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Scottie
08-05-2005, 3:24 PM
I am asking on behalf of a friend for information on the whereabouts of James Martin born circa 1831 in Shoreditch and his wife Elizabeth Dick born 1840 also in Shoreditch. They must have married about 1857. and had at least one son born in Shoreditch. I am also seeking Elizabeth's sister Harriet born 1833 who married Henry Kirtland before 1860 also in Shoreditch. I would like to know if they were in Shoreditch in 1861 and 1871. I know the Martins were in Birmingham in 1871 but wonder if they had gone there in 1861 or were still in Shoreditch.
Trish
08-05-2005, 4:23 PM
...also seeking Elizabeth's sister Harriet born 1833 who married Henry Kirtland before 1860 also in Shoreditch. I would like to know if they were in Shoreditch in 1861 and 1871...Scottie,

Here are the KIRTLANDs in 1861:

Name / Estimated Birth Year / Birthplace / Relationship / Occupation
Henry Kirtland 1831 Islington, Middlesex, England Head Pointer [or Printer?]Compositer
Harriet Kirtland 1832 St Luke, Middlesex, England Wife Artificial Florist
Henry H Kirtland 1857 St Luke, Middlesex, England Son
Harriet E Kirtland 1860 St Luke, Middlesex, England Daughter

Address: 14 King Street, St Luke Middlesex
Source information: RG9/203
Registration district: St Luke
Sub-registration district: City Road
ED, institution, or vessel: 9
Folio: 45
Trish
08-05-2005, 4:30 PM
...also seeking Elizabeth's sister Harriet born 1833 who married Henry Kirtland before 1860 also in Shoreditch. I would like to know if they were in Shoreditch in 1861 and 1871...And [the KIRTLANDs] in 1871...

Name / Estimated Birth Year / Birthplace / Relationship / Occupation
Henry Kirtland 1831 Islington, Middlesex, England Head Printer Compositor
Harriet Kirtland 1832 St Luke, Middlesex, England Wife
Henry H Kirtland 1857 St Luke, Middlesex, England Son Errand boy
Harriet E Kirtland 1860 St Luke, Middlesex, England Daughter Scholar
Eliza J Kirtland 1863 St Luke, Middlesex, England Daughter Scholar
Martha H Kirtland 1864 Shoreditch, Middlesex, England Daughter Scholar
Edwards E Kirtland 1866 Shoreditch, Middlesex, England Son

Address: 62 Bullesland Street, St Leonard Shoreditch, London
Source information: RG10/451
Registration district: Shoreditch
Sub-registration district: Hoxton New Town
ED, institution, or vessel: 25
Folio: 16
Page: 27

Trish
Scottie
08-05-2005, 5:12 PM
Thank you so much trish I will pass these on to my friend and neighbour :D
Trish
08-05-2005, 9:03 PM
Thank you so much trish I will pass these on to my friend and neighbour :DYou're most welcome, Scottie.

I meant to mention in one of my previous messages that I did look for the MARTINs in 1861 but couldn't find a household that matched all your details.

I did find a close prospect in one 30-year old James MARTIN living in Westminster St. Margaret, Middlesex but he was married to a Margaret [not an Elizabeth], born in 1832 in Chelsea [not 1840 in Shoreditch]. If I recall correctly, they had 2 children, both born in Chelsea.

If you think this household may be relevant to your friend's research somehow, I would be happy to track it down again and give you the details.

But it's more likely that the MARTIN household is hiding under a transcription or enumerator error somewhere and successfully eluding me.

Trish
Scottie
09-05-2005, 1:02 PM
Dear Trish,

Thanks but this is not him as I have him in 1871 and 1881 and my friend is sure that he only had one wife. Peggy found them in Birmingham in 1871 but was unable to find them in 1861. They had a son born 1859 in London and one born 1864 in Birmingham so the likelihood is that they had gone to Birmingham by 1861. James MARTIN had a furniture factory there and my neighbour is fortunate to have pictures of the staff outside.

I would like to find the marriage of James and Elizabeth for him so that he will be able to get the name of James's Father. Thank you so much for the search so far :D
Scottie
09-05-2005, 5:09 PM
Dear Trish,

My friend has just given me a billhead that shows that the firm of Martin & Sons was established in 1861 in Bromsgrove Street, Birmingham so that means they were there and not in London. Peggy may be able to find them in Birmingham.
Trish
10-05-2005, 2:05 AM
Dear Trish,

My friend has just given me a billhead that shows that the firm of Martin & Sons was established in 1861 in Bromsgrove Street, Birmingham so that means they were there and not in London. Peggy may be able to find them in Birmingham.Okay, time to get serious here... I've taken another look...

I can't understand why James and Elizabeth aren't showing up so I've tried searching for: Elizabeth [no last name], born about 1840, living in Birmingham with Shoreditch as a keyword. The only hit I get is for an Elizabeth MARTIN and her husband, Edwin, born 1838 and 1828 respectively. No children. Elizabeth's birthplace is Shoreditch, but Edwin's birthplace is Lancashire. His occupation is "Bookmaker". I can't imagine that this is a fit for "our" MARTINs. But I don't see any other surnames that come close -- like Morten or Warden -- and are possibly a transcription error.

But don't give up. We can try again. What sort of firm was Martin & Sons? And does the billhead include an address?

Trish
Trish
10-05-2005, 4:49 AM
Well, Scottie, I can now tell you that the MARTINs weren't living at their 1871 address [127 Bromgrove] in 1861. A shoe and boot maker and his family are at that address. I've tried searching for variations of MARTIN but nothing reasonable turns up. Perhaps they were still in the London area at the time of the census but moved to Birmingham later in the year -- i.e., after the beginning of April?

Trish
Trish
10-05-2005, 6:40 AM
I think maybe, just maybe, I have found the MARTINs in 1861.

I elected to look for Elizabeth's brother James DICK, born about 1850. He is shown as living with the MARTINs in the 1881 census so I thought maybe looking for him in 1861 might lead somewhere. And I found him -- or what looks like him living in Shoreditch, in his brother-in-law's household. But the brother-in-law's name is MILLER, not MARTIN so I was about to discount this entry when I decided to took a closer look... see below.

Other than the minor problem of a surname discrepancy, everything fits quite nicely.

And the surname? MARTIN to MILLER? The enumerator seemed to have been quite "out to lunch" so, as odd as it seems, I truly think he botched the family name. After all, he listed what look like birthplaces in the column for occupation for most members of the family. Consequently, James Dick's occupation [scholar?] is not stated.

Name / Estimated Birth Year / Birthplace / Relationship / Occupation
James Mark Miller 1832 Shoreditch, Middlesex, England Head Chair maker
Elizabeth Miller 1833 St Lukes, Middlesex, England Wife Artificial flower maker
James Miller 1854 Middlesex, England Son
Thos Miller 1859 Middlesex, England Son
Jame Dick 1850 Middlesex, England Brother-in-law
Trish
10-05-2005, 6:42 AM
Sorry, Scottie, the gremlins deleted the last part of my message which gave the source information:

Address: 102 Courtin Road, Shoreditch, St Leonard, Middlesex
Source information: RG9/231
Registration district: Shoreditch
Sub-registration district: Holywell
ED, institution, or vessel: 3
Folio: 70
Page: 14

HTH,
Trish
Scottie
12-05-2005, 1:42 PM
Dear Trish,
Yes you have cracked it. Sorry I did not check the thread yesterday but I was not on long and just had time to answer a private message on another of my threads and had to stop. This answers a puzzle that we had. Carl has the burial book entries for James Martin and they state that he was James M Miller BUT the stone says James Martin. The firm was Martin & Sons which does not help. This is him in 1861 definitely .....how exciting! Many many thanks.|woohoo|
Peggy
12-05-2005, 4:02 PM
Brilliant, Trish! I'm so glad you've solved this one. I was following (and hunting for) the Martins on a Birmingham forum thread, so missed these messages until now. Great detective work! |bowdown|

Regards,

Peggy
Scottie
12-05-2005, 8:44 PM
Brilliant, Trish! I'm so glad you've solved this one. I was following (and hunting for) the Martins on a Birmingham forum thread, so missed these messages until now. Great detective work! |bowdown|

Regards,

Peggy
Dear Peggy & Trish,
Now the plot thickens as it seems the James Mark Miller and James Martin are one and the same but the curious thing is that in 1881 when he is in Birmingham where I first found him as James Martin he has a sister Jane with him who is a Miller Widow. This suggests to me that she married a cousin. Could you possibly find a Jane Miller born abt 1838 in Shoreditch with a son Thomas born 1867 in Shoreditch in the 1871 census? I would also like to find James Miller alias Martin in 1851. He must be in Shoreditch. I am sorry to be so cheeky but I am very intrigued by this. My theory is that he was the illegitimate son of a Miller girl and that he took his Father's name when he moved to Birmingham after the 1861 census.

:confused:
Trish
13-05-2005, 4:42 AM
Brilliant, Trish! I'm so glad you've solved this one. I was following (and hunting for) the Martins on a Birmingham forum thread, so missed these messages until now. Great detective work! |bowdown|

Regards,

PeggyThank you, Peggy! I was pretty chuffed with myself for landing on the right household, finally, after going a little nuts looking for MARTIN, MARTEN, MORTEN, MORTON, etc -- even WARTIN, WARDEN.

Trish
Trish
13-05-2005, 4:58 AM
...Could you possibly find a Jane Miller born abt 1838 in Shoreditch with a son Thomas born 1867 in Shoreditch in the 1871 census? I would also like to find James Miller alias Martin in 1851...Jane MILLER and son Thomas in 1871? This seems so easy after my first "trial by fire"... Yes, they are both there in Hackney with Jane's [and James's?] mother:

Name / Estimated Birth Year / Birthplace / Relationship / Occupation
Jane Miller 1805 Hoxton Head [Widow] Independent
Jane Miller 1837 Shoreditch Daughter [Married] [No occupation given]
Thomas Miller 1867 Shoreditch Grandson

13 Andrew's Road, Hackney, London
Source information: RG10/329
Registration district: Hackney
Sub-registration district: South Hackney
ED, institution, or vessel: 3
Folio: 15
Page: 23

The younger Jane is definitely listed as daughter to the elder Jane but also her marital status is definitely married even though their surnames are the same. So maybe your cousin theory has merit. This is very intriguing. I wish I had access to the 1851 census but, alas, I do not.

...now very curious...
Trish
Peggy
13-05-2005, 5:32 AM
Hi Scottie & Trish,

Trish, are you sure the 1871 says "Independent" for Jane Miller born 1805? I couldn't make it out, but I think I found the same family in 1861 (sent to Scotte via e-mail), and Jane Sr, widow, was a Laundress, as was the unmarried Jane Jr. (RG9/244, Folio 127, Page 12)

Peggy
Trish
13-05-2005, 5:34 AM
Do you have the 1861 census info for the two Jane MILLERs? This may lend credence to your cousin theory -- a William MILLER, a boarder, is in the same household:

Name / Estimated Birth Year / Birthplace / Relationship / Occupation
Jane Miller 1805 Shoreditch, Middlesex, England Head [Widow] Laundress
Jane Miller 1838 Shoreditch, Middlesex, England Daughter [Unmarried] Laundress
Betsy Miller 1843 Shoreditch, Middlesex, England Daughter [Unmarried] Artificial Flower Maker
Thomas Miller 1846 Shoreditch, Middlesex, England Son [Unmarried] Chair Maker
William Miller 1833 Chelmsford Boarder [Unmarried] Chair Maker
1 Wilmer Garden, Shoreditch,St Leonard, Middlesex
Source information: RG9/244
Registration district: Shoreditch
Sub-registration district: Haggerstone West
ED, institution, or vessel: 6
Folio: 127
Page: 12
Scottie
13-05-2005, 11:32 AM
Dear Trish & Peggy,

You are both working so hard :D Peggy sent me the image and I read Jane Junior as unmarried in 1871 mind I had to do it with a magnifying glass because I was too stingy to pay ;) There is something very weird going on here but Carl is off to Hackney in 2 weeks to look at the Parish records so he will be looking for Millers and Martins now. I suppose it is possible that both of the Janes sanitised their marital status for the census and that Martin was the putative Father's surname which became the family name when they moved to Birmingham where no one knew them. I cant wait to hear. Carl and I both thank you so much for all your help. Hopefully he will see the 1851 for Shoreditch while he is up there and satisfy our curiosity. I have said that the first thing he should do is get James Miller or Martin's marriage certificate as that should answer some questions.....the horrible thought is that there may not be one!!

apologies it does say married for Jane and her mother is Independent in 1871...perhaps the elusive Mr Martin paid her some money ;)