Aartsen Music Hall Artiste around 1918

[gscott1]

I am seeking any information on Franciscus Josephus Aartsen who married Lily Wilson in Rotterdam on 11/12/1913. Lily gave birth to a boy in Edinburgh named Leonardus Josephus Aartsen on 21/10/1918 who was my wifes father. He was later adopted and named Leonard Stuart Harrow. my wife and her brother are understandably anxious to trace their family history.
On the birth certificate their domocile was given as Boysone road Camberwell
London.
On the birth certificate Franciscus's occupation was given as music hall artiste.
Any information would be gratefully accepted.

[Sue Mackay]

Try putting The Stage Archives into Google. For £5 you can get a 24 hour pass to search back copies of The Stage newspaper, which included many music hall artists. Even if you only find playbills, it helps to track their progess around the country.

[gscott1]

Sue,
My apologies for a very belated reply to you. I have spent the last 6 months looking for answers to the question in every search site, chat room, newspaper etc. in all of England, Scotland and half of Europe without success. I guess they did a great job of hiding their identities or perhaps the the Aartsen and Wilson part of the equation were figments of imagination or I have been looking in the wrong places. I will give it a rest for the moment. Perhaps I will get a blinding flash of brilliance one day and solve the puzzle.
Thanks
gscott1

[AdeleE]

Did the couple have any other children? By using the free search on Scotlands Peoples, the results indicate 4 Aartsen births in Scotland between 1912 and 1925.

[gscott1]

AdeleE
Thanks for your reply.
I have done the Scotlands people searches and found the people you mention. The thing that is really puzzling me is that I can find no trace of Lily and Franciscus either in Scotland, England or in Rotterdam. Although the birth certificate for leonardus says married Rotterdam 1913 I can find no trace of it or for that matter I can find no trace of their death or any reason why the adoption took place.
Looking through music hall sites has no mention of them.

Thank you for your interest

Gscott1

[AdeleE]

I've had a look as well on Ancestry census, BMD and immigration records & found nothing. You may have thought of this already, but the birth in Scotland may have happened because they were in Edinburgh while he was temporarily performing there on that date. As you know, music hall performers often used stage names. Perhaps you could check the Stage newspaper archive or Edinburgh newspapers for advertisements of performers playing there at that time? Then see if you can follow these specific performers for some further clues?

I've been unable to find a Boysone Road in Camberwell. Is the handwriting clear on the certificate?

[AdeleE]

I think I've found the street name. The Victorian London Street Name website lists a Boyson Road in Walworth.

[AdeleE]

I have done the Scotlands people searches and found the people you mention.
Gscott1

I neglected to ask. Have you purchased any of the other 3 birth certificates to determine the names of the parents?

[gscott1]

The birth certificate gives the street district as Camberwell London S.E.. The problem with looking through stage newspapers for their performances is that despite my best efforts, I have not been able to find their stage names.
There was a famous stage artist by the name of Lily Wilson but I dont think it is the one I am looking for.
I have not as yet purchased a birth certificate for the other 3 girls as I thought that just the look of their names compared to Leonardus (Catherine,Dorothy and Margaret) just did not point to an identical family. Perhaps I should try it .

[AdeleE]

The birth certificate gives the street district as Camberwell London S.E.. The problem with looking through stage newspapers for their performances is that despite my best efforts, I have not been able to find their stage names.
There was a famous stage artist by the name of Lily Wilson but I dont think it is the one I am looking for.
I have not as yet purchased a birth certificate for the other 3 girls as I thought that just the look of their names compared to Leonardus (Catherine,Dorothy and Margaret) just did not point to an identical family. Perhaps I should try it .

Does the birth certificate give an address of birth for the child?

Yes, it may be an idea to purchase the other birth certificates. Perhaps the father will be the same, or perhaps the father will be a relative. It may give you one more avenue of research, for what now appears to be a hopefully temporary dead end.. I noticed that there are also Aartsen marriages & deaths on Scotlands Peoples. (Just in case you need any help spending your money)

[gscott1]

I ordered the birth certificate of Catherine Marie and she is indeed the daughter of Lily and Franciscus Aartsen and as with Leonardus she was born in the maternity hospital, so no home address.
I have now sent for the birth cetificates of Dorothy and Margaret.
If they are indeed all sisters it would be strange that all four would all be born in Scotland while having a domocile in London.

[gscott1]

The 3 women are indeed all sisters. They all kept the name Aartsen . Only the son seems to have been adopted or changed his name. Only the last born (Margaret) birth certificate was signed by the father and gave an address of 215 Abercrombie Glasgow. The rest were all Maternity hospitals.

The search for answers continues.

A merry Christmas and a happy new year to all.

gscott1

[maartsen]

Have you made any attempts to track Franciscus Josephus Aartsen in The Netherlands, or in Indonesia. where a branch of the Aartsen family were sugar planters?



I am seeking any information on Franciscus Josephus Aartsen who married Lily Wilson in Rotterdam on 11/12/1913. Lily gave birth to a boy in Edinburgh named Leonardus Josephus Aartsen on 21/10/1918 who was my wifes father. He was later adopted and named Leonard Stuart Harrow. my wife and her brother are understandably anxious to trace their family history.
On the birth certificate their domocile was given as Boysone road Camberwell
London.
On the birth certificate Franciscus's occupation was given as music hall artiste.
Any information would be gratefully accepted.

[gscott1]

I have searched every Dutch site I can find. The problem is that I do not speak Dutch so most of them are double dutch to me.
As an aside the marriage date is 4/12/1913 not 11/12/1918. As I have said before these two people were never born, never married and never died.
Thanks
George.

[Squaredancer]

If you find a "possibility" on a foreign language site, copy the URL, go to Google and under "more" at the top of the screen you'll find a dropdown menu. Pick Translate, paste the URL in and the site will appear in (sort of) English.

Hope this helps :smile5:

[Geoffers]

Also, there are some Dutch speakers on these forums who may be able to assist.

[gscott1]

Thanks guy's.
I have not found anything that presents even a possibility.
I have found many Aartsens but none in the same era as Franciscus and Lily.
I have looked in Scotlands people and U.K. bmd sites for Lily's birth or death without success, likewise with Franciscus.
If there are any Dutch speakers on this forum your help in even finding their marriage in Rotterdam 4/12/1918 would be appreciated
Thanks for your efforts,
agaeorge.

[gscott1]

Once again I have got dates mixed up. The marriage date is 4/12/1913.
And I don't know who agaeorge is.
Sorry for the error
Thanks
George

[gscott1]

We have a little progress to report. I got in touch with a person called Kirsten at - info(at)dutchancestrycoach.com - by chance and while she could find no marriage of the mysterious pair, she found the likely birth of Franciscus in 1/2/1888 in Rotterdam and info on his parents so we have found 1 birth but the rest is still a work in progress.

Thanks to all

George

[gscott1]

A long awaited update.
At long last I have had a little win in tracing Franciscus. I have found that he died in 1967 in Rotterdam. His parents were Leonardus Aartsen and Catherine Maria Brinkman.
It would appear that the act of giving away children continued with at least one more of the sisters.
There is more info being sent to from the Netherlands, hopefully it will fill in a few more holes in the puzzle. No news yet of Lily yet.
Will let you know what happens.
Thanks again for all previous help.
George

[Dizzy600]

Your preserverance has paid off - it gives us all hope!

[gscott1]

Here I am again with an update on the continuing saga.
As I said before Franciscus died 1967 in the netherlands but according to his archive card not in Rotterdam but in Utrecht.
According to the card his wife Lily died in Glasgow in 1962 but as usual, there is no trace of her, at least not in "Scotlands People".
I have searched under every name I can think of, to no avail. Can anyone out there suggest how she can die in Scotland without the death being recorded in Scotlands People or a name other than the obvious ( Aartsen,Lily,Wilson).
George.
.

[maartsen]

If she was by then a Dutch citizen (Dutch law prohibits dual citizenship) her death might not have been recorded in Scotland, other than in police or hospital records. She, and her death, would have been entered on Franciscus' civil registry record in The Netherlands, however, since The Netherlands has a French style centralized citizen registration system. The civil registry record would have been kept in the city registry where the husband was resident - you seem to indicate that to be Utrecht?

The office you are looking for is named "Burgerlijke Stand" in Dutch, each municipality in The Netherlands and its Possessions has one. If the wife was a Dutch citizen but not considered ordinarily resident in The Netherlands, a record could have been created through the Netherlands Embassy in London, and I believe that those are kept in the central registry at the Ministry of the Interior (Ministerie van Binnenlandse Zaken) in The Hague. This is done because in many countries this type of civil registry is not legal, and The Netherlands does not maintain records of its citizens in those countries, other than passport applications.

So, to make a short story long, what you are looking for is the civil registry record for the husband, this is called the "Uittreksel uit de Burgerlijke Stand". This would have all relevant records for husband as well as wife, down to parents, other marriages, as well as children. These days, those records are issued in multiple languages, including English.



Here I am again with an update on the continuing saga.
As I said before Franciscus died 1967 in the netherlands but according to his archive card not in Rotterdam but in Utrecht.
According to the card his wife Lily died in Glasgow in 1962 but as usual, there is no trace of her, at least not in "Scotlands People".
I have searched under every name I can think of, to no avail. Can anyone out there suggest how she can die in Scotland without the death being recorded in Scotlands People or a name other than the obvious ( Aartsen,Lily,Wilson).
George.
.

[gscott1]

Menno,
Many thanks indeed for your input.
I have a copy of what I am told is the archive card of Franciscus which gives the dates of death of Franciacus and Lily and when Lily left the Netherlands to go to Glasgow but it has no info on her parents etc. I am also told that Lily's card will be in a different place because she died abroad.
I will now look at the names you have given me for the answers

George

[maartsen]

My pleasure, George.

If Franciscus' civil registry record has a date for Lily's move to Glasgow, that would indicate hers was a more or less permanent move. In pre-EU days, moving to the United Kingdom would mean emigration - temporary sojourns for professional reasons weren't registered. If she had taken Dutch citizenship, her record might then be in The Hague, since she died abroad. If she had not taken Dutch citizenship, there might not be a record, since one had to be a "burger", citizen, to have such a record, in which case her only record would be under Franciscus' name, and the U.K. would have used its own process. From what you tell me, I wonder whether Franciscus and Lily possibly separated while in the UK, and he moved back home alone.

If Lily became a Dutch citizen, or even if she did not, there should be a citizenship application, or a residence permit, on file with the Dutch immigration folks, who, at the time, probably were in the Justice Dept. (Ministerie van Justitie), you're looking for what is now called the Immigratie- en Naturalisatiedienst in The Hague. Remember, again, this is in pre-EU days, and processes between the Netherlands and the UK were pretty much as they are today between European countries and the United States. When I moved from The Netherlands to the United Kingdom in 1979 that was still considered proper emigration, and I could not be de-registered in Amsterdam until the London Embassy had verified my U.K. residence permit. There might be a tax record, too, for Dutch living abroad tax records are moved to the tax office (Belastingdienst) in Brunssum.

FWIW... ;)




Menno,
Many thanks indeed for your input.
I have a copy of what I am told is the archive card of Franciscus which gives the dates of death of Franciacus and Lily and when Lily left the Netherlands to go to Glasgow but it has no info on her parents etc. I am also told that Lily's card will be in a different place because she died abroad.
I will now look at the names you have given me for the answers

George

[maartsen]

Brilliant researcher that I am, I never did a search in Dutch in Dutch Google, 'course:

http://www.rkd.nl/rkddb/%28S%28tax2d4oglgmhccfd41z03uwb%29%29/detail.aspx

http://www.fotografen.nl/en/component/nfm_fotografen/fotograaf/id/447080/plaats_van_werkzaamheid/Utrecht/limit/20/sortby/sort_kunstenaarsnaam

Even registered as a photographer in the Dutch governmental Art History database. Not a word about a music hall artiste.

[maartsen]

Boyson Road is indeed in Camberwell, Southwark, London

http://maps.google.com/maps?q=Boyson+Road+London+SE17&ll=51.483521,-0.092697&spn=0.062109,0.175438&oe=utf-8&client=seamonkey-a&hnear=Boyson+Rd,+London+Borough+of+Southwark,+Lond on+SE17,+United+Kingdom&gl=us&t=m&z=13

[maartsen]

If you had not found the Dutch gummint genealogists, here they are:

http://www.
cbg.nl/

Click on the Union Jack to get to a sort-of English version of the site. I haven't found anything of note, but then I haven't looked very thoroughly. There is a forum there that might be helpful. I couldn't find any Aartsens in Scotland, curious as there are a few in the U.K., normally a married woman in the day would have more or less abandoned her maiden name. I did find two Lily Wilson graves in the Glasgow/Clyde area, one dating to 2005, the other without a date.


Menno,
Many thanks indeed for your input.
I have a copy of what I am told is the archive card of Franciscus which gives the dates of death of Franciacus and Lily and when Lily left the Netherlands to go to Glasgow but it has no info on her parents etc. I am also told that Lily's card will be in a different place because she died abroad.
I will now look at the names you have given me for the answers

George

[gscott1]

A quick note to say that at long last I have got both Franciscus and Lily's dates of death. Lily used their stage surname instead of Aartsen. I am also in touch with one of her grandaughters.
Still have a pile of info to go through.
Thanks to all who helped in the quest.

Best wishes to you all

George.