Probate - 66 years late!

[Wilkes_ml]

Thanks to the searchable index of the Probate Calenders (1861-1941) I have been searching for wills of non -immediate family and stumbled across this:

Probate 1924

Curnick Joseph of 12 Courland Grove Larkhill Lane, Clapham Surrey died 3 December 1857 Administration (with will) London 19 December to Harriet Ellen Curnick spinster. Effects £1000 Former grant P.R. 24 March 1858.

So, if the original grant was executed in 1858, what was happening in 1924? Would ordering the will from 1924 show anything different to the will obtained from 1858?

I'm tempted to see by ordering both, but don't really want to waste money on a whim!

Any thoughts?

[Wilkes_ml]

Harriet Ellen was Joseph's eldest grandchild from his only son Edward. Joseph's wife had passed away long before him prior to 1841. Harriet Ellen died in 1931.

[susan-y]

Michelle...

We can almost match that! My husband's maternal grandfather "ruled from the grave". His will could not be settled until his youngest child ( my late mother-in-law) died and it was a year after her death before I got the paperwork straightened around for my husband. That was in 2003 and grandfather died in 1939....64 years previously...

Sue

[Wilkes_ml]

His will could not be settled until his youngest child ( my late mother-in-law) died and it was a year after her death before I got the paperwork straightened around for my husband. That was in 2003 and grandfather died in 1939....64 years previously...

Sue

Is that because of conflicts within the family? I'm wondering if that was the problem with "my" family. (I say "my" as they aren't direct ancestors - Joseph was my ancestor's cousin)

I found the original probate of Joseph in 1858 at the Principle Registry, rather than the PCC, which means I can't instantly download it, but have ordered an estimate from the TNA. His executor in 1858 was Eliza Curnick. I only know of two Eliza Curnicks - both Joseph's nieces. One would have been 12 in 1858, the other would have been 25.

What confuses me is that it appears that the will was already dealt with in 1858, so why again in 1924?

Interestingly Joseph's grandaughter (who remained unmarried) also left a will in 1931 - by which time she was very wealthy - leaving £2429 which equates to about £80,000 now.

[Wilkes_ml]

His executor in 1858 was Eliza Curnick. I only know of two Eliza Curnicks - both Joseph's nieces. One would have been 12 in 1858, the other would have been 25.

Doh! Silly me - Joseph had a second wife - Eliza! So it would have been his wife that was the executor of his will.

[susan-y]

Is that because of conflicts within the family?

No, not conflicts. From what I understand from my late mil he was a miserable old man and needed to control everyone and everything and didn't want to part with what he had amassed, even in death. He set it up so everyone got a pittance each time one of his children died.... I can't remember all the details but it all came down to not being settled until hubby's mom passed away.. the money was held in trust by the government until that time. I do remember my mother in law writing to them twice a year and she got an "allowance" from the interest... not very much, but it was hers and she made sure she got it!! The last lttle bit was to be split between her surviving children and didn't include nieces and nephews...they got their share when their parent had passed on....
It was a good lesson for us... we made very simple wills after experiencing that!

Sue

[Wilkes_ml]

I guess I'll have to wait until I get the will from 1858 and see what it says.

I shouldn't have thought it would be too complicated - He had his wife Eliza (who I believe died 1861-1871) and his only son Edward Curnick who died in 1908, leaving his daughter Harriett Ellen and son Frederick Charles executors of his estate.

It's a shame my direct line were not as wealthy!

[Kerrywood]

Probate 1924

Curnick Joseph of 12 Courland Grove Larkhill Lane, Clapham Surrey died 3 December 1857 Administration (with will) London 19 December to Harriet Ellen Curnick spinster. Effects £1000 Former grant P.R. 24 March 1858.

So, if the original grant was executed in 1858, what was happening in 1924? Would ordering the will from 1924 show anything different to the will obtained from 1858?

First, the 1924 Calendar entry is not for a Will but for Letters of Administration (with the will attached). So no will went to probate in that year.

Possible scenario ...

When Joseph CURNICK died in 1857 no will could be found, so someone applied for (and was granted) the administration of his estate on 24 March 1858. That would be the Former Grant P.R. 1858. as listed in the Calendar.

Years later his will was found, and a new probate applied for. As a result (and possibly after protracted discussions!) a new grant of administration was made to his descendant Harriet Ellen Curnick, on 19 December 1924.

This is just a suggestion. If it's correct, it would mean that the will is attached only to the 1924 grant. The 1858 grant will simply be an administration and probably not worth bothering with -- though you may want to see to whom it was awarded. Does the index to Death Duty Registers at Find My Past help with that point at all?


I found the original probate of Joseph in 1858 at the Principle Registry, rather than the PCC, which means I can't instantly download it ... but have ordered an estimate from the TNA.
I must have missed a trick because I'm not sure what you have ordered here? Wills proved after 1857 are not normally held at TNA, though there may be documentation associated with probate disputes etc. What did you find in the catalogue? :confused5:

[Wilkes_ml]

. What did you find in the catalogue? :confused5:

I followed the instructions from another thread posted on this forum some time ago - just need to recall which one it was - but it gave very detailed instructions how to find the batch containing the correct folio number in IR26 after locating the folio from the reference in IR27 (the death duty registers that are on FMP). The person on the thread mentioned that if the folio number was missing from the IR27 index, then it meant there was no will - just administration and not worth bothering with. This implied that a folio number meant there was a will, or something!

So the death duty register for 1858 gives a folio number of 211,

so by searching TNA catalogue for IR27 date 1858-1858 and * for keywords, it gives a list of batches, which I then narrowed down to get the correct batch reference that should contain folio number 211!!

I hope that makes sense!

Anyway, I just asked for an estimate for the section relating to Joseph CURNICK (you have the option of ordering quote for whole lot or just the bit you need).

[Wilkes_ml]

This was the thread with the instructions (http://www.british-genealogy.com/forums/showthread.php/13468-Death-Duty-Registers-Index-what-can-it-tell-me)

[Kerrywood]

Ah, now I'm with you. Thanks for explaining.

As you say, the Death Duty Register (DDR) index does indicate that there was a will in 1858. At this date there are separate registers (and indexes) for Wills and for Administrations, and the entry for Joseph CURNICK is indeed in the Wills index. So please ignore my earlier suggestion that the 1858 grant might have been for administration only, and sorry if I misled you.

The Calendar entry for the 1858 will can't be found on Ancestry, since their database doesn't cover that year.

The folio number that you found in the DDR index (211) refers to the entry in the DDR, not to the will itself. So the estimate you've requested from TNA is for an extract from the DDR register, not for the will.

However, recent experience shows that TNA will no longer supply copies of DDR entries via online ordering, and I think you will probably get a negative response. The limitations of TNA's record copying service as it currently stands are explained here (http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/recordcopying/) ("we will not search ... within any document for an individual, unless the catalogue description indicates that the file is for that particular person only").

As regards the grant of administration recorded in the Calendar for 1924, I wonder if this could relate to a second will, which revoked the first, but was only found years afterwards? Just another guess, and probably no better than my previous one!

It's very intriguing, and I think I would want to have a look at both wills. You should be able to order copies by post from York (http://www.hmcourts-service.gov.uk/cms/1226.htm#details) in the usual way, or by visiting one of the probate registries, if you have access.

Hope I haven't muddied the waters even further.

[Wilkes_ml]

Thanks Kerrywood, that has made everything a lot clearer! It's a shame that York doesn't take online orders the same way that the GRO does with birth certificates! I'll update you once I have received something from York.