her marriage ( assuming she married) could be under either DAVIES or LEE

I am still tring to work out who Richard LEE is b 1862, he could be registered as a DAVIES....

[geneius]

Cheers Mona that helps at least we now know Ellen has been flexi with her age on soem of the census returns....

All we are left with is Ricahrd LEE b Liverpool1837 per 1871 RG10 4896 118 17

I'm lost with this I will have to draw the tree .....

geneius

[obdavies]

Mona's contribution raises a point, the family tree goes Ann (1831), then Ellen (1834) and finally Elizabeth (1850), how does Ellen become "the third daughter" of John and Elizabeth? Who is missing? I now have the family back to the 1841 census when Ann is the oldest child aged 10. Did the first, unknown, daughter die?

Owen

[obdavies]

I think I've found Ann's birth on IGI.
ANN DAVIS Female
Birth: 19 NOV 1830
Christening: 15 JAN 1831 Wigan, Lancashire, England
Parents:
Father: JOHN DAVIS
Mother: ELIZABETH

Right year, right parents, almost right place Wigan instead of Pemberton, Any thoughts?

Owen

[geneius]

Yes i think this is correct, I cannot get on to the IGI...maintenance?

1841 H107 0522
New Street Wigan
DAVIES John 50 Lab in coal
DAVIES elizabeth 35
DAVIES Anne 10
DAVIES Ellen 3

I cannot find Elizabeth

1851 H107 2200
New Street Pemberton
DAVIES John 63 Lab'r Chelsea Pensioner* Orell
DAVIES Elizabeth Orrell
DAVIES Anne 18
DAVIES Ellen 13
DAVIES Elizabeth 20 children all b Pemberton


Ellen is the 3d as shown on her baptism entry
1861 sees sisters Ellen with baby Elizabeth and Ann with baby John at Hardmans Row Pemberton
I cannot find oldies who may have died or sister Elizabeth who may have married!
* you need to check Chelsea Pensioners listing that has recentkly gone on line!

now Richard LEE b Liverpool circa 1837/1838 died 1875 Stockton and is marriage to Ellen DAVIES

geneius

[obdavies]

Geneius, I did see the 'Chelsea Pensioner' claim in the 1851 census but I had discounted it as I thought the concept of a Chelsea Pensioner was that they gave up their army pension to live in the barracks type Chelsea Hospital. Am I wrong? Certainly John already lived in Lancashire in 1841 and 1851, not London.

Unfortunately the Chelsea Pensioner records seem to be on 'Find my Past' and I don't have a subscription so that will have to wait. Meanwhile, now that I have an indication that he had been in the Army prior to 1841, I'll follow that line to see if I can find him.

Owen

[geneius]

Morning O

John DAVIES b circa 1788 Orrell Lancashire d 1857 aged 64 Pemberton /Wigan ( Lancashirebmd.org.uk)

I think you need to look for his obit Wigan Examiner & Wigan Standard, Manchester Evening News and poss London Gazette ( and poss a grave) and get a few more facts about him before looking at The Chelsea Pensioners Listing ( not all are on FMP yet!, 2011 is final load on date)

Records will be at TNA WO 97

Check this site http://www.wlct.org/culture/heritage/fhistory.htm:hurray:

:mad2:I think you may need to re title your orig anquiry or post a new Thread for Richard LEE 1837 Liverpool - 1875 Stockton, stating the info you ahve on him and his family:mad2:

geneius

[obdavies]

What I have (I think) on Richard Lee is;
RICHARD LEE Male
Christening: 01 AUG 1836 Saint Peter, Liverpool, Lancashire, England
Father: RICHARD LEE
Mother: ELLEN

Death 1875 June Quarter Stockton Volume: 10a Page: 47

1851 HO107; Piece: 2179; Folio: 312; Page: 18

1871 RG10; Piece: 4896; Folio: 118; Page: 17

I'll try to find the 1841 and 1861 census. The 1841 should give me his parents as he would be 5 years old (he's alodger elsewhere in Liverpool by 1851). I'm inclined to discount the Sep 1849 marriage I'd found between Richard Lee & Ellen Davies (18 228) as, although both names are correct and this is the only marriage listed between these names) they would both be approximately 12 years old.

Owen

[obdavies]

I've found a Richard Lee b.abt 1834 in Liverpool who had moved to Wigan (near Pemberton where Ellen lived) by the 1841 census (HO107; Piece 522; Book: 19; Civil Parish: Wigan; County: Lancashire; Enumeration District: 2; Folio: 26; Page: 9; Line: 9;). What do you think, looks a good prospect?

Owen

[obdavies]

I forgot to add, the Richard Lee in the 1841 census above had parents Richard & Elizabeth (same as the IGI entry above).

Owen

[obdavies]

Cancel the two above, I just rushed into them without examining that, firstly the birthplace is just Lancashire not specifically Liverpool (though I entered that on the search I'd forgotten that the 1841 census just listed the county) and seconly the mother is Elizabeth rather than the Ellen of the IGI entry.

One other point, I had assumed that the later children of Ellen Davies, John, Annie and James were born in Middlesbrough. On searching the BMD for Stockton (Middlesbrough itself didn't become a registration district until 1875) there were none that really matched. However the Teesdale district (South Durham around Richmond) had three very close matches. Though we know she was in Yarm, Stockton in 1871. I'll look further.

Owen

[obdavies]

I think this one deserves a looking at;
Marriages Dec 1860
Davies Ellen Liverpool 8b 96
Lea Thomas Liverpool 8b 96

That's just what Jean recommended initially, Lee Lee, Leigh. Well done, if it pans out.

Owen