Please advise!! got a marriage but can't find their births or deaths!!

[Rjudith]

Hi, I am searching for a Llewellyn Richardson son of Matthew he was married in 1908 to a Mary ann Beresford (26/12/1908). at Brandon St John Evangelist church. Brandon Colliery Durham. But i can't seem to locate their births or deaths. Llewellyn was 23 in 1908 and Mary Ann was 18. I have found possible census returns for 1901 and 1891. But their son my Great uncle seems to think I am on the wrong family!! As I am very new to this can any one advise on how to locate their births/deaths. As i have been told that their birth certs will confirm their parents names. Their wedding Certificate which i hold states that both their fathers were called Matthew.
I have tried the search on durham records online but that showed no match (maybe my search tehnique is wrong).
Judith

[Geoffers]

I am searching for a Llewellyn Richardson son of Matthew he was married in 1908 to a Mary ann Beresford (26/12/1908). at Brandon St John Evangelist church. Brandon Colliery Durham...Llewellyn was 23 in 1908....I have found possible census returns for 1901 and 1891. But their son my Great uncle seems to think I am on the wrong family!!
What makes him think you have the wrong family?
Who were the witnesses to the marriage (any siblings to Llewellyn?)
According to the 1891 and 1901 census when and where was Matthew born? Is the infrormation consistent in each census (i.e. same wife and other members of the family, same/similar occupation).
Does your gt-uncle know whener/where died/buried?

Geoffers

[Jo Simpsons]

Hi Judith,

have you checked FreeBMD? There are 2 possible births for Llewellyn, one in 1883 at Gatehead the other at Houghton in 1885. If you don't the address for FreeBMD it is
http://freebmd.rootsweb.com

Jo :)

[Rjudith]

What makes him think you have the wrong family?
Who were the witnesses to the marriage (any siblings to Llewellyn?)
According to the 1891 and 1901 census when and where was Matthew born? Is the infrormation consistent in each census (i.e. same wife and other members of the family, same/similar occupation).
Does your gt-uncle know whener/where died/buried?

Geoffers

Hi I do have consistent information in the 1891 and 1901 census. The witness to the wedding was a William Beresford which off the 1901 census could have been Mary Ann's brother. But the other witness I can't read the writing! Well the reason I think I am on the wrong family is my gt-uncle! He seems to think he had an uncle Robert who was a Beresford, but I can't find that match. Although my gt uncle was orphaned at the age of 4 so maybe his memory is not true facts. His father Llewellyn apparantly died whilst his mother was pregnant with him my gt uncle that is also named Llewellyn. He was born in 1929 Durham. I know the ecc parish in which they lived was St John the Evangilist church Brandon Colliery. Durham. The sub-reg district is St Oswald. How will I find the parish records? Many thanks Judith

[Rjudith]

Hi thank you I searched those details you gave and the one who was born in 1883 died later that year. But I think the match is most deffinately the one born in 1885 at Houghton which is the next town to Hetton. As the addresses in Hetton Le Hole are follwed by Houghton Le Spring. So many thanks. I wrote down the district and page etc so which of these is the GRO number? I am sorry I don't know much about this research but I am going to join a family history course next week where I hope to learn imensly! Is there anyway people can view these certificates online? without actually purchasing a copy?

[Jo Simpsons]

Hi Judith,

you will have to buy the certificate to see it. You can order it on line from
http://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/
You need to register first. There is a simple form to fill in and you use the volume and page numbers that are shown on FreeBMD. It is £7.00 for a standard certificate. Good luck.
Jo:)

[Geoffers]

Hi I do have consistent information in the 1891 and 1901 census. The witness to the wedding was a William Beresford which off the 1901 census could have been Mary Ann's brother.
Okay, everything fits, so far so good.

But the other witness I can't read the writing!
This does sometimes happen, can you make out any of it? - first name, some of the surname?

Well the reason I think I am on the wrong family is my gt-uncle! He seems to think he had an uncle Robert who was a Beresford, but I can't find that match.
Of course, uncle Robert may have been born William Robert and just used the second name - or may Robert was a nickname - or as you susggest, memory does some strange things over time.

His father Llewellyn apparantly died whilst his mother was pregnant with him my gt uncle that is also named Llewellyn. He was born in 1929 Durham.
The father may well have fought in WW1 then, have you tried serching the medal cards to see how many Llewellyn Richardsons are recorded? Also, how many of this name are in the 1901 census?

How will I find the parish records? Many thanks Judith
Parish Records are usually held by the County Record Office.

Geoffers

[Rjudith]

[QUOTE=Geoffers
This does sometimes happen, can you make out any of it? - first name, some of the surname?

Yes the name is : Mary Jane Hausley/Hausky

The father may well have fought in WW1 then, have you tried serching the medal cards to see how many Llewellyn Richardsons are recorded? Also, how many of this name are in the 1901 census?

Unsure as to whether he did or not! How do you search those records? AS my grandfather mum's side deffinately did.

Geoffers[/QUOTE]

Thank you to both posts.!

[Geoffers]

[This does sometimes happen, can you make out any of it? - first name, some of the surname?]

Yes the name is : Mary Jane Hausley/Hausky
It may be worth your while to spend some time trying to find out more about her - does she appear in the 1901 or earlier census returns? She may possibly have been related to Llewellyn or his bride. If she was related to Llewellyn (sister/cousin) you may be able to confirm that you have the correct chap in the census and birth records.

[The father may well have fought in WW1 then]

Unsure as to whether he did or not! How do you search those records? AS my grandfather mum's side deffinately did.
The National Archives (TNA) at kew has a website with several useful links, it's worth exploring the site. The URL is: http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/

When you go to the site, you'll see a red band near the top of the screen - move your cursor over 'Search our Collections' and a drop down menu will appear, click on 'Document online (PCC wills+)'.

When the link opens, you'll see a picture of some medlas with the words 'WW1 Campaign Medals'. Read through the text and either select 'read more' or 'search the medals'. Searching the index is free, you pay to view the cards.

Geoffers

[Rjudith]

Thank you to both of you as I now have a lot more archives to search through! I truelly appreciate your help.

Thank you

[Jo Simpsons]

Keep asking, more info to help you all the better. Good luck with your family history course.

Jo :)

[Rjudith]

Thanks Jo, I start the course Monday! Quite excited about it! I am searching and finding quite interesting that Llewellyns father had been married previously and had about 6 children together! but his second wife had also been married twice previously! Was this quite common in the 1880's?! Is there any way of searching divorces? Although it is possible that he/she had been widowed. But i am now curious as to why and when!!! Quite addictive this hobby! I have also borrowed books from the library about Durham the villages and collieries crimes etc and found that on another branch to my family the Thompsons was a witness to a murder in 1860! at West Cornforth!! All dates/spouses/addresses matching! Can't wait to discover what else they all got upto!!

Thanks again

Judith

[Ron Leech]

I am searching and finding quite interesting that Llewellyns father had been married previously and had about 6 children together! but his second wife had also been married twice previously! Was this quite common in the 1880's?! Is there any way of searching divorces? Although it is possible that he/she had been widowed.

Much morely likely to have been widowed, divorce at that time was very unusal and generally restricted to the rich and famous. Bigamy seems to have more common than has been documented or of course couples just lived in sin.

It would be interesting to know what your researches find.

[Rjudith]

Hi, well thanks for that! As far as I know they were just part of the mining community and not in the rich and famous lists! Interesting to learn there was a lot of bigamy as it is family rumoured that on another branch a wife was a bigamist and this is the reason she left her husband and new baby! But until I find out more I am can't be sure! But it would be interesting if it had occurred on both sides of my family!!
I am awaiting a birth certificate to prove who Llewellyn's mother was and then I hope I have been tracing the correct family back through the census!! Other wise I have learnt so much about the wrong family and i would be really disappointed!!

I will post any news as to what I find!! Did they go to prison for bigamy?

[Ron Leech]

Did they go to prison for bigamy?
The bigamy law was enforced but with a mobile community it was difficult to find incidences. Sentences seemed to vary dependant upon the date of the offence they ranged from death, branding to transportation for 7 years in 1700s. Have a look at the Old Bailey site the last cases it lists were around 1833, most have mitigating circumstances and sentences were in the region of 3 to 6 months inprisonment

[Guy Etchells]

One must always remember the seven year rule when considering bigamy.
There was no offence if
A) One of the couple had been overseas for seven years whether the other knew there were alive or not.
B) If they were both in this country but had no contact for seven years and no knowledge that their spouse was still alive.
Cheers
Guy

[Ron Leech]

One must always remember the seven year rule when considering bigamy.
There was no offence if
A) One of the couple had been overseas for seven years whether the other knew there were alive or not.
B) If they were both in this country but had no contact for seven years and no knowledge that their spouse was still alive.
Cheers
Guy
It is interesting with that many of the Old Bailey cases that although the original partners were away for that period or longer they still found the person guilty, true the sentence was generally only 3 months duration.

[Rjudith]

Thank you. Very interesting!

[Rjudith]

Keep asking, more info to help you all the better. Good luck with your family history course.

Jo :)


Course going well Jo, learning so much from others. I am planning my first trip to County Hall I WILL FIND OUT ABOUT THESE RICHARDSON'S!!

Any tips?

[Ron Leech]

I am planning my first trip to County Hall I WILL FIND OUT ABOUT THESE RICHARDSON'S!!
Do let us know how you get on. Although not your own family it is very satisfying when all the pieces of the jigsaw come into place for someone else.

[Rjudith]

Thanks Ron, I have been reading up on 'how to plan your first research trip', so I don't get in there and not know what I am doing!! (still don't think I do!!).
So if anyone has any tips I would appreciate them!

[Mandie]

So if anyone has any tips I would appreciate them!

I went to County Hall for the first time a month or so ago. The staff show you how to use the microfiche, and how to find things. Take lots of breaks as the noise and staring at the fiche reader can get to you, and they have a nice coffee machine in the reception of County Hall.

Write down everything you want to find out on loose leaf paper and try to plan ahead which parishes you want to look for. If you're unsure ask one of the staff or one of the regulars will help you. A very nice man helped my partner and I with using the microfiche printer, as we pondered how it worked!

I took a couple of pencils, an eraser and lots of paper and made notes as I went along on the references. I got three bits of info, and am planning to return again and will probably get on better now I know how things work.

But, I found that the Clayport Library was a much nicer environment for census hunting and I found ancestors in the 1841 and 1851 there. They also have various other bits for family historians, like directories.

Good luck and happy hunting. :)

[Jo Simpsons]

It's nice to know how you are getting on. I am presuming you mean Durham County Hall, this link will show you what you can find there

http://www.durham.gov.uk/recordoffice/usp.nsf/pws/durham+record+office+-+durham+record+office+homepage

You can search what documents they hold and then have the ref, number to view it there. It might save you some time.
Time soon goes by so i would decide what you really want first, may be have a list to work down on.
I printed off sheets of Parish register Baptism forms, Marriage forms etc to write directly on. So if I get carried away I may not miss something and it's easy to type up information when I get back! I can't think where I got them from, I'll see if I can find it again.
Oh, and a pencil or two!
Good luck.
Jo :)

[Rjudith]

Thanks Jo and Mandie, I will try those tips. Sorry Mandie did you mean the new library up at the Gala theater? (up Claypath?).
Jo if you remember where you got those blank forms from i would be grateful if you could let me know. Ps I have just been given a family bible from 1834!!!! EXCITED it is very detailed (not the line I was starting with but still WOW!!). Thanks again. Judith

[Ron Leech]

I have just been given a family bible from 1834
Hopefully that will give you the actual dates of events in particular births rather than the Christening date. You still may find that the registrations don't quite match but then folks did not always rush to get children registered.

[Jo Simpsons]

Hi Judith,
Sorry it took so long to find the forms! This is where I downloaded them


http://www.staffs.ac.uk/schools/humanities_and_soc_sciences/census/freeform.htm

I had so many "bits" of paper with notes on that I couldn't find! I found this way helpful. I write down as it is, everything that is on the actual register.
Amazing to be given the family bible! What a treasure.
Good luck.
Jo :)

[Geoffers]

Sorry it took so long to find the forms! This is where I downloaded them
http://www.staffs.ac.uk/schools/humanities_and_soc_sciences/census/freeform.htm

Sorry to poke my nose in where it may not be wanted - but - the above forms will be very helpful to those researching 19th century parish registers (less so if using the annual copy which was made, Bishop's or Archdeacon's Transcripts) and census returns.

However, they are only really useful for the registers in use from 1813, when registers with printed columns were introduced. I mention this for anyone new to research who may get back to the turn of the 19th century and be thrown a little because the information is recorded in a manner which they are not expecting. Prior to 1813, information was recorded in various ways.

From about 1790-1812 freehand entries in registers may read something like;

"HOPKINS, Eleanor daughter of John and Eleanor (late BEAR) was born April 16th and publickly baptized May 10th."
(Taken from Parish Register for Aylsham, Norfolk 1811. See fiche 8, line 2, frame 5)

and for burials "1798 May 21st Steven and Elizabeth twin children of William GREENWOOD & Sarah (formerly NEALE) his wife - - infants" (Aylsham, Norfolk parish register, fiche 8, line 4, frame 4).

With burials, some registers will note deaths in unusual circumstances.

Again, apologies for butting in
Geoffers

[Rjudith]

Thanks Jo I will take those with me!
Geoffers you are not "butting" in! All help is appresiated and as I am really new to this I probably will find that I get confused with the way different things are detailed!
Judith

[Jo Simpsons]

Why would you apologies Geoffers :confused:
You always have something interesting to say :cool:
Jo :)

[Mandie]

Thanks Jo and Mandie, I will try those tips. Sorry Mandie did you mean the new library up at the Gala theater? (up Claypath?).
Jo if you remember where you got those blank forms from i would be grateful if you could let me know. Ps I have just been given a family bible from 1834!!!! EXCITED it is very detailed (not the line I was starting with but still WOW!!). Thanks again. Judith

Yes, I meant the Claypath not the Clayport! :D

[Rjudith]

Write down everything you want to find out on loose leaf paper and try to plan ahead which parishes you want to look for. If you're unsure ask one of the staff or one of the regulars will help you. A very nice man helped my partner and I with using the microfiche printer, as we pondered how it worked!
But, I found that the Clayport Library was a much nicer environment for census hunting and I found ancestors in the 1841 and 1851 there. They also have various other bits for family historians, like directories
Good luck and happy hunting. :)

I hope I find someone to help me too as I have never seen one before never mind use one!! I probably won't find anything I will be in awe!!

I am going to give that a go thanks Mandie, do I need to book to go there? As I am hoping to pop in soon.

[Mandie]

I am going to give that a go thanks Mandie, do I need to book to go there? As I am hoping to pop in soon.

You should probably book for County Hall, as the fiche readers seem to go quite quickly. We booked a couple of days in advance, and got in okay. As for the Claypath we just wandered in and they had a fiche reader free.

Don't worry about the technology though, someone will help you and the fiche readers themselves are much more user-friendly than the printer. :)

[Rjudith]

I hope to "wander in" soon so I will let you know! Thanks.