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LostSouls
30-04-2010, 03:21 PM
My Gt Grandmother Hannah Turner states on her marriage certificate that her father was John Turner who was a watch maker.

However, the only birth record (1853) for a Hannah Turner which looks remotely correct states that the father was a watch maker named Henry Turner.

I have found the marriage of this Henry Turner to a Hannah Blake in 1848 and I have also found the couple living in Galway Street, Finsbury, London on the 1851 census.

It is what happenes after 1851 which is the mystery.

The subsequent birth certificate of their daughter Hannah states that she was born in Strand Union Work House which at first seemed strange as Henry came from what appears to be a wealthy family.

Also I could find no record of either Henry or his wife Hannah on the 1861 census - but I did discover a Henry Turner of the correct age and profession living in Coventry.

What I found was that Henry had remarried in Aston, Warwickshire and apparently abandoned his daughter in London. (The name and profession of Henry's father was the same on both marriage certificates - and incidentally Henry descibed himself as a bachelor at the time of his second marriage).

It would seem that Henry was an untrustworthy and unpleasant character.

In fact Henry probably never knew his daughter because he had almost certainly deserted his family before his daughter was born in the Work House. No suprise therefore that the daughter may have got her father's name wrong - she never knew him.

On the 1861 census I have found a Hannah Turner, aged 8, living in St Sepulchre as a "Boarder" - with no sign of her mother. I therefore made the assumption that her mother had died sometime between the time of her daughter's birth in 1853 and 1861.

Of all the Hannah Turners who died in London within that period only one fits the evidence of correct age and correct place.

However the certificate makes no reference to having been married (which I suppose is hardly suprising if she had been abandoned prior to giving birth to her daughter).

Also the certificate describes the informant's signature as "The mark of Hannah Turner, present at the death".

Now when Hannah Turner died in 1856 her daughter Hannah would have been only 3 years old - and there appear to be no other Hannahs anywhere in the family.

So (at last) my questions:

Is it possible for a 3yr old to be named as the informant on a death certificate??

Perhaps the daughter found her dead mother and was subsequently taken to the Registrar by a neighbour?

Does anybody know of a child being named as the informant??

Also I presume that Hannah's marital state at the time of her death may have been unknown because of the stigma associated with her husband's desertion.

Looking forward to receiving any response.

Jan1954
30-04-2010, 05:05 PM
On the 1861 census I have found a Hannah Turner, aged 8, living in St Sepulchre as a "Boarder" - with no sign of her mother. I therefore made the assumption that her mother had died sometime between the time of her daughter's birth in 1853 and 1861.Always dangerous to assume. :wink5: Maybe Hannah senior married and boarded her daughter as the new husband did not want her around. This did happen more than you would think.....


Of all the Hannah Turners who died in London within that period only one fits the evidence of correct age and correct place.

However the certificate makes no reference to having been married (which I suppose is hardly suprising if she had been abandoned prior to giving birth to her daughter).Now when Hannah Turner died in 1856 her daughter Hannah would have been only 3 years old - and there appear to be no other Hannahs anywhere in the family.Which begs the question as to whether or not this is the correct Hannah.


So (at last) my questions:

Is it possible for a 3yr old to be named as the informant on a death certificate??Highly unlikely


Perhaps the daughter found her dead mother and was subsequently taken to the Registrar by a neighbour? Then I would have expected the neighbour to have been the informant.


Does anybody know of a child being named as the informant?? It depends upon what you would classify as a "child". Remember, these were the days when you could marry at 12 for a girl and 14 for a boy. I have seen instances of when an informant on a death certificate has been as young as 14.


Also I presume that Hannah's marital state at the time of her death may have been unknown because of the stigma associated with her husband's desertion.The information on a death certificate is only as good as the knowledge of the person registering the death.

I hope that this helps. :smile5:

Peter Goodey
30-04-2010, 05:15 PM
I assume that you're rock solid certain that you've got the right marriage of Hannah. As this data is pivotal, can you please provide the details.

Also how many definite census sightings do you have of young Hannah before the marriage? Please provide references. Also what was the date and details of the possible birth that you found. Was it the Cleveland Street workhouse?

LostSouls
01-05-2010, 08:34 AM
Thanks for the responses.

More details:

My Gt Grandmother Hannah Turner married Joseph Rutter in St Gabriel’s, Pimlico on 18/3/1877.
Hannah was described as aged 22 and Joseph 21.

I suspect that Hannah’s age was incorrect. She was probably a couple of years older than she claimed.

She may genuinely not have known her true age – especially if she had been orphaned as a young child – or she may have (slightly) misled husband Joseph.

On each of the 4 census extracts after her marriage (and on her death certificate) her given age (and therefore her birth year) goes up and down like a yo-yo.

In 1881 Hannah states she is 25 and that she was born in Bloomsbury
In 1891 she was 33 and born in the London City
In 1901 she is still 33 but now she was born in Lincoln Inn Fields
In 1911 she is 51 – but still from Lincoln Inn Fields
When she died on 19/9/1914 aged 56

As mentioned in my first post she describes her father as John Turner who was a watch maker.

I’ve found 3 John Turners in the watch/clock trade in London - but I’ve been unable to associate any of them with a daughter named Hannah. The census records show that they either didn’t have children or they had children but none named Hannah.

I’ve been unable to find an appropriate birth certificate for a Hannah Turner which names John Turner as the father.

Hence my belief that the birth certificate of Hannah Turner (28/2/1853) at Strand Union Workhouse in Cleveland Street is the correct record. The profession of the father is correct – even if the name is wrong. I have already discovered at least two correct marriage certificates of my ancestors where the name of the father has been incorrect – so another naming error would not be surprising, especially considering what could have been a troubled childhood for the bride.

I have no positive sighting of Hannah in 1871 but I suspect that she is boarding with William and Elizabeth Pearson in Greenhills Rents in 1861. This 1861 census extract states she was born in St Sepulchre which could easily be described as the City, Bloomsbury, or Lincolns Inn.

Data concerning Hannah Turner’s mother is patchy - just one tenuous 1841 census record, the marriage certificate of Hannah Blake and Henry Turner and the dubious death certificate.

However Henry, the named father, is definitely the same man who married Emma Tustin in St Peter’s, Aston on 13/7/1857. All the census records and both the marriage certificates show that he was the same man. So whatever else happened he definitely deserted his first wife and the desertion probably took place before she gave birth to Hannah in 1853 in the Work House.

The marriage of Henry Turner and Hannah Blake took place at St James’, Westminster on 9/9/1848. Henry is easy to trace in 1841 – he is living with his parents William (a Vellum Binder) and Charlotte in Bridge Court Westminster.

Hannah Blake was more difficult to find due to a transcription error(Blacker rather than Blake) but I think she was working as a 15 year old servant in The Strand – which of course is not too far from the home of randy young Henry Turner at Bridge Court.

On her wedding certificate Hannah Blake is described as being of full age and on the 1851 census when she is with her soon to be departed husband Henry she is described as 24 years old and from Camberwell. This age corresponds with the death certificate of 16/9/1856 when she is described as aged 30. The death states she died in Pauls Alley, Cripplegate which is again in the St Sepulchre area of London.

So my problems stem from my inability to conclusively find the birth of Hannah Rutter nee Turner. Her definite year of birth is unknown and there is also doubt concerning her father’s name.

Having said that I do think the birth in the Cleveland Street Work House is correct – it’s her mother I’m now having problems with.