Death in Absentia

[Bex2]

Hi there

First I must apologise because this is an enquiry for a fictional project and I know that is not the purpose of this forum. However I have been really struggling to find what I'm looking for, and I know there is a huge amount of knowledge here so I thought it would be worth a try....

Has anyone ever come across a death certificate for someone who was declared dead after having been missing for a period of time, or after an inquest ruled that there was enough evidence to declare them dead? I'm trying to find out what such a certificate might say. As far as I can gather they are issued, but I can't find out whether you would be able to find them in the normal way.

Any help, advice or suggestions of where else to look very much appreciated!

Thank you.

[bibliojunkie]

Your best bet would be to contact the General Records Office for information on 0845 603 7788 or via email at certificate.services@ips.gsi.gov.uk

Ali

[Peter Goodey]

Any help, advice or suggestions of where else to look very much appreciated!

What I think you're talking about is presumption of death. I don't understand where you think an inquest comes into it. Presumption of death is a decision of a court of law.

Because it's a presumption and it isn't known as a scientific fact that the person really is dead, there is no death certificate. It's the court's decision that allows probate, re-marriage and anything else that depends on that decision.

This document (http://www.parliament.uk/commons/lib/research/briefings/snha-04890.pdf) explains it in simple terms.

[JenniLl]

Peter,
I think that you have answered a query that I had. My cousin was one of three scouts in a boating accident in 1949. I'm not sure if his body was ever discovered but I have searched widely in the index of deaths and drawn a blank.
Thank you.
Jenni

[Peter Goodey]

Actually I didn't get it right. There do seem to be provisions for an inquest without a body if there is circumstantial evidence such as an overturned boat (see the Canoe Couple - references in the House of Commons document) but the original question was specifically about a disappearance.

[Peter Goodey]

As I'm digging myself deeper into a hole here, I really must stop digging. However there is enough information in the House of Commons document for the questioner to obtain a copy of the death certificate that was issued in the canoe couple case.

I'm sorry I was slow to spot that the original question was actually about two different circumstances.

[Bex2]

Thanks for your replies. This does seem to be a very complicated area. I've been in contact with a coroner who told me that in certain circumstances an inquest would be held and a death certificate issued. I've also looked into presumption of death issue, but I had gathered that the court would then issue a death certificate. If one were issued, my question is then how would one go about finding it? Would it be in GRO records in the normal way, and if so what date would be on it? I can't find one for the canoe man but I don't know if it might have been withdrawn after he was discovered to be alive. However from what Jenni says about her cousin maybe such deaths are not registered? What I'm looking for is a first step for a researcher to be led into finding out more about this person's disappearance/death.

Apologies for any confusion I've caused - as you can hear I'm quite stumped by this. I'll try contacting the GRO again, although I haven't had much luck with them so far.

Becky

[Kerrywood]

Bex2, I have a case of presumed death in my immediate family, relating to someone who disappeared in the Alps in 1930.

I have a copy of the court's decision for the death to be "sworn" and letters of administration to be granted. This was six years later. I've never been able to find a death certificate, but the event was in any case outside the UK, which may have complicated matters.

If you're interested in seeing a copy of the documentation, please PM me your email address.

[Peter Goodey]

I can't find one for the canoe man but I don't know if it might have been withdrawn after he was discovered to be alive.

The information on how to find it is actually all there in the references "The Register General of Shipping and Seamen then issued a death certificate" It can be found in the overseas deaths part of findmypast and the certificate can be ordered from GRO in the usual way (via Overseas Section)

My understanding, which you have now gathered is dodgy, is that there wouldn't be a certificate if the presumption was based solely on disappearance and nothing else. However if there was other evidence that the person had died (eg wreckage) but no body had been found, there could possibly an inquest and a death certificate.

[JenniLl]

Peter,

I have searched well past seven years after Derek's death and not found a reference for a death certificate. Maybe he is 'misfiled' but with a fairly unusual surname - Puntis, there cannot be many variations - surely?!

Jenni

[Bex2]

Oh yes I think I can see the canoeist there now. I forgot about the sea not counting as Britain - thanks very much for that. I have also gathered that death certificates were issued for people presumed dead in the Tsunami, and have found records for them on findmypast. My understanding was also that an inquest would be carried out if there was supporting evidence of a death and not just a disappearance. So my only question now is how such a death would be registered post-inquest if it was several years after it had actually taken place. Would it show the date of death (assuming there was evidence for it) - or would it have the date of the inquest? I'd also really like to know what sort of wording would be used.

Thanks again for all your help.

Becky

[Geoffers]

Section 15 Coroners Act 1988

Inquest where body destroyed or irrecoverable .
(1)
Where a coroner has reason to believe— .
(a) that a death has occurred in or near his district in such circumstances that an inquest ought to be held; and .
(b) that owing to the destruction of the body by fire or otherwise, or to the fact that the body is lying in a place from which it cannot be recovered, an inquest cannot be held except in pursuance of this section, .
he may report the facts to the Secretary of State.
(2)
Where a report is made under subsection (1) above, the Secretary of State may, if he considers it desirable to do so, direct a coroner (whether the coroner making the report or another) to hold an inquest into the death. .
(3)
Where a coroner is directed under this section to hold an inquest, the provisions of this Act and the law relating to coroners and coroners' inquests shall apply with such modifications as may be necessary in consequence of the inquest being one into the death of a person whose body does not lie within the coroner’s district.

There may be other useful information t be found on OPSI either under this Act or the Births and Deaths Registration Act.

To find precisely the wording presently used, I suggest contacting a Coroner's Office.

[Peter Goodey]

So my only question now is how such a death would be registered post-inquest if it was several years after it had actually taken place

I've tried to suggest that there are two situations. If you get a court's presumption of death because someone has been missing for seven years, I do not believe there would be a certificate. This is a different situation from those covered by Geoffers' post,

[melsibob]

I have a death certificate for a relative who, allegedly, threw herself in Hull Dock (details of the inquest no longer exist). She was found some miles further down the river some time later, she was identified by her clothing. By this time several bits of her body were missing (as described in a newspaper). The death certificate has been amended - it gives the date of death as 26th June 1895 (this was the date the body was found) The death certficate gives the inquest date as the 28th June 1895. However, in the margin of the cetificate a note has been added amending the certiifcate details, giving the person's name and who identified her -this is dated 8th July 1895. This amendment was provided by the Registrar acting on the coronors authority. I found the certificate after a family member told me the story - The husband remarried so I worked backwards from that date to find a possible death record. Does that answer the orginal question?

[v.wells]

This is a really interesting thread. My neighbour behind my house - well her husband disappeared near a gravel pit 8 yrs ago now and the body has never been found. I assumed that the death certificate would be issued 7 yrs from the date of disappearance and amended so. This afforded the legalities of inheritance and insurance payouts to the "widow". It would also allow her to re-marry legally. Death in Absentia - really thought provoking!

[Bex2]

Does that answer the orginal question?

Yes that's really helpful, thanks. I'm definitely building up a picture!