Ferdinand Darrer and Mary Ellen McCusker

[Colin Rowledge]

This enquiry has possibly been posted somewhere already by A.N.Other, however I can't find it. I'm looking for a marriage between Ferdinand Darrer [born Austria 1871] and Maria McCusker? born Belfast 1880]. I found them on the 1911 census as married 10 years, with 3 living children [out of 5 births] They were married in Belfast. They were R.C.
I have the info on the 3 living children from Family Search [all born Belfast] and were all R.C as well. I am looking to find information on who Ferdinand's father was and where he may have been born as well as when he arrived in Ireland.

Any ideas on how to proceed would be appreciated

Thanks
Colin

[Elwyn Soutter]

The marriage certificate should give you Ferdinand's father's name. There is an entry in the BDM indexes for a Ferdinand Darrer who m in Belfast in the last quarter of 1901, which looks promising. There is no matching entry for Maria McCusker, so either her name is not quite accurate or it's not the right marriage. But if you think it is the right marriage, you could order a copy of the certificate. See www.groni.gov.uk on how to obtain copies.


Elwyn

[Colin Rowledge]

The marriage certificate should give you Ferdinand's father's name. There is an entry in the BDM indexes for a Ferdinand Darrer who m in Belfast in the last quarter of 1901, which looks promising. There is no matching entry for Maria McCusker, so either her name is not quite accurate or it's not the right marriage. But if you think it is the right marriage, you could order a copy of the certificate. See www.groni.gov.uk on how to obtain copies.

Elwyn

Hello Elwyn
Thank you for the info. I've reviewed the site but cannot find how to locate the indexes. The maiden name McCusker could be wrong as my wife's mother died when my wife was 18 months old.

From the 1911 Irish census, Maria Darrer was living with Ferdinand and their 3 children. In the residence as well, was an unmarried relative, Bella McCusker who was of an age to be Maria's mother, so that is why I've indicated the name "McCusker".

To oder the marriage cert. I apparently need the spouse's maiden name. If I show "McCusker" and it is incorrect, have I lost the 12 quid I've paid?

Cheers
Colin

[v.wells]

Colin - take the information from IGI and apply to PRONI for a marriage cert. Give them as much information as you can but leave out the bride's name, since you don't know for sure.

[Peter Goodey]

I've reviewed the site but cannot find how to locate the indexes.

On the Familysearch/Recordsearch pilot.

http://pilot.familysearch.org/recordsearch/start.html#p=collectionDetails&c=fs%3A1408347

Shouldn't you get the birth certificate of one of the children first? Otherwise you won't know whether you've got the right marriage.

[grisel]

hi
That marriage is on the Ulster Historical Foundation's free index, spouse's surname McCusker - but not Maria. You can download the full details there (tho I don't know if it is cheaper going via GRONI). The index gives Ferdinand's father's name also as Ferdinand.

I think the cost is around £4 as I remember.

[grisel]

Also from UHF - her name was Mary Ann and her father's first name was Thomas

[grisel]

There is a possibility in the 1901 census There is a Mary McCusker servant at 16 Donegall Place, East Side ( St Anne's Ward , Belfast, Antrim). She seems to be a servant in a hotel run by Emile Weisse. No Ferdinand but a Frederick Denver b Austria. Worth looking at.
Sorry don't know how to give references for the Irish census

[Colin Rowledge]

Colin - take the information from IGI and apply to PRONI for a marriage cert. Give them as much information as you can but leave out the bride's name, since you don't know for sure.

Hi Vanessa.
More info has come since your post. I think I've found the marriage stuff on Irish Family History Foundation site, but cannot find a birth for my wife's mother - Josephine Patricia Darrer born 1919.

I used the IGI [Family Search site] and have all the relevant info but on PRONI I can't find an order form. Do I send an email with all the info which should eliminate the search fee of 15.50 quid, but the I cannot determine what else may be required and how to pay from Canada. Have you ordered anything from them?

Colin

[Colin Rowledge]

There is a possibility in the 1901 census There is a Mary McCusker servant at 16 Donegall Place, East Side ( St Anne's Ward , Belfast, Antrim). She seems to be a servant in a hotel run by Emile Weisse. No Ferdinand but a Frederick Denver b Austria. Worth looking at.
Sorry don't know how to give references for the Irish census

Hi grisel
Thanks for this as well as post #6 & 7. These, I think, are the right folks [albeit with transcription errors or compilation errors by the person completing the return at the hotel].

Have viewed the IFHF [which I think is aka UHF] have registered but no response to my enquiry as to how to purchase credits. Have you used thi site and bought credits and if so, how?

Cheers
Colin

[Colin Rowledge]

Have spent some time [after the 1911 census] trying to find death of Ferdinand and Mary Ann, but with no luck. Are records incomplete after the 1920's online? If so, how do we find them -- IGI Family Search hasn't helped as yet [but then I could be in the wrong Index] and FreeBMD for England and Wales has nothing, so I assume they both died in Ireland.

Thanks

[arthurk]

Colin - if it's not too late, you might want to order the marriage certificate from the General Register Office of the Republic of Ireland. They can supply copies of civil registration entries for the whole of Ireland before 1922, when the island was divided into Northern Ireland and the Republic. The advantage of ordering from them is that they offer a cheaper alternative - an uncertified copy from the register rather than a full-blown certificate.

The partition in 1922 may be why you are having difficulty finding deaths: I'm not fully up to speed on which sites contain what, but if they died after that in the north, they won't appear on sites based solely on the Republic's indexes. There are quite a lot of sites with Irish data and indexes, so I easily get confused, but I'm pretty sure I did once find one with the post-1922 NI ones - possibly Emerald Ancestors?

Arthur

[grisel]

Hi Colin



Have viewed the IFHF [which I think is aka UHF] have registered but no response to my enquiry as to how to purchase credits. Have you used thi site and bought credits and if so, how?




I used the site some time ago. I registered with the UHF itself (not with the IHF) and bought credits to download a birth and a marriage which I had found in their index. I think the UHF is independent but affiliated to the IHF, but mainly covers Antrim and Down. If you visit the UHF site directly you can do the free search without any logging in at all, but if you visit it via IHF you seem to have to log in first. It is a bit confusing!

Sorry I've not ordered anything from GRONI so can't help there.

[Colin Rowledge]

Well, folks, I've ordered my 1st certificate which, if found, will cost 12 Euro's - including postage. If found, it will be sent in 5 working days, so apparently similar to GRO.

It was the birth certificate for Josephine Patricia Darrer - my wife's mother.

Now to wait and see what happens

[Colin Rowledge]

Well, folks, the certificate arrived. As noted, it was ordered June 29, issued July 1 and received July 8. Similarly another ordered from the GRO was ordered June 24, issued June 28 and received July 8. All in all a successful attempt. :thumbsup:

Now to order the marriage certificate for Ferdinand and Mary Ann.

Colin

[Colin Rowledge]

[QUOTE=Colin Rowledge;412770

Now to order the marriage certificate for Ferdinand and Mary Ann.

Colin[/QUOTE]

If only I could remember where the site was that had the on-line order form!!! :oops::yikes:

[Colin Rowledge]

Does anyone know where I might be able to find references to BMD's in Ireland after 1920?. The Irish Family History Foundation [IFHF] indicates on their website that very few records remain after 1920. I have found on the Family Search - Ireland Civil Registration Indeses 1845-1958 all the reference info. for a marriage but no spouse. I know that one of the children was born in 1946 and from the same index, have determined a mother's maiden name, but would really like to have details of the marriage.

Is this possible?

[AmandaDarrer]

Hi Colin, I have just come accross this thread as i am also researching Ferdinand Darrer. He was my great great grandfather. It looks as though you have stoped posting here but I hope you get notification as I would love to speak to you about him and our family history. Amanda.

[Colin Rowledge]

Hi Amanda - I have sent you 2 private messages. Hope to hear from you soon

Colin

[Colin Rowledge]

Well, folks, the certificate arrived. As noted, it was ordered June 29, issued July 1 and received July 8. Similarly another ordered from the GRO was ordered June 24, issued June 28 and received July 8. All in all a successful attempt. :thumbsup:

Now to order the marriage certificate for Ferdinand and Mary Ann.

Colin

A long time ago I got the marriage certificate which provided some useful stuff. Ferdinand married Mary Ellen on 25 December 1901 in the Belfact R.C. church. Her father was Thomas.

My wife's middle name is Ellen [after her grandmother].

Mary Ellen was baptised - sadly no date of baptism was on the index - but it confirmed her date of birth - 30 January 1880. Parents were Thomas and Matilda - formely Devlin. I would love to find the date of baptism.


Between the time of their marriage and the outbreak of World War 1 they had 5 children. 1 died shortly after birth [1904]. During the conflict, Ferdinand - being Austrian - was interned in a camp on the Isle of Man.

After his release - a daughter was born 20 March 1919. This daughter is my wife's mother. She mariied 22 December 1938. She died 9 November 1949 in Wales.

We know that at the outbreak of World War 2, May Ellen was widow. Some time before his death Ferdinand and Mary Ellen took a trip to Austria but we don't know exactly when or why. As a result of this trip and her status as widow of an Austrian, she was considered for internment during this particular war. Later at a hearing she was deemed to be of no risk and allowed to remain in the community.

We are now seeking information on their deaths We do not know where they were living during the 1930's [and later] but it is possible that it was either in Co. Antrim or Co. Cork.

Appreciate any help

Colin

[lesleys]

Do you have the certificate of exemption from Internment - this wold give an address 1939-45
Reference: HO 396/15/148
Title: Home Office: Aliens Department: Internees Index: Internees at Liberty in UK (Please note that the people listed in these records may not all be Jewish.)
Description: Mary Ellen DARRER, Date of Birth: 30-01-1880, Place of Birth: Moira, Co. Down, Northern Ireland
Date(s): 1939 to 1942
Community: Jewish Community
Theme: Settling (experiences of living in England)
Format: Text
Access: Available on microfilm at the Public Record Office, Kew.
download available here :http://movinghere.org.uk/

also is this a relative (from the National Archive) :Registry of Shipping and Seamen: Central Register of Seamen: R620264 DARRER R G P 19/09/1938 BELFAST

[Elwyn Soutter]

We are now seeking information on their deaths We do not know where they were living during the 1930's [and later] but it is possible that it was either in Co. Antrim or Co. Cork.



I can’t see any likely deaths listed for Cork. Suspect therefore that they may have died in Co. Antrim. Deaths 1922 onwards in Northern Ireland are not on-line anywhere. You need to contact GRONI in Belfast to look them up for you (or go in person).

http://www.nidirect.gov.uk/gro

As it happens I expect to be in GRONI tomorrow, so I’ll have a look for you to see if they are in the indexes. If they are, that’ll at least give you the date and registration district.

[Colin Rowledge]

Do you have the certificate of exemption from Internment - this wold give an address 1939-45
Reference: HO 396/15/148
Title: Home Office: Aliens Department: Internees Index: Internees at Liberty in UK (Please note that the people listed in these records may not all be Jewish.)
Description: Mary Ellen DARRER, Date of Birth: 30-01-1880, Place of Birth: Moira, Co. Down, Northern Ireland
Date(s): 1939 to 1942
Community: Jewish Community
Theme: Settling (experiences of living in England)
Format: Text
Access: Available on microfilm at the Public Record Office, Kew.
download available here :http://movinghere.org.uk/

also is this a relative (from the National Archive) :Registry of Shipping and Seamen: Central Register of Seamen: R620264 DARRER R G P 19/09/1938 BELFAST

What a wonderful find, Lesley.

I didn't know such such a record existed. The early information is definitely the right lady and I would love to know more, but how?

As for the 2nd person you mentioned, I don't have an R.G.P. Darrer in the tree. Does the reference - 19/09/1938 BELFAST - shed any light on this person?

Can't make it to Kew personally, but is it possible that others may make efforts on my behalf, to view these documents? I would be forever grateful.

Colin

[Colin Rowledge]

I can't see any likely deaths listed for Cork. Suspect therefore that they may have died in Co. Antrim. Deaths 1922 onwards in Northern Ireland are not on-line anywhere. You need to contact GRONI in Belfast to look them up for you (or go in person).

http://www.nidirect.gov.uk/gro

As it happens I expect to be in GRONI tomorrow, so I’ll have a look for you to see if they are in the indexes. If they are, that’ll at least give you the date and registration district.

Hi Elwyn, that is most generous of you.

If nothing shows there, what do you suggest I do next to widen the search paremeters?

Colin

[lesleys]

What a wonderful find, Lesley.

I didn't know such such a record existed. The early information is definitely the right lady and I would love to know more, but how?

As for the 2nd person you mentioned, I don't have an R.G.P. Darrer in the tree. Does the reference - 19/09/1938 BELFAST - shed any light on this person?

Can't make it to Kew personally, but is it possible that others may make efforts on my behalf, to view these documents? I would be forever grateful.

Colin

if you click on the link and in the search box enter Darrer it takes you to the page I quoted then you have the option to download the image of the certificate which does have an address on .

As for the seaman the only way to get more info would be at the National Archive. what I posted is all that the catalogue says

[Colin Rowledge]

Hi Elwyn, that is most generous of you.

If nothing shows there, what do you suggest I do next to widen the search paremeters?

Colin

Hi Elwyn.

Just to bring you up to date:

Shortly before/after the outbreak of W.W. 2 she was questioned as a FEMALE ENEMY ALIEN. She was exempted as of 7 November 1939.

Her address - 142 Haypark Ave. Belfast, Northen Ireland

Her occupation - Housewife

Since there is no indictment of her spouse, I have presumed she was widowed at the time.

Is my reasoning logical?

Colin

[lesleys]

My grandparents were in a similar situation -. He was German and had been interred in WWI. As by 1939 he was 70, they both had exemption certificates in WW2. So, I suspect if Frederick was still alive he was not living in Belfast.

[Colin Rowledge]

To bring this thread up to date here are the facts after the end of of W.W. 1:
1] Ferdinand Darrer was released from Internment and returned to his family at Haypark Cottages, Belfast, Nothern Ireland and resumed his life as a Restaurant Owner.

2] Their 6th child - my wife's mother - was born at Haypark Cottages, Belfast on 20 March 1919.

3] Ferdinand and Mary Ellen Darrer made a visit to Austria arriving 12 August 1921 and returned to northern Ireland 21 September 1921.

4] Mary Ellen was granted Exemption from Internment on 7 November 1939. Her address was 142 Haypark Avenue, Belfast. She was aged 59.


My wife is not certain but has been given to understand the following:

1] Her grandfather was neither interned nor exempted as he was deceased prior to the outbreak of W.W. 2

2] Her grandmother may have died sometime prior to her birth and was given the name Ellen as her middle name in memory of her grandmother.


So what we are now attempting to do is find out details of their deaths - where and when? and also - where are they buried?

Colin

[Elwyn Soutter]

Colin,

Ferdinand Darrer’s death was registered in Newtownards Co Down 11.1.1944. Aged 72. Ref D/1944/196/1024/29/207

Mary Ellen Darrer died 5.5.1943 Belfast aged 63.
D/1943/57/1007/80/369.

I also noted the death of Joseph Gerard Darrer aged 50 in Belfast 20.3.1964. I assume he may be part of the same family.
D/1964/70/1007/3/393.

Hopefully that will help you take your research a bit further forward. You can order the certs on-line from GRONI for £15 per cert. They are usually dispatched the following day.

http://www.nidirect.gov.uk/gro

[Colin Rowledge]

Colin,

Ferdinand Darrer’s death was registered in Newtownards Co Down 11.1.1944. Aged 72. Ref D/1944/196/1024/29/207

Mary Ellen Darrer died 5.5.1943 Belfast aged 63.
D/1943/57/1007/80/369.

I also noted the death of Joseph Gerard Darrer aged 50 in Belfast 20.3.1964. I assume he may be part of the same family.
D/1964/70/1007/3/393.

Hopefully that will help you take your research a bit further forward. You can order the certs on-line from GRONI for £15 per cert. They are usually dispatched the following day.

http://www.nidirect.gov.uk/gro


Thanks Elwyn

This pretty much closes the book on Ferdinand. If you [or others] need to know why - please add to this thread.

His wife is a different kettle of fish.

Colin