Loveridge/Sibthorpe

[Joc_42]

Hi I am trying to locate info on my grandfather's family.

The info I have is that his Mother was Mary-Ann Loveridge c1875 Lived in deptford until her death in April 1976 (death cert reg in Bromley???)

His Father William Sibthorpe c1884 deptford he died in 1962.

Mary-ann father was Thomas Sibthorpe, she had many brothers and sister the ones that we are sure of are Jumbo and Albert we have a few other names from the census' but nothing concrete at this stage.

Hale street Deptforf played a big part in our history with our family moving up and down the street across the census years.

I'm hoping that some may have more info that can help move us in the right direction,

Mary-Ann Married Benjamin Banks in 1897 in St Saviours Southwark we believe they had 10 children.

Any info or advice would be greatfully received.

Jo

[Joc_42]

ALSO WE HAVE CONNECTIONS TO THE BOWMAN FAMILY - WHO OWNED A FAIRGROUND AND TRAVELLED IN AND AROUND THE DEPTFORD AREA WELL INTO THE 50-60'S

[janbooth]

Hello Jo,

From Ancestry London Parish Registers:

19 April 1897 at St John the Evangelist, Walworth: Benjamin BANKS, 20, bachelor, Florist, 19 Mount Street, father William BANKS, Dock Labourer married Mary Ann LOVERIDGE, 18, spinster, 19 Mount Street, father Thomas Loveridge, Carpenter, Mary Ann made her mark & Benjamin signed. Witnesses: W LOVERIDGE, made his mark, & F. KEATS, who signed.

However, looking for Mary Ann before her marriage I have found extremely difficult. I am also somewhat confused when you say that your g-grandmother's name was Mary Ann Loveridge, but her father was Thomas SIBTHORPE and your grandfather's father was William SIBTHORPE. Do you mean that your grandfather was illegitimate and that his birth/baptismal records shown his father as William SIBTHORPE? I also can't find William SIBTHORPE in any census records altho I am using both FMP & Ancestry.

Can you clarify exactly what info you have and the source, plus what information you actually require and then perhaps the super sleuths on the Forum will be able to help you.

Janet

[Joc_42]

Hi Janet,

Many thanks for for that info.

With regards to Mary Ann I was having a very blonde moment hahah Her father was Thomas Loveridge. And William Sibthorpe father was Thomas Sibthorpe (sometimes misspelt as Sipthorpe) Many Apologies for the confusion.

I really need to source more info on both Thomas Loveridge and Thomas Sibthorpe as yet it is proving hard to trace them.

Jo

[janbooth]

Hello again Jo,

Gosh, both sides of your grandfather's family are proving extremely hard to trace. I have found a marriage record for what looks like a brother to your William on Ancestry's Parish Register Records, but again I can't seem to find him in census records prior to either his marriage or the 1911 census. Here are the details of his marriage:

15 May 1899 at St Paul Deptford Thomas SIBTHORPE, 21, bachelor, Costermonger, 16 Hale Street, father Thomas SIBTHORPE, Coal Porter married Charlotte Kate Ryan, 21, spinster, 36 Baildon Street, father James RYAN, deceased, Dock Labourer. Both signed their names and the Witnesses were James HARPER (I think!) who made his mark and Elizabeth Ann TOWLER (could perhaps be FOWLER).

Will keep looking

Janet

[Joc_42]

Thank you that will be great, sounds promising as a brother, is there any other info i can give you to help us???

Many thanks again

[janbooth]

No wonder I can't find the families prior to the 1911 census records - it looks as if Ancestry are missing some of the records. Enumeration District 3 of St Paul Deptford Central (which contains the even numbers of Hale Street as I found out using FMP) is missing!! Looking at the odd numbers of Hale St (which Ancestry does have), I came across a Henry LOVERIDGE, aged 20, Hawker, living at 13 Hale St with wife Louisa. I have found their marriage on Ancestry via the Parish Records and it states his father was Adolphus LOVERIDGE, Hawker, and Henry was living at 50 Hale Street at the time of his marriage in 1899. Looked on the 1901 census for 50 Hale Street using FMP and came up with this:

Benjamin BANKS Head Mar 24 Cable Maker Telegraph Deptford
Mary do Wife Mar 21 do
Benjamin do Son 2 do
Albert do Son 0 do
George do Brother 13 do

Adolphus LOVERIDGE Head Mar 49 Hawker Greengrocer Northampton
Sophia do Wife Mar 48 Notting Hill LOndon
John do Son S 15 Hawker Greengrocer Deptford
Emily do Daur 11 do
Norah do Daur 6 do
+ 1 servant

Shown as 2 separate households in 50 Hale Street.

When looking for previous LOVERIDGE marriages, I remember seeing the one for Adolphus and his father was a Thomas, but he was described as a Hawker and not a Carpenter as on Mary's marriage record and as there was 28 years difference in their ages I sort of discarded it. However, as both Mary BANKS and Adolphus are living in the same house in the 1901, it suggests that perhaps they are related in some way.

Another SIBTHORPE marriage at St Paul Deptford:

8 July 1894 Michael CONNOR, 21, bachelor, General Dealer 45 Bronze Street, father Patrick CONNOR, Labourer married Emma SIBTHORPE, 21, spinster, 45 Bronze Street, father Thomas SIBTHORPE, Coal Porter. Emma signed, Michael made his mark and he witnesses were a Robert & Mary Ann PAGET.

Janet

[Mutley]

There are some army pension records on the Ancesspit for William Sipthorpe.
I cannot read the mother' name, brother is Thomas, wife is Mary Ann of 73 Hale Street.
Mary Ann Banks is mentioned. I think there are some children's names.

It is quite difficult to work out but before I try, can you tell me if you already have it?

[Mutley]

Should anyone wish to help Jo further I would suggest clicking on her user name and looking at the previous threads regarding the families.

[janbooth]

Yet more SIBTHORPEs:

Mary Ann PAGET was Mary Ann SIBTHORPE prior to her marriage:

5 August 1899 at St Paul Deptford Robert William PAGET, 22, bachelor, Labourer, 3 Coppers Lane, father William PAGET, Gas Fitter married Mary Ann SIBTHORPE, 18, spinster, 3 Coppers Lane, father Thomas SIBTHORPE, Coal Porter. Both signed their names and witnesses were William GULL & Elizabeth PAGET.

27 January 1910 at St Paul Deptford James SMEDLEY, 31, bachelor, Coster, 27 Addey Street, father Henry SMEDLEY deceased, Sieve Maker married Harriet SIBTHORPE, 30, spinster, 27 Addey Street, father Thomas SIBTHORPE deceased, Coal Porter. Both made their mark Witnesses were Richard Edward FINCH & Elizabeth Anne TURNER who made her mark.

Have to go out now, but will try to find some more tomorrow.

Janet

[janbooth]

Oh well spotted Mutley!! I think the address is actually 13 Hale Street which is the home address he was discharged to. It looks as if he married Mary Ann BANKS who was a widow on 24 Dec 1918 at Greenwich and she already had 3 children Mary Ann Susan BANKS bap 4 August 1907, Stephen BANKS born 14 March 1914 and Mary Ann BANKS born 10 ? 1916.

Janet

[Joc_42]

Mutley, yes that is my ggf and we do have those records thank you, I appreciate the assistance. Any further help would be great.

Janet I don't how you have found these I have looked and looked for over 2 yrs.

James Smedley was a witness at maryann and williams wedding we always wondered how he fitted in now we know!! so that harriet is def on of ours !! A breakthrough I think??? So looks as If Harriet sibthorpe was poss william;s sister??? He also called his daughter harriet.

We wasn't aware of the 3 coopers lane address but that has come up twice now with Lizzy(BGmem) finding a 1881 census entry for Thomas Tibthorpe - (mis-transcribed??)

Thank you so much again

Jo

[Joc_42]

Janet - Steven is a new one we thought there was a sophia around that time twins maybe?

[Lizzy9]

James Smedley was a witness at maryann and williams wedding we always wondered how he fitted in now we know!! so that harriet is def on of ours !! A breakthrough I think??? So looks as If Harriet sibthorpe was poss william;s sister??? He also called his daughter harriet.
We wasn't aware of the 3 coopers lane address but that has come up twice now with Lizzy(BGmem) finding a 1881 census entry for Thomas Tibthorpe - (mis-transcribed??) Jo

Hi Jo, it's Copperas Lane. The family I found for you in the census were living at 3, Copperas Lane so must be the same clan!!?

I found the two baptisms also, but didn't post as I wasn't sure at that point if they were yours. There was also a third one I found - I'll go look now and post it in a bit.

[Lizzy9]

Marriage 8th July 1894 , St Paul, Deptford.

Emma Sibthorpe age 21 spinster, father Thomas Sibthorpe (Coal Porter)
Michael Connor age 21, bachelor (gen. dealer) father Patrick Connor (Labourer)
Both gave residence as 45, Bronze St.
Witnesses: Robert W Pagett and Mary Ann Pagett.
Emma signed, Michael left his mark

[Lizzy9]

I found the two baptisms also, but didn't post as I wasn't sure at that point if they were yours. .

Sorry, I meant I found the two marriages

[Lizzy9]

I wonder if this is Thomas' (William's father) marriage ?

Aug 30th 1869 St Paul, Deptford

Thomas Sibthorpe, full age, bachelor of this parish, father: Thomas Sibthorpe (Labourer)
Emma Goodey a minor, spinster of this parish, father: George Goodey (Labourer)
Witnesses: Joseph and Charlotte Thompson.
Thomas signed, Emma left her mark, both witnesses left their mark

[Lizzy9]

I'm making a bit of a pig's ear of this thread, sorry |oopsredfa, I've just noticed I've duplicated the Connor/Sibthorpe marriage already posted by Jan.

Another Sibthorp(e) marriage, at St Paul Deptford.

June 24th 1912

Eliza Sibthorpe 19 spinster, 29, Crossfield Street, Thomas Sibthorpe (Dock Labourer) was entered as father, but has been crossed out?
Henry Thomas Dickman (Labourer) 27 bachelor, same address as Eliza, father: Harry Dickman (Labourer)
Witnesses: Charlotte Ann (looks like) Targett and John Dawson.
Bride, groom and witnesses all signed.

[Lizzy9]

I wonder if this is Thomas' (William's father) marriage ?

Aug 30th 1869 St Paul, Deptford

Thomas Sibthorpe, full age, bachelor of this parish, father: Thomas Sibthorpe (Labourer)
Emma Goodey a minor, spinster of this parish, father: George Goodey (Labourer)
Witnesses: Joseph and Charlotte Thompson.
Thomas signed, Emma left her mark, both witnesses left their mark

A marriage from igi. This couple could be the witnesses at Thomas and Emma's wedding.
Joseph Thomas Thompson to Charlotte Sibthorp, 14/8/1865, St Paul Deptford

[Joc_42]

Excellent Lizzy Thx, going to see my mum tomorrow to try and put all this info together and try and make some sense and order out of it.

If you happen to find anymore pls feel free to pass it on

Many Thanks

Jo

[janbooth]

And another one of the witnesses at Mary Ann's wedding was an E DICKMAN, so that looks like Eliza nee Sibthorpe. Looking for the baptisms of Benjamin & Mary Ann's children have come up with these from London Parish Registers:

14 May 1899 at St Paul Deptford (born 1 April 1899) Benjamin BANKS son of Benjamin & Mary Ann, 52 Hale Street, Coster
20 June 1900 at Christ Church Deptford (born 6 June) Albert Pretoria BANKS son of Benjamin & Mary Ann, 52 Hale Street, Coster
17 August 1902 at Christ Church Deptford John Henry BANKS so of Benjamin & Mary Ann, 52 Hale Street, Coster

Have also found the birth registration for Mary Ann BANKS born in 1916 according to William's Army Records: Mary A BANKS, Dec qtr 1916 at Greenwich reg district, vol 1d, page 1626, mother's maiden name LOVERIDGE. However, I can't find a birth registration for either Stephen or Mary Ann Susan although there is a Susan BANKS shown in the 1911 census where Benjamin & Mary Ann are living at 13 Hale Street with children Benjamin, John, Susan & Thomas and William SIPTHORPE described as a single Assistant, aged 27, Hawker born Deptford. No wonder I couldn't find a birth registration for Stephen - looking closer at the Army records and your information that Benjamin & Mary Ann had a Sophia, the Army records show it is Sophia who was born in 1914 - sorry about that. My only excuse is that the writing is pretty awful - grovel, grovel!! Sophia's birth registration is the June qtr 1914 at Greenwich reg district.

Janet

[janbooth]

I think Lizzy could well be correct with the marriage of Thomas SIBTHORPE to Emma Goodey as on the 1901 census is:

RG13/527, folio 66, page 8
14 Hale Street, St Paul Deptford

John WALLIS Head M 49 Labourer (Dock) Kent Deptford
Emma do Wife M 47 do do
William SILTHORPE Son S 16 Van Boy Carm do do
Eliza do Daur 7 do do

And living at No 12 is a Joseph LOVERIDGE, aged 43, Dock Labourer, born Peterborough, his wife Esther and their family. The LOVERIDGE family do seem to have a Northamptonshire connection. Will continue searching.

Janet

[janbooth]

Hi Jo,

Given that your LOVERIDGE family have Romany (AND seem to have Northamptonshire) connections, how about this record from the Northamptonshire Marriage Index 1837-60:

Thomas LOVERIDGE, of the parish, Caldicote, bachelor, full age, Gipsy Pedlar, father William LOVERIDGE, Gipsy Pedlar married Zilla LOVERIDGE, of the parish, Caldicote, full age, spinster, Gipsey Pedlar, father James LOVERIDGE, Gipsy Pedlar on 18 November 1844 at Towcester, by banns. There seem to be quite a few LOVERIDGE intermarriages at Towcester around this time and the fathers seem to be classified as either Gipsy Pedlars or Travellers their names being Soloman a Basket Maker, William a Gipsy Pedlar, James a Gipsy Pedlar and Thomas a Gipsy Pedlar. What do you think?? Are any of the names familiar??

Janet

[Joc_42]

Hi Janet,

Just trying to work our way through all the info you to see how it matches up.

So how would we find out if emma goodey was williams mother???

Also on checking the Tibthorpe on the 1881 we are quite sure (well almost sure if that is all correct that they are our family). But will cannot see the original as GR does not have the 1881 cenus???

LOVERIDGE
Its poss that the the above is Thomas' father but we are not aware of a northamptonshire connection other than it was noted as adolphus loveridge birth place on some census but we are not sure how he fits into our family.

[Joc_42]

Thomas LOVERIDGE, of the parish, Caldicote, bachelor, full age, Gipsy Pedlar,

Would full age of been 21?

[Joc_42]

Me again sorry.

Ok so looking at this Thomas Loveridge was still alive in 1899 but by 1910 when Harriet got married he was deceased. I have checked all the records I have here and I can't find his death, will it still be in the parish records??

[Lizzy9]

I think Lizzy could well be correct with the marriage of Thomas SIBTHORPE to Emma Goodey as on the 1901 census is:

RG13/527, folio 66, page 8
14 Hale Street, St Paul Deptford
John WALLIS Head M 49 Labourer (Dock) Kent Deptford
Emma do Wife M 47 do do
William SILTHORPE Son S 16 Van Boy Carm do do
Eliza do Daur 7 do do
Janet

1911 Census Looks like Emma and John have been economical with the truth ;) Address: 48 Hale Street, St Paul Deptford
RG14PN2625 RG78PN89 RD28 SD2 ED2 SN45 (Crown copyright, in care of TNA)
John Walliss [sic] 1851, dealer, Deptford
Emma wife 1853, married 21 years, London Middlesex
Eliza Walliss dau 18 yrs, Domestic Servant, Greenwich

[Joc_42]

1911 Census Looks like Emma and John have been economical with the truth ;)

Thx Lizzy not sure I know what you mean, but heres what I thought I'd worked out today.

I found a death for a thomas sibthorpe in apr qtr of 1889. but then on both his childrens ,marriages in 1899 he shows as still being alive???? (puzzled!)

Do you think that Emma Wallis was in fact Emma Goodey??? as that would explain why william and eliza were living with John Wallis on 1901 census.
I hope that makes sense as i've been chasing my tail all day!!!

Jo

[Lizzy9]

I found a death for a thomas sibthorpe in apr qtr of 1889. but then on both his childrens ,marriages in 1899 he shows as still being alive???? (puzzled!)

It's not uncommon for a deceased father not to be recorded as such.

Do you think that Emma Wallis was in fact Emma Goodey??? as that would explain why william and eliza were living with John Wallis on 1901 census.
I hope that makes sense as i've been chasing my tail all day!!!

Yes, Jo it looks like Emma was living with John Wallis, either co-habiting or married to him (but I cannot find a marriage). The reason I say they were economical with the truth is: in 1911 they say they've been married for 21 years and have recorded Eliza's surname as Wallis(s), when infact she was a Sibthorpe.
Jo

Hope this helps to clarify things.

[Joc_42]

Thx Lizzy it certainly does because they is what we were thinking, I couldn't find a marriage either but I also couldn't find a death for Emma.

I'm so grateful and aft 2yrs of searching you and Janet have helpful us piece together so much info - My mum is really happy, so a big thank you again.

Jo

[Lizzy9]

June 24th 1912

Eliza Sibthorpe 19 spinster, 29, Crossfield Street, Thomas Sibthorpe (Dock Labourer) was entered as father, but has been crossed out?
Henry Thomas Dickman (Labourer) 27 bachelor, same address as Eliza, father: Harry Dickman (Labourer)
Witnesses: Charlotte Ann (looks like) Targett and John Dawson.
Bride, groom and witnesses all signed.

It's possible John Wallis was Eliza's father, if her parents' weren't married that would explain why her name was Sibthorpe, would also explain why Thomas Sibthorpe was crossed out in the father's box on marriage parish entry.

I'm pleased for you and your Mum that you now feel you are getting somewhere. Always happy to help. I'll keep looking and if I find anything else I'll get back to you.

[Joc_42]

Thank you so much I'll keep my fingers crossed you find more you obv know where to look. Although we did already have some (although very little) of this info we have never been able to make it fit together before this weekend.

I'll ring Mum and tell her about that because that would make sense why it was crossed out.

:-)

[Lizzy9]

Hi Jo,

You mentioned you are also researching the Bowman family who were fairground workers, if you aren't familiar with this site you may find it interesting.

http://www.nfa.dept.shef.ac.uk/

[Joc_42]

Very interesting.thx Lizzy.

[richardstree]

I too am looking into Loveridge and have PM Joc with some information, then thought I might just add some of that to this thread.

I am researching Albert Loveridge DOB approx 1900 born unknown fathers name Thomas Loveridge (Labourer)
He married Ethel Mary Ellingford-Baxter DOB 8.2.1908 born Grimsby
They married at St Pauls Deptford 25.12.1924
At the time of their wedding Albert lived at 23 Hales Street and Ethel at 5 Hales Street
Albert is documented as a Street Hawker on my FIL birth cert 23.6.1929

Witnesses at the wedding were Annie Clara Banks and Alfred Ellingford Baxter

Having read through this thread I have seen that there were Banks on Hales Street and wondered if this name is of help to anyone.

[janbooth]

Jo,

Here is the full transcription of the 1881 TIBTHORPE census record for you:

RG11/702, folio 91, page 1
1? Copperas Lane, St Paul Deptford

Thomas TIBTHORPE Head Mar 72 Labourer Peckham Kent
Emma do Mother Mar 82 Camberwell
Mary Ann do Daur 10 Scholar Deptford
Emma do Daur 8 do do
Thomas do Son 3 do do
Harriett do Daur 14 months do

Not sure I understand the ages or the relationships but this is from the actual census sheet.

Janet

[janbooth]

Here are Thomas, Emma & Mary Ann in the 1871 census of St Paul Deptford:

RG10/742, folio 16, page 26
21 Addey Street

Thomas SIBTHORPE Head Mar 19 Labourer General Old Kent Rd Surrey
Emma do Wife Mar 17 Labourer's wife Peckham Surrey
Mary Ann do Daur 5 months Deptford Kent

I think the death registration you have found for Thomas SIBTHORPE in 1889 is pretty likely to be the correct one - it is in the correct registration district and is the correct age for your Thomas.

I can't find Emma in the 1891 census at the moment under either SIBTHORPE or WALLIS.

Janet

[Joc_42]

Thx Janet.

Thx great to get a 2nd opinion on Thomas' death. I know I looked for Emma last night couldn't find her or a marriage.

Maybe she went back to the Goodey Family????

[Joc_42]

Hi All,

Just a quickie, was wondering which certs would be best to move us forward even further?

I was thinking William Sibthorpe Birth Cert and Thomas Sibthorpe and Emma Goodey Marriage cert???

On The loveridge side I really have no idea maybe Mary-ann Loveridge Birth Cert ???

Really don't want to order them unless they will be useful hence asking for a 2nd opinion.

Many Thanks

[Lizzy9]

Hi Jo,

See here
http://www.british-genealogy.com/forums/showthread.php?43847-Information-on-BMD-Certificates

It explains what info should be on a birth, marriage or death certificate.

If you need help finding the GRO ref needed to order cert's, do get back to us.

[Joc_42]

Thx U Lizzy.

[richardstree]

Joc 42

Perhaps when you speak to your mum or aunt they may be able to shed some light on the name of Mary Ann/Alberts mother.

[Joc_42]

Hi

Was wondering if anyone would be able to look up the gRO ref for the birth of mary ann loveridge 19/4/1875 pls. It would be in the dept parish records I would imagine and I don't have access to them and wanted to order before the weekend.

Thanks in advance.

Hi Richardstree

Not sure at the moment but we are going to send off for her birth cert so i'll keep you posted.

[Lizzy9]

Hi Jo, how do you know the exact date of birth of Mary Ann?

[Joc_42]

ermmm I think it was on her death cert or marriage cert not sure which sorry.

[Lizzy9]

Jo, this is the only Mary Ann L. birth record I can find around 1875 in the Greater London area. Unfortunately it doesn't match with your info.

Mary Ann Loveridge, 1st qrt 1874, Poplar, Greater London. Vol 1c page 678

[Joc_42]

Arrrh maybe I got the date wrong then, the thing is when she passed away there was a confusion over her age as she claimed to 106 but on her death cert she was aged at 101.

Also what does [sic] mean on the census records??

[Lizzy9]

Also what does [sic] mean on the census records??

[sic] after a name indicates that's the way a name has been spelt, ie not necessarily a mistranscription, for instance the name Sibthorpe may have been written as Sipthorp.

[Joc_42]

Arh I see.

Is the only way to find out if that is the correct birth by ordering the cert??

thx Jo

[Lizzy9]

Yes. You can request the cert is only sent if the father's name matches your info, in which case you'll be charged only £3 (I think that's right, I've never used this method myself as I've had no cause to) I'm sure someone with experience of this method of ordering cert's will correct me if I'm wrong.

[Joc_42]

Thx you for all your help.

[janbooth]

Jo,

According to census and her marriage record info, Mary Ann was born c1879/80 in Deptford which comes under Greenwich reg district. There are no birth registrations I can find for her around these dates in that reg district on the GRO, but there are these 2 records which might just be her:

Mary Ann LEVERIDGE registered Dec qtr 1879 at Marylebone reg district, vol 1a, page 599
Mary Ann F LEVERIDGE registered March qtr 1878 at Whitechapel reg district, vol 1c, page 348

However, we can discount the one registered in Marylebone as she appears on the London Parish Register baptisms and her parents are Henry & Jane. I am also not too sure about the Mary Ann F LEVERIDGE as a Mary Ann Fluistan LEVERIDGE appears on the London Parish Register baptisms, admittedly not until 1883 but late baptisms are common enough, and her parents are John & Emma - oh dear back to square one!

I may just have found something in the 1881 census, though. Looking for Thomas LOVERIDGEs, I have come across this one in the 1881 census of Rotherfield Peppard, Oxfordshire (RG11/1489, folio 4, page 1):

New Mills

Thomas LOVERIDGE Visitor Mar 45 Carpenter Oxfordshire Whitchurch

He is visiting a Jesse BARTON, Paper Cutter? and family. He is about the correct age & profession - now where is his wife?? Guess what, I can't find him on other census records - why doesn't that surprise me. Will look again after lunch.

Janet

[loulou1]

hi Janet,
I am Joc mum,cant thank you enough for all your help.

This is the brickwall we are coming up with all the time .First they are there then we cant find them anywhere.
I did find a birth for a Polly Loveridge born in Whitchurch 1881census.
It was said that she would answer to both names Maryann and Polly. Also her daughter was named Maryann but all the family thought her name was Polly .

Any answers please.

Loulou1

[janbooth]

Hi Joc's Mum,

No wonder you are tearing your hair out with the LOVERIDGE family!! These are the details of the Polly you found in the 1881 census - I think!!

RG11/701, folio 102, page 23
25 Stanhope Street, St Paul, Deptford

Thomas LOVERIDGE Head Mar 22 Pedlar Barnes Surrey
Elizabeth do Wife Mar 21 Budeham Kent
Polly do Daur 1 Mitcham Surrey

Ancestry have transcribed her place of birth as Whitehouse, Surrey. Is this the one you are thinking of?? I can't find a Polly with the place of birth as Whitchurch.

Is it possible that Thomas LOVERIDGE recreated himself as Adolphus LOVERIDGE? The reason I ask is that I can find no trace of this Thomas, Elizabeth & Polly after the 1881 census, but I CAN find an Adolphus LOVERIDGE in the 1891 census of St Paul Deptford living at 3 Stanhope Street and with a son Jumbo which if I remember correctly going right back to Jo's first few posts is the name of one of Mary Ann's brothers - have I remembered correctly?? Anyway, here is the 1891 census entry:

RG12/494, folio , page 34
3 Stanhope Street

Adolphus LOVERIDGE Head Mar 28 Hotel Cook Deptford Kent
Elizabeth do Wife Mar 34 do do
Polly do Daur 13 do do
Jumbo do Son 6 do do
Adolphus do Son 10 months do do

Guess what - I can't find this family in the 1901 census!! Hopefully more to come.

Janet

[loulou1]

Hi Janet,

Yes that is the one my mistake sorry. He dob on her death cert was stated as 19/4/1875 bromley.

With regards to Thomas we believe he died in 1889 and wondered if Adolphus maybe a brother took on the family??

We have puzzled over this for over 2 yrs now and have lots of info but we just can't piece it together - a fresh pair of eyes is very welcome.

One thing I cant work out is my nan said she came from a big family but so far we haven't found many siblings at all???

Lou

[janbooth]

The more I look at the records (and boy do I have a headache now), the more I am inclined to believe that Thomas and Adolphus are one and the same. The 1901 census shows an Adolphus LOVERIDGE living in the same house as Mary Ann BANKS nee LOVERIDGE now with a wife Sophia (what happened to Elizabeth ??), aged about the same, different place of birth in every census, Hawker/Greengrocer, with children John (Jumbo?) aged 16, Emily aged 11 and Norah aged 6. Thomas LOVERIDGE, Carpenter, does not seem to exist except in the 1881 census and on Mary Ann's marriage record - so where the heck is he. There are no LOVERIDGEs in the 1841 census of Whitchurch, Oxfordshire - I have looked through each census sheet to see if Thomas was there. One assumes there is a connection of some sort between Adolphus and Mary Ann as they are living in the same house. There is a death registration for an Adolphus LOVERIDGE in Croydon reg district 1893, aged 2, which would fit with Adolphus jnr in the 1891 census as I cannot find him in subsequent census records.

Adolphus LOVERIDGE is living at 44 Reginald Road, Deptford in the 1911 census, now born c1854 in West Bromwich!! Wife Sophia is born c1854 in Shepherds Bush and Emily & Norah are still living with them. Adolphus & Sophia have supposedly been married 36 years, therefore married around 1875.

No scrub that supposition - there appear to be two different Adolphus LOVERIDGEs - as using Findmypast searching for Adolphus (Hotel Cook with daughter Polly) in the 1891 census of Stanhope St, it has found me the Adolphus (Hawker with wife Sophia) in the 1891 census living at 50 Hale Street with different children to the Adolphus in Stanhope Street - my headache has just got worse again. Adolphus at Hale Street in the 1891 is now born c1857 in Wales, wife Sophia c1852 in Nottingham, son Thomas c1872 Shepherds Bush, son Henry c1881 Paddock Wood, son John c1885 at Deptford and daughter Emily c1889 at Deptford. I also forgot to put in the folio number for Adolphus (Hotel Cook) in the 1891 census which is folio 117 - sorry about that. Also interesting that this Adolphus and family are living in the same house as Benjamin BANKS and his family in the 1891 census - I didn't spot that earlier.

Right, back to basics again. If Adolphus jnr's (born c1890) death was registered in Croydon in 1893, perhaps Adolphus (Hotel Cook) and wife Elizabeth are living there in the 1901 census. Will look for them now.

Janet

[loulou1]

We know how you feel it's like a merry go round!!

So do you think they might reg someones death even if they haven't died and just want a new start - not sure if you know the history of deptford at that time but it was pretty notorious so would be feasible.

Lovely hope it comes up with something.

[janbooth]

I'm now looking for any siblings for Mary Ann LOVERIDGE and have come up with:

Born 17 Nov, bap 3 December 1882 at Christ Church Deptford Adolphus LOVERIDGE son of Elizabeth & Thomas, 3 Stanhope St, Basket Maker
Born 4 Oct, bap 21 October 1883 at Christ Church, Deptford Sophia Fameridge LOVERIDGE daughter Thomas & Elizabeth, 14 Stanhope Street, Hawker

The Adolphus above looks to have died soon after his birth, as there is a death registration for him in the Dec qtr 1882 at Greenwich reg district. I can't however find one for Sophia but nor can I find her in the 1891 census - here we go again!!

Must go and cook some tea now for my long suffering husband but will try to search some more over the weekend if not before. I still can't find Jumbo in the 1901 census either nor any birth or baptismal records for him.

Janet

[Joc_42]

Oh wow thx u thats great - how are you finding these???

Thx u Janet we so appreciate all the help that you are giving us.

What certs do you think we should order to further our search?

I know husbands get a raw deal when it comes to geneology its addictive I haven't spoen to mine in days hahaha.

Thx again :-)

[Lizzy9]

Oh wow thx u thats great - how are you finding these???

Hi Jo, Ancestry has a collection of London births, marriages and deaths from parish registers.

Here's another for you. St Paul Deptford, May 5th 1895.

Caelente Loveridge parents : Eliza and Thomas (Hawker) of 50, Hale St.

[Lizzy9]

Maybe Caelente isn't born of the same Thomas and Elizabeth, which confuses the issue further as it would mean there were two Thomas and Eliza's/Elizabeth's in Deptford at the same time, oh heck!

Born Aug 16th 1895 baptised Aug 30th - Sarah of Thomas (Labourer) and Elizabeth Loveridge, 5, Stanhope Street.

[Lizzy9]

St Paul Deptford Henry Loveridge born 25th Feb 1897, baptised Mar 21st, parents : Thomas (Hawker) and Elizabeth, 52, Hale Street.

[Lizzy9]

St Paul Deptford, Margaret May Loveridge born 4th May 1899, baptised May 21st 1899, parents : Thomas (Costermonger) and Elizabeth, 54. Hale Street.

[Lizzy9]

Maybe Caelente isn't born of the same Thomas and Elizabeth, which confuses the issue further as it would mean there were two Thomas and Eliza's/Elizabeth's in Deptford at the same time, oh heck!

This would appear to be the marriage of the above Thomas and Eliza.

Christ Church Deptford Jul 1st 1894, Thomas Loveridge and Eliza Carrow. Thomas' address 50, Hale Street, Eliza's 45, Bronze Street. Thomas' father Adolphus (Hawker), Eliza's, Alfred (Hawker)

[Joc_42]

Thx Lizzy,

This is a diffent thomas as the marriage is too late at Mary ann was born in 1875, they r such a confusing family

hence our difficulty, we cant get access to the parish records on ancestry - we have to go to the library for that.

Thx so much for looking for us.

[Lizzy9]

Thx Lizzy,

This is a diffent thomas as the marriage is too late at Mary ann was born in 1875, they r such a confusing family

Yes, Jo this Thomas was the father of Caelente, and son of Adolphus. I suspect your Thomas and Alophus are related maybe brothers, but trying to prove it ..........well!!

.

What do you think of the baptisms I posted, are they yours?

[Lizzy9]

Jo, I've got a bit lost with your Loveridges' they are so confusing. Do you know for certain that Mary Ann's parents were Thomas and Elizabeth? If so, can you say how you know?

Thanks

[Joc_42]

I think they were too. but its hard to link them !! I think as thomas died in 1889 (not confirmed) I think adolphus took in his family not sure what happened to his wife though????

Yes I def do. add's are right.

[Joc_42]

Lizzy that one crossed over.

No we know her father was Thomas but are summising elizabeth cos we couldnt find an alternative.

[Joc_42]

Now i'm confused again cos if Thomas dead how can he be fathering children??!!! something not adding up!

[Lizzy9]

Exactly, that's why I asked the question. I think more work needs to be done regarding Mary Ann, maybe we should go back to the beginning.

[Joc_42]

Yes maybe your right.

We keep doing that and we get no further, its so frustrating. We need to find her birth and then we might get somewhere, beginning to think the DOB on her death cert not right. But Mum says she def celebrated her birthday 19th of April.

I'm so confused.

[Joc_42]

I think those baptisms are likely to be MaryAnn's brother Thomas' children. Although you said his father was Adolphus so maybe not!!! Grrrrrrr araghhhhh just when I think I've worked it out another spanner in the works.

[Lizzy9]

I think those baptisms are likely to be MaryAnn's brother Thomas' children. Although you said his father was Adolphus so maybe not!!! Grrrrrrr araghhhhh just when I think I've worked it out another spanner in the works.

You may be right Jo, they could be her brother's children (did her brother marry an Elizabeth?) Adolphus was the father of Thomas who married Eliza, we have two different couples here, Thomas and Elizabeth and Thomas and Eliza.

[Joc_42]

We are sure that she did, but have no proof at this stage. except for hearsay.

But all the family named there 1st born son aft the father we have been told.

Must get some sleep.

Thx u again.

Jo

[Lizzy9]

Jo, I can't find a death for Thomas Loveridge in 1889, are you getting confused (easily done with your Loveridges'/Sibthorpes'). A Thomas Sibthorpe died in 1889.

[Lizzy9]

1911.

Tom Loveridge 46 Hawker born Barns Comenon? - Barnes Common probably!
Elizabeth wife 50 born Croydon married 35 years? (something doesn't add up!) either they are older than they said, or they haven't been married for 35 yrs.
Henry son 14 Deptford
Robert son 10 Deptford
RG14PN2625 RG78PN89 RD28 SD2 ED2 SN49 (Crown copyright in care of TNA)
50, Hale Street, St Paul Deptford, Greenwich, London.

[Lizzy9]

And, guess what? There's no birth records on the GRO index for Henry, or Robert.

[Lizzy9]

Forgot to say, in 1911 Tom and Elizabeth had had 16 children, 11 had died, 5 still living.

[Lizzy9]

There's an Elias Loveridge on the 1911 census living at 13 Giffin Street Deptford, born Newport, Monmouthshire, a hawker flower seller. Could he be Thomas' father, I wonder?
RG14PN2626 RG78PN89 RD28 SD2 ED3 SN45 (Crown copyright, in care of TNA)

[Lizzy9]

1871 Census. Living: Gypsy Tent end of Alexandra Road, Chelsea, Hammersmith.

Elias Loveridge 33, Basket Maker, born Dudley
(can't read his wife's name) looks like Le Rosa 25, Lister? Warwick
Thomas 4, Surrey Barnes (the Thomas above [1911] was born Barnes Common)
Fanny 3, Sherborne? Dorset
Alverdine 6 months, Sherborne.

Class: RG10; Piece: 59; Folio: 71; Page: 5 (Crown copyright, in care of TNA)

[Lizzy9]

1881. Stanhope Street, Deptford St Paul, Greenwich
Elia [sic] Loveridge 37, Staffordshire, Pedlar
William son 5, Uxbridge
Fanny dau 11, Peterborough

And, living next door.

Adolphus Loveridge 28, born Notting Hill (Basket Maker)
Sophia wife 29 Notting Hill
Thomas son 9 Notting Hill
son 9 months (sorry I can't make out his name) Deptford
RG11; Piece: 701; Folio: 107; Page: 34 (Crown copyright, in care of TNA)

[Lizzy9]

1881, 25, Stanhope Street, Deptford St Paul, Greenwich.
Thomas Loveridge 22, born Barnes (there's at least a Barnes theme running) Pedlar
Elizabeth wife 21 ? Kent
Polly dau 1 Whitehouse, Surrey
RG11; Piece: 701; Folio: 102; Page: 23 (Crown copyright, in care of TNA)

[Lizzy9]

1881, 25, Stanhope Street, Deptford St Paul, Greenwich.
Thomas Loveridge 22, born Barnes (there's at least a Barnes theme running) Pedlar
Elizabeth wife 21 ? Kent
Polly dau 1 Whitehouse, Surrey
RG11; Piece: 701; Folio: 102; Page: 23 (Crown copyright, in care of TNA)

[janbooth]

Hi Jo & Jo's Mum and Lizzy,

From all the records I have looked at so far, I think Mary Ann's father Thomas is probably (and I stress probably) the one living in Stanhope Street. All the Hale Street LOVERIDGEs seem to be connected to Adolphus & Sophia and my current line of reasoning would suggest that perhaps Stanhope Street Thomas is the younger brother of Hale Street Adolphus BUT there do not seem to be any birth or marriage records to definitely prove this that I have found at the moment.

The 1881 census record of Thomas & Elizabeth at 25 Stanhope Street shows them with a daughter Polly which Jo's Mum says Mary Ann LOVERIDGE was also known by and I have the 1891 census in Stanhope St (where Thomas now appears to be called Adolphus?? and a Hotel Cook) with daughter Polly and a son Jumbo (whom Jo says is the brother of Mary Ann aka Polly) plus an Adolphus aged 10 months.

I think that the baptism of Sarah LOVERIDGE that you have found, Lizzy, is hopefully a sister of Mary Ann (correct parents - I think - and the address of Stanhope Street) but why can't I find any of this family in the 1901 census - they can't all have died surely!!

Question for Jo & Jo's Mum - do you know the correct christian name for Jumbo because I cannot find any trace of him under that name except for the 1891 census record, so presumably Jumbo was a nickname. I can find no birth registrations for any of the children baptised to Thomas & Elizabeth of Stanhope Street that I have found so far and looking for the birth registrations for any of the adults is a nightmare and their places of birth are different in every census record as are their ages - aargh!

I have found a death registration in the September qtr 1900 at Dartford reg district, vol 2a, page 347 for a Thomas LOVERIDGE, aged 38. This seems to be the most likely one I can find - always assuming that his death was indeed registered.

Janet

[janbooth]

Lizzy,

Way back at the beginning of this thread I found the parish register record of the marriage of Mary Ann LOVERIDGE & Benjamin BANKS in 1897 at St John the Evangelist, Walworth, wherein it stated that Mary Ann's father was Thomas LOVERIDGE, Carpenter. Both Mary Ann & Benjamin were resident at 19 Mount Street. One of the witnesses was a W LOVERIDGE who made his/her mark but again so far I have been unable to trace him/her without a christian name. Apart from this marriage record the only other mention I have found of a Thomas LOVERIDGE who is a Carpenter is in the 1881 census of Rotherfield Peppard, Oxfordshire (RG11/1489, folio 4, page 1):

New Mills

Thomas LOVERIDGE Visitor Mar 45 Carpenter Oxfordshire Whitchurch

but of course, needless to say, I can find no other trace of this Thomas so far. The other theory which springs to mind is that Mary Ann was illegitimate and perhaps the grandchild of Thomas LOVERIDGE, Carpenter which is just feasible but in the absence of any birth registrations, marriage registrations etc it is almost impossible to prove her antecedents. No wonder Jo & her Mum are tearing their hair out.

Another question for Jo & Jo's Mum - do you have the marriage certificate for William SIBTHORPE & Mary Ann BANKS? It would be interesting to see the details of her father on this marriage certificate to see if it ties in with the details on the parish register record of her marriage to Benjamin BANKS. I can't remember if you said you had it or not. If not, I think I would definitely get this certificate and see what you can glean from it - you might just be lucky!!

Have to ferry grandson to football training now and cricket winter nets afterwards, so will endeavour to do a bit more tomorrow or Sunday.

Janet

[Joc_42]

Yes I am getting confused it was Thomas Sib that died then, your quite right many apologises. We have no idea when he died but he was def dead by 1918.

[Joc_42]

We think that Jumbo could poss be John but again thats pure speculation. We have no concrete evidence of that.

We do have their marriage cert and it says Thomas Loveridge deceased on it, is there any other info I need from this.

The barnes theme seems a good one - that is the one that mum has been drawn to when we were looking. It just so confusing!!!!!

Not sure we are ever going to make sense of this :-(

[Lizzy9]

We do have their marriage cert and it says Thomas Loveridge deceased on it, is there any other info I need from this.
Does it say what Thomas' occupation was?
The barnes theme seems a good one - that is the one that mum has been drawn to when we were looking. It just so confusing!!!!!
I I too think the Barnes Thomas is most likely, so that's me, your Mum and Jan all drawn towards the same Thomas.
(

You said in your opening post that your ancestors' had an association with Hale Street, was that info gleaned from census returns, or do you know for certain the Loveridge's lived in Hale Street

[Lizzy9]

This is highly likely the death reg of Elias, it would be interesting to know who the informant was.

Elias Loveridge est birth year 1843, date of death 1st qrt 1915, age at death 72, registered in Greenwich, vol 1d page 1588

[Lizzy9]

A death for Thomas?

Thomas Loveridge 1916, age 52, Greenwich vol 1d page 1199

[Joc_42]

We know that mary ann def lived there and as far as the family stories go all the family were very close by.

Although Mary ann did tell my mum that she came from what she called the little people who lived in tents in fields!!!!

I'll suggest to Mum to maybe order that cert for elias to see. I can't remember I'll have to ask mum as she has the cert.

[janbooth]

This looks like Elias & wife in the 1861 census of Daventry Northants:

RG9/945, folio 10, page 13
Drayton Hamlet

Ellias LOVERIDGE Head Mar 21 Basket Maker Staffordsh Stourbridge
Lorame? S do Wife Mar 24 Hawker do Bilston
Harry SMITH Brother in law Mar 25 Tinker Not known
Susan do do Wife (crossed out replaced by Sister) Mar 21 Hawker Lincoln Elson
Mary do Mother in law W 60 Hawker Not known

No children which suggests they were fairly recently married??

The link with Thomas son of Elias & Barnes Surrey is tempting but surely Elias's Thomas is unlikely to be Mary Ann's father Thomas given that he was only 4 in the 1871 census - although again I suppose it is just possible.

There is a baptism for a daughter Clara on 18 March 1873 at St George Battersea father Elias, mother Laura, 9 Seymour Place, Stewarts Lane, Elias being described as a Clothes Peg Maker.

Back after lunch.

Janet

[Lizzy9]

This looks like Elias & wife in the 1861 census of Daventry Northants:

RG9/945, folio 10, page 13
Drayton Hamlet

Ellias LOVERIDGE Head Mar 21 Basket Maker Staffordsh Stourbridge
Lorame? S do Wife Mar 24 Hawker do Bilston
Harry SMITH Brother in law Mar 25 Tinker Not known
Susan do do Wife (crossed out replaced by Sister) Mar 21 Hawker Lincoln Elson
Mary do Mother in law W 60 Hawker Not known

No children which suggests they were fairly recently married??

The link with Thomas son of Elias & Barnes Surrey is tempting but surely Elias's Thomas is unlikely to be Mary Ann's father Thomas given that he was only 4 in the 1871 census - although again I suppose it is just possible. I agree, Janet, and can we trust he was only 4 in 1871, the family's ages do seem to change throughout census returns. Oh heck! this family could turn you to drink or swear.
Back after lunch. Janet

Hope you find more after lunch, it will be tonight before I have enough time to get my teeth back into this puzzler. Good luck

[janbooth]

Clara LOVERIDGE daughter of Elias & Laura? was buried at St George, Battersea on 21 March 1873, aged 3 weeks, Stewarts Lane, Battersea. There is also a burial at Battersea on 21 April 1875 of a Lasher LOVERIDGE (Elias's wife??), aged 55, 8 Europa Place.

Janet

[Lizzy9]

I found a Lasher L. on a census return last night.

[janbooth]

The death registration that Lizzy has found in 1916 in Greenwich fits in very well with the 1911 census record of the Tom LOVERIDGE born c1865 at Barnes Common and this in turn fits in pretty well with the Thomas LOVERIDGE living at 25 Stanhope Street in the 1881 census with wife Elizabeth & daughter Polly except for the age (born c1859). In the 1881 census Elias, Adolphus and Thomas were all living in Stanhope Street and were shown as either Pedlars or a Basket Maker in the case of Adolphus. There must have been a fairly close relationship between Thomas & Adolphus as Thomas named 2 of his sons Adolphus and a daughter Sophia (after Adolphus's wife??), so ..... perhaps they were brothers. Not that this gets us anywhere because there are no birth or marriage registrations to prove anything and every census record tells a different tale!! I think I need a rest now, as my mind is going round in circles. Will ponder some more.

Janet

[Joc_42]

Thank you both for all your hard work been trying to plot it together and it just wont fit at the moment no matter what we try.

I'm fairly sure that Thomas and Adolphus will be brothers but it is how to prove it?????

Will try and look at it all again later.

Many Thanks again.

[Lizzy9]

1841 census Ploughley, Bicester, Oxfordshire. Hmm! looks interesting, could young Cornelius be Elias? The names of this family are certainly imaginative, one would think they'd be easy to find on subsequent census returns, but will they? ;)
All enumerated as born in county.

Cornelius Loveridge 40, Brazier
D'Leafey wife 40
Cornelius son 11
Thomas son 9
Queen Asiony dau 7
Rose dau 5
Clementine dau 2

HO107; Piece 885; Book: 4 Folio: 13; Page: 19 (Crown copyright, in care of TNA)
Georgiana dau 4 months

[Lizzy9]

1851, Bicester Market End, Oxfordshire. Cornelius hasn't aged at all, he's still 40 and his wife has aged by only two years :confused:

Cornelius Loveridge 40, Brazier, Bainton Oxf.
Delathy wife 42, Oddington Oxf.
Clementina dau 12, Bickley Oxf.
Elizabeth dau 5, Bicester Oxf.
James son 3, Bicester
Rosena dau 1, Bicester
Rosena grandmother 70 Stoke Lyne, Oxfordshire

Class: HO107; Piece: 1729; Folio: 422; Page: 20; (Crown copyright, in care of TNA)

[Joc_42]

No Thomas by 1851 ???

And Leafy is a smith by 1861!!!

[Lizzy9]

Clementina may also be named Smith in 1861. Living next door but one to Leafy.

Thomas Smith 24 Grinder
Clementin* wife 22
Emanuel son 2
Sidney son 7 months

Piece: 900; Folio: 119; Page: 35 (Crown copyright, in care of TNA)

[Lizzy9]

Rosena the grandmother (1851)?? Living close to Leafy, Cornelius etc, at Bicester Market End

Rosa Loveridge, widow, 85, Hawker
Sarah Loveridge, widow, 74, lodger, Hawker.

Piece: 900; Folio: 116; Page: 29 (Crown copyright, in care of TNA)

[richardstree]

Jo, I've got a bit lost with your Loveridges' they are so confusing. Do you know for certain that Mary Ann's parents were Thomas and Elizabeth? If so, can you say how you know?

Thanks

I know I keep cropping up every so often, but I keep reading this thread because I feel that we are connected to the same branch of the Loveridge family.

If Polly (Maryann) is the older sister of my husbands grandfather, Albert Loveridge DOB approx 1900 - I have his marriaged cert which gives fathers name as Thomas Loveridge .
Albert married Ethel Mary Ellingford Baxter on 25.12.1924 at Christ Church, Saint Pauls Deptford (banns were read - dont know if that would give further information).
Thomas Loveridge was at that time a labourer.
Albert lived at 23 Hales Street. Ethel Mary lived at 5 Hales Street.
On the marriage cert neither Albert or Ethel appear to have signed, there arent X's but the writing throughout the cert is the same.
Present at the wedding was an Annie Clara Banks.

Sorry if this is me repeating myself.

[loulou1]

Hello there,

Have spent the aft looking at this again, still can't make it work.

Have checked the marriage cert of William Sibthorpe and Mary Ann it states Thomas Loveridge occupation as HAWKER (which doesn't help).

Family stories quote Mary Ann saying that she had a really big family loads of siblings??

For ref I am in touch with other Loveridge Tree hunters on GRU who have Elias father of Adolphus, he is married to Sophia, would it help if I sent you the birth dates and names of this side of the tree ???

With regards to Hale street - we know that Mary Ann lived there in 1918 as it is on the marriage to William No 13 Hale st.

We are thinking the way forward is to order the death cert for Thomas Loveridge 1916. (Hopefully we will get lucky).

We really do appreciate all the work that you are both putting in to help us in our quest.

[Lizzy9]

Hi Loulou,

It's easy to spend other peoples money, but if this was my family history I would definitely send for Thomas Loveridge's death certificate, of course we have no way of knowing if it's the right Thomas, but the certificate may help to establish whether he is, or is not the father of Mary Ann aka Polly.

I'll have another go with the Loveridges' tonight - and see if I can get any further.

[Joc_42]

Hi Lizzy,

Cert was ordered this evening so fingers crossed we can get some more info. Just have to wait now haha

[Lizzy9]

Hi Lizzy,
Cert was ordered this evening so fingers crossed we can get some more info. Just have to wait now haha

Good luck, I hope it's the right one, let us know what it says when you receive it.

Tonight I've been trying to make sense of the Loveridges'. Loulou says her GR contact has Adolphus L. married to Sophia, as being the son of Elias. If their research is accurate, then at least it helps to group people together. By the way, it would be useful if you can post details of Elias' other children as researched by your contact.

The only conclusion I can reach, and as this thread is now so long and complicated there may be flaws in my theory. Here goes.

Adolphus married to Sophia, is Elias' son, he was born circa 1853, and was sharing a house in Hale St with Benjamin and Mary Ann Banks (nee Loveridge), which suggests, as Jan said, that there was a close relationship between Mary Ann and Adolphus - could they be uncle and niece, if so Mary Ann's father would probably be Thomas' brother, though, as a few Loveridges' appear to have married Loveridges' Adolphus could be brother to Mary Ann's mother, but more likely her father's brother.

Adolphus and Sophia are also on the 1881 census in Stanhope St, Deptford, unfortunately, so far we haven't found them in other census - a pity, as we could do with sighting them in 1891.

Moving on to Thomas and Elizabeth, we have them 1911 with sons Henry and Robert, 1901 they are AWOL, 1891 in Stanhope St we have Adophus and Elizabeth with children Polly 13, Jumbo 6, and Adolphus 10 months, I do think this Adolphus could be 'your' Thomas - everything except his given name fits. Then in 1881 in Stanhope St there's Thomas, wife Elizabeth and dau Polly. The census which throws me is the 1871, where Elias, his wife (whatever her name is!), and his three children, Fanny (who is with her father in 1881), Alverdine 6 months and Thomas aged 4, but could Thomas' age have been entered incorrectly, using his approx age from other census, and if it is the same Thomas, his age should have been around 12, or 14.

So, is Thomas, born Barnes Common, Adolphus' brother and son of Elias - it's the only conclusion I can make. If only we could find more census returns for your family |banghead|

[Lizzy9]

I know I keep cropping up every so often, but I keep reading this thread because I feel that we are connected to the same branch of the Loveridge family.

If Polly (Maryann) is the older sister of my husbands grandfather, Albert Loveridge DOB approx 1900 - I have his marriaged cert which gives fathers name as Thomas Loveridge .
Albert married Ethel Mary Ellingford Baxter on 25.12.1924 at Christ Church, Saint Pauls Deptford (banns were read - dont know if that would give further information).
Thomas Loveridge was at that time a labourer.
Albert lived at 23 Hales Street. Ethel Mary lived at 5 Hales Street.
On the marriage cert neither Albert or Ethel appear to have signed, there arent X's but the writing throughout the cert is the same.
Present at the wedding was an Annie Clara Banks.

Sorry if this is me repeating myself.

Hi Richardstree, sorry if you feel you are being ignored, but I don't know what to say. I cannot link 'your' Albert to the Thomas and Elizabeth we've found on census returns. He's not with Thomas and Elizabeth in 1911, though there is a Robert aged 10? Why do you think Albert is Mary Ann's brother? Albert could be the son of the other Thomas who was living in Deptford at the time Albert was born, see posts 61 and 64 on this thread.

[Lizzy9]

Found Adolphus and Sophia in 1891 |biggrin| I don't think they've been found earlier on the thread, have they? Living at 50, Hale St, Deptford.

Adolphus Loverage [sic] 36 hawker born Wales!!???
Sophis wife 39, Nottinghamshire
Thomas son 19, St Thomas, Shepherds Bush
Henry son 10, Paddock Wood
John son 6, Deptford
Emily dau 2, Deptford

Class: RG12; Piece: 494; Folio 109; Page 17 (Crown copyright, in care of TNA)

[richardstree]

Hi Richardstree, sorry if you feel you are being ignored, but I don't know what to say. I cannot link 'your' Albert to the Thomas and Elizabeth we've found on census returns. He's not with Thomas and Elizabeth in 1911, though there is a Robert aged 10? Why do you think Albert is Mary Ann's brother? Albert could be the son of the other Thomas who was living in Deptford at the time Albert was born, see posts 61 and 64 on this thread.

I have been in contact with Joc with a couple of PMs, also sent a photograph of a family wedding.

When Jocs mum looked at the photo she picked out a familiar face as looking like Jimmy Allen. His dad was James Allen who was married to Eliza Banks, Maryann's/Pollys daughter with her 1st husband Benjamin Banks, also my MIL has said that Albert had a brother Jumbo and a Polly in the family.

I know from Alberts marriage cert that his father was Thomas.

Albert has one surviving daughter, she married but never had children. I do believe that she has something that could be useful but its impossible to get any information from her about her family.

I will keep watching from the sidelines and see how things progress.

Keep up the good work.

[richardstree]

Just reread my last post.

I should have said the wedding was of Albert Loveridges daughter.

A witness at the wedding was a James Allen. This is the James/Jimmy Allen that Jocs mum recognised.

Albert along with his wife, Ethel Mary, are on the photograph

[loulou1]

Hi,
hope this will help.
william Loveridge c 1800 married Dorcas Smith C 1800 parents of Elisha Loveridge 1827 married unknown.
They children Adolphus 1852-1933,Benjamin 1861,baltholomew 1862,Joseph 1863,all loveridge.
Adolphus married sophia Boswell (I did find the Boswell family near by cant find the notes at the mo )
THey children were John 1886 married Mercy unkown .Thomas 1872,Thedric 1880,Nelson 1887,Norah 1894,Emily1890,Henry 1897 who married Louisa.
This information came from another persons family tree . This person and myself feel we do have famil y connections but like the rest of us cant put the pieces together.
thank you all for your help ( I know we keep saying this)

[janbooth]

Hi everyone,

William SIBTHORPE's marriage to Mary Ann BANKS does help as it states that Mary Ann's father was Thomas LOVERIDGE, Hawker. That ties in with the Thomas living at Stanhope Street and does give us another connection to that Thomas - much better than her marriage record to Benjamin BANKS wherein she states that father Thomas was a Carpenter.

Could there be two LOVERIDGEs with the name Elias and perhaps a generation apart. If William LOVERIDGE & Dorcas were the parents of an Elias born c1827, then the Elias we have found married to Lasher, Larome or whatever her name is, seems to be a lot younger than Elias born c1827. I know their ages and dates of birth seem to vary in every census record we find, but not normally by that much.

Trying to put all the info we have in some sort of order to try to clarify the situation:

Concentrating on Adolphus & Sophia for the moment, the first baptism that appears on the London Parish Registers is that of Henry (Thedric?) who was born 7 September, baptised 24 October 1880 at Christ Church Deptford son of Adolphus & Sophia, Griffin St, Coalster. By the time of the 1881 census, they are living in Stanhope St with children Thomas & Hendric in the same house as widowed Elia LOVERIDGE, aged 37, Pedlar, born Staffordshire and his children William & Fanny.

By the 1891 census, Adolphus, Sophia & family are living at 50 Hale Street and they are still there in the 1901 census. Elias I cannot find in the 1891 & 1901 census records using both FMP & Ancestry but he reappears in the 1911 census living at 13 Griffin Street and described as a single, 70 year old Hawker born Newport Monmouthshire. Adolphus LOVERIDGE, wife Sophia and daughters Emily & Norah are living at 44 Reginald Rd, Deptford, he being shown as a 57 year old Street Hawker, born West Bromwich, Sophia being shown as 57, born Sheppards Bush - yet 2 more different birthplaces.

Tracing these two families backwards, Elias is in the 1871 census of Hammersmith, aged 33, Basket Maker, born Dudley with wife Lelora, aged 25, born Lester, Norwich and children Joseph 7 born Lincs, Thomas 4 born Barnes, Fanny 3 born Sherborne and Alverdine, son aged 6 months born Sherborne living in Gipsies Tent and end of Alexandra Road. In the 1861 census of Daventry, Northants, Elias, aged 21, Basket Maker, born Stourbridge Staffs and (I think looking very closely at the census image it could be) Loraine S, aged 24, Hawker, born Bilston Staffs are living at Drayton Hamlet with brother in law Hasey? SMITH, aged 25, Tinker, birthplace unknown, his wife Susan, aged 21, born Lincoln, Elson and mother in law Mary SMITH, a widowed 60 year old Hawker, birthplace unknown. From this it looks as if this Elias is born c1840 and married a Loraine? SMITH, born c1837 Elson who had a brother Hasey? and whose mother was Mary. I can't find either Elias or his wife prior to the 1861 census so far nor can I find Adolphus in either the 1871 or 1861 census records .

Hopefully more to follow using your new information.

Janet

[janbooth]

Let's concentrate on Joseph LOVERIDGE born c1863. In the 1871 census of Hammersmith he is living with father Elias, see above.

In the 1891 census, he is living at 12 Hale Street:

Mr LOVEREDGE Head Mar 22 General Labourer Deptford
Mrs do Wife Mar 22 do
Laura do Daur 9 do
Walter do Son 5 do
Arthur do Son 2 do

At least I think this is Joseph & his wife although the ages are totally incorrect, judging by the children and the address which is the same as that given when son William Adolphus is baptised.

He obviously marries an Esther/Hester as from London Parish Register baptisms:

Born 11 Jan, bap 18 Feb 1883 at Christ Church Deptford Manorah LOVERIDGE ? Joseph & Esther, 28 Stanhope Street, Hawker
Baptised 22 November 1885 at St Mary Kilburn Walter Thomas LOVERIDGE son Joseph & Hester, Travelling Van, Labourer
Born 22 Jan, bap 1 March 1891 at Christ Church, Deptford Oscar LOVERAGE son Joseph & Esther, 52 Hale Street, Hawker
Born 3? May, bap 12 June 1895 at Christ Church Deptford William Adolphus LOVERIDGE son Joseph & Esther, 12 Hale Street, Hawker

Joseph, aged 43, Dock Labourer, born Peterborough & Esther, aged 42, born London are still living at 12 Hale Street in the 1901 census with children Laurie aged 18, Oscar aged 9, Edith aged 7 born Old Bexley Kent, Adolphus aged 5, Ada aged 3 born Old Bexley Elizabeth aged 18 months born Deptford & James John aged 6 months born Deptford.

Joseph is living at 6 Bronze St, Deptford in the 1911 census, described as married, 7 children born of whom 5 are still living, with children Edith, Adolphus, Ada, Elizabeth & James. No sign of Esther but Joseph is shown as aged 52, a Costermonger, born Peterborough, Yorks.

Must stop now - it is time for tea but will have another look tomorrow for the other children of Elias/Elisha. However, I don't seem to be able to find any of them prior to the 1861 census record for Elia.

Janet

[janbooth]

I can't find any trace of either Benjamin or Bartholomew LOVERIDGE in the census records or marriages/births records - so I am afraid that looks like a bit of a dead end. Interesting that Adolphus & Sophia had a son Barthy born 25 Feb baptised 25 March 1883 at Christ Church Deptford whilst they were living at 52 Hale Street obviously named after his brother.

John LOVERIDGE son of Adolphus & Sophia married a Maney HEDGES in the December qtr 1905 at Dartford reg district, and they are living at 49 Hale Street according to the 1911 census, he being shown as a 24 year old Hawker, born Deptford. She is shown as married 6 years, aged 23, born Pitsey, Essex and they have a niece Ceila (Celia?) LOVERIDGE aged 15 born Deptford living with them. Needless to say, I can't find Maney in any census records prior to 1911!!

Wait a minute, I may just have something here - looking for Adolphus's son Barthy's marriage registration, I have found a marriage registration in the June qtr 1884 at Dartford reg district, vol 2a, page 715 of a Barthy LOVERIDGE to either a Frances EXTON or an Elizabeth HUNT - now that's a first, a relatively early registration!! Now let me see if I can find them on the 1891/1901 census. Well, that didn't last long - no trace of Barthy on subsequent census records and no trace of the other male Thomas BERRYMAN to see if he married Frances or Elizabeth. I can't imagine that there are too many Barthy LOVERIDGEs around, so I'm pretty sure he must be connected to your lot somewhere down the line. Looks like Adolphus & Sophia married after the births of some of their children. Searching for any other LOVERIDGE marriages at Dartford, have come up with a marriage registration in the June qtr 1884 at Dartford reg district, vol 2a, page 714 of Adolphus LOVERIDGE and one of the other names on the page is that of Sophia BOSWELL - yet another piece of concrete evidence - well relatively so anyway. Do you think they decided it was time to become respectable?

Time for lunch. Hope this helps a bit more.

Janet

[janbooth]

Yet another thought - could the burial record Lizzy & I found for Lasher LOVERIDGE at Battersea actually be a corruption of Elisha? The burial does not state whether it is male or female just that he/she was living at 8 Europa Place and was aged 55 which gives an approximate date of birth as 1820 - a bit out for Elisha I know but then their birth dates do seem to vary. This death was actually registered in the June qtr 1875 at Wandsworth reg district, vol 1d, page 390. I have tried to find Lasher in the 1871 census to either corroborate/eliminate him/her but so far no luck - wouldn't you just know it, one step forward and another back!

More thoughts - I know the birth places vary enormously, but there is more than one mention of Peterborough & Northamptonshire in the census records. I have the Northamptonshire Marriage Index and there are a couple of marriages which show William LOVERIDGE as father - see what you think:

30 August 1847 at Towcester John LOVERIDGE, bach, full age, Gipsy Pedlar, father William LOVERIDGE, Gipsy Pedlar married Eliza LOVERIDGE, spinster, full age, Gipsy Pedlar, father Thomas LOVERIDGE, Gipsy Pedlar

15 July 1839 at Towcester Moses LOVERIDGE, bach, 23, Pedlar, fathe William LOVERIDGE, Pedlar married Mary SKERRY, spinster, 21, Pedlar, father Thomas SKERRY, Pedlar

7 October 1838 at Towcester Plato LOVERIDGE, bach, 23, Pedlar, father William LOVERIDGE, Pedlar married Hannah SKERRY, spinster, 20, father Thomas SKERRY, Pedlar

18 November 1844 at Towcester Thomas LOVERIDGE, bach, full age, Gipsy Pedlar, father William LOVERIDGE, Gipsy Pedlar married Zilla LOVERIDGE, full age, Gipsy Pedlar, father James LOVERIDGE, Gipsy Pedlar.

All the participants were of the parish of Towcester. Of course, they could all be of a totally different clan of LOVERIDGEs but perhaps food for thought. Moses & Plato LOVERIDGE plus their families are still in Towcester in the 1851 census, Moses being born c1815 in Stoke Bruerne Northants and Plato c1819 in Shuthanger Northants and they are both described as Basket Makers. Plato has a daughter Lenea and a son named Benjamin - coincidence again maybe. There also appear to be fathers Job LOVERIDGE, a Brazier and Solomon LOVERIDGE, a Gipsy Pedlar quoted on other marriage records at Towcester around this time - all very biblical names as is your Elisha.

Janet

[janbooth]

Trying to follow the subsequent whereabouts of some of these Northamptonshire LOVERIDGEs (there was also a Sophia LOVERIDGE father Riley who married at Stoke Bruerne), Riley seemed to next go to Staffordshire (found some baptismal records for him as a father) and on looking for any LOVERIDGE baptisms in Staffordshire came upon these 2 extracted baptisms at Kinver, Staffs:

12 May 1843 Priscilla LOVERIDGE father Elisha mother Diana
10 August 1850 Louisa LOVERIDGE father Elisha mother Diana

However, according to the extracted record of his marriage on 3 May 1842 at Kinver to Diana LOVERIDGE, his father was James so that would appear to rule him out - darn it, I thought I had found something there.

Think I had better stop before I totally confuse both myself and you all.

Janet

[loulou1]

O boy you have worked hard.
I am sure that the name zilla (Zillah), in our research as a turned up as a middle name, in the later generation. I will get back to you on that one.
Looking at the way you research and the ordering of your findings, I’m learning a lot.
I have loads of paper with different names, dates, and families, all over the place no order what so ever.
A Peterborough & Northamptonshire connection sounds like it could a good one.
Maryann said she traveled all the time.
It seems that the Loveridge all moved to Deptford around the same time.
I also found a Boswell family in one of the surrounding streets to Hale Street.

Lou

[Lizzy9]

Hi Lou,

From what I can understand - Romanies often lived in houses during the winter months, sometimes sharing with friends or family, then come spring they would go off travelling selling their wares, or their skills, and some would hop pick, or be employed in other agricultural work. This is the main reason their children were born up and down the country, and probably why each was unsure where they were born.

[Lizzy9]

Hi Jo,

1851 Census

Here's details of Plato and his brother Moses who was living next door. Towcester, Northant's

Plato Loveridge 32 Basket Maker Northants
Hannah wife 30 Basket Maker Northants
Lenea dau 10 Basket Maker Bucks
William 8, George 6, Benjamin 4, John 1, all born Towcester.

Moses Loveridge 36 Basket Maker Northants
Mary wife Basket Maker Bucks
Eliza dau 10 Basket Maker Bucks
Susan 8, Mary Ann 4, Emma 3, Esther 1, all born Towcester
Class: HO107; Piece: 1736; Folio: Page: 2 (Crown copyright, in care of TNA)

[Lizzy9]

1861 Olney, Buckinghamshire

Plato Loveridge 45 (yet again an age difference!) Basket Maker, (Can't make out his place of birth, but it's not NORTHANTS? looks like ? Hunts) they really do tell a different tale on each census.
Hannah wife 40, Shutlanger, Northants (again a different POB)
George 15, Benjamin 13, John 10, Thos 7 (so born 1854, could he be Mary Ann's father?) Mary 5, Joseph 6 months, all born Towcester.

Class: RG9; Piece874/Folio34/Page21 (Crown copyright, in care of TNA)

[Lizzy9]

How discourteous of me, Jan :o, not to have explained why I've introduced Plato Loveridge to the thread. Earlier this evening; I found a family tree on the web relating back to William Loveridge and Dorcas Smith, as I was unsure whether the website would contravene B-G's rules, I pm'd the url to Jo and her mum. It was a very informative tree and had Plato as one of William and Dorcas' sons. Plato has a son Thomas born 1854, which fits with the death of the Thomas' death cert Jo has sent for.

[Lizzy9]

Hi Jo and Lou,

This family group is probably unrelated to you, but, I just had to post it. How I wish I had Romany blood - the Romanies had such a great sense of humour |laugh1|, and were very imaginative with choice of names.

William L
Maria L
Goliath (I so hope, for his sake, he was of a strong build ;) :D) , but what a fabulous name!

You folks are so lucky to have such humour, tradition and a strong culture in your family history. I know Romanies are difficult to trace, due to their travels they didn't seem to get around to registering births/marriages/deaths, but it would seem they had their children baptised - the question is where?. I guess the babies were born one place, and maybe baptised another. One thing's for sure, you can't ever say your family history is boring, frustrating yes, boring no!

You'll crack it one day, and I'll continue trying to help - I'm hooked on this family now ;)

[janbooth]

Hi Lizzy,

I don't mind at all and like you I am absolutely hooked on this family - I almost feel they are adopted ancestors!! What a great find by you and it certainly corroborates my feeling that the marriages I found on the Northants Marriage Index were too much of a coincidence to ignore. Like you, I love the names - much more imaginative than my John son of John son of John or Thomas son of god knows how many other Thomas's all seemingly married to a Mary!!

Jo & Loulou - I think if I were you and you can afford it (I am very good at spending other people's money as well as my own!), I would send off for the marriage certificates of Barthy LOVERIDGE and Adolphus LOVERIDGE that I found - unless of course you already have them - as they may just give some extra info and will definitely confirm that they are yours - always a good idea.

Another thing I find very helpful, especially when families are confusing like yours, is to draw out a family tree - in your case starting with William & Dorcas - and entering everything you find (although it may stretch to several pages). This helps to concentrate the mind wonderfully and entries can either be added or deleted quite easily when you find corroborative info. I still do this nowadays even though my computer can do it for me as it tends to FIX things in my mind and sort out my jumbled thoughts.

As Lizzy says, I will keep looking out for your family and see if I can come up with anything further.

Janet

[loulou1]

You both have made me smile with your comments about our family .I only wished that I had asked more questions when I was younger. I lost contact with that side of my family when my Dad died, and I was in my early teens.
It looks like Jo and I have adopted you, Lizzy and Janet.
Your new finds are very interesting!
We will order the certificates you recommended and we will be lead by your advice.
The drawing up of a family tree is one we will do.
Any Help ?
I was told by a family member that Jumbo had 2 children Rose and Jimmy.

Lou

[janbooth]

Any idea when Rose & Jimmy may have been born. Surprisingly on the 1911 census records there are quite a few Rose (and variants) LOVERIDGEs - none which stands out and hits me at the moment. Will have another look tomorrow.

I have come up with something else, though. Looking through the London Marriage records for earlier LOVERIDGE marriages, I came up with this marriage at St Clements Notting Hill (wasn't that one of the various birthplaces for Adolphus):

23 February 1874 William COOPER, 28, bachelor, Chair Carver (I think), 2 Thomas Street, father Henry COOPER, Basket Maker married Esther LOVERIDGE, 29, spinster, 2 Thomas Street, father Lashey LOVERIDGE, Basket Maker. Could this be the Lasher LOVERIDGE whose burial Lizzy and I found in 1875 at 8 Europa Place in which case he is definitely male and could perhaps be Elisha LOVERIDGE.

I also found another connection with Europa Place on the Marriage records with the following marriage at St Mary Battersea:

25 December 1902 Laura LOVERIDGE, 20, spinster, 3 Europa Place, father Joseph LOVERIDGE, Coal Porter who married a James William ELDRIDGE plus another connection with Copperas Square:

3 August 1913 at Christ Church Deptford Celia LOVERIDGE, 19, spinster, 3 Copperas Square, father Thomas LOVERIDGE, Flower Seller deceased married a Charles CHURCHILL. Celia is living with uncle John LOVERIDGE in the 1911 census as I have already found but surprise surprise, I can't find her in the 1901 census.

Hopefully more to come tomorrow - hope you are not being overloaded with all this information!!

Janet

[loulou1]

Hi,
Next week we are meeting up with the person that told me of Rose and Jimmy, so hope to obtain more information.

You are correct with Adolphus and Notting Hill.

Eldridge is a name I remember from my childhood, I will ask my contact if she can name, names.
I think an Eldridge married into the Loveridge/Banks family.

Didn’t Lizzy find the Sibthorpe (Tibthorpe) in Copperas Lane?

This is so exciting I feel you both have had a brake thought.

Lou

[Joc_42]

3 August 1913 at Christ Church Deptford Celia LOVERIDGE, 19, spinster, 3 Copperas Square, father Thomas LOVERIDGE, Flower Seller deceased married a Charles CHURCHILL. Celia is living with uncle John LOVERIDGE in the 1911 census as I have already found but surprise surprise, I can't find her in the 1901 census.

I just found this one too.

[Joc_42]

Hi

Been trawling through the birth records to see if I could find a more suitable birth for Mary Ann (Polly) Loveridge what do you think of these???

Mary Ann 1877 Westbury on Severn Oct Qtr Gloucestershire 6a

Mary Ann 1876 Mitford Jul Qtr Norfolk 4b

Mary Ann 1880 Oct Qtr Northamptonshire 3b 137

Or on a different spin of her name (because you never know with this family)

Anna Mary 1878 Dec Otr Taunton Devon

Martha (could be shortened to Mary maybe???) Ann 1875 Apr Qtr (which fits really well with the dob on her death cert.)

Peterborough Northamptonshire 3b 222 (So the northants link here too)

What do you think or am I clutching at straws ???

[Lizzy9]

25 December 1902 Laura LOVERIDGE, 20, spinster, 3 Europa Place, father Joseph LOVERIDGE, Coal Porter who married a James William ELDRIDGE plus another connection with Copperas Square:


1901 Census, 12,Hale Street, Deptford

Joseph Loveridge 43 Dock Labourer, Peterborough (Peterborough seems to keep cropping up)
Esther wife 42 London
Laurie (Laura from the above marriage, Janet posted?) 18 Laundry Worker, Deptford
Oscar 9, Deptford
Edith 7, Old Bexley, Kent
Adolphus 5, Deptford
Ada 3, Old Bexley
Elizabeth 18 months, Deptford
James John 6 months, Deptford
Class: RG13; Piece: 527 Folio: 66 Page: 8 (Crown copyright, in care of TNA)

[Lizzy9]

In 1911 the above Oscar was in Bhamo (overseas military), age 22, born Deptford.
RG14PN34979 RD641 SD4 ED2 SN9999 (Crown copyright, in care of TNA)

Two births with mother's maiden name Brock
Alophus J Loveridge, 4th qrt 1920
Jmaes {sic} Loveridge, 3rd qrt, 1921'

A marriage : 2nd qrt 1916, Lewisham, Sarah Brock to William A Loveridge

Marriage Banns 1919, St James Bermondsey, Henry Loveridge, bachelor, 50 Hales Street and Jennie Connor, spinster, St James, Bermondsey

[Lizzy9]

Hi

Been trawling through the birth records to see if I could find a more suitable birth for Mary Ann (Polly) Loveridge what do you think of these???

Mary Ann 1877 Westbury on Severn Oct Qtr Gloucestershire 6a (parents William and Elizabeth)

Mary Ann 1876 Mitford Jul Qtr Norfolk 4b (Can't find)

Mary Ann 1880 Oct Qtr Northamptonshire 3b 137 (parents APPEAR to be John and Emma)

Or on a different spin of her name (because you never know with this family)

Anna Mary 1878 Dec Otr Taunton Devon (can;t find on census)

Martha (could be shortened to Mary maybe???) Ann 1875 Apr Qtr (which fits really well with the dob on her death cert.) (where registered?, there's a Martha which fits born Somerset)

Peterborough Northamptonshire 3b 222 (So the northants link here too) (Cannot find this one)

What do you think or am I clutching at straws ???

Hi Jo, maybe you are clutching at straws, but what else do you have to clutch at? ;) I'd say of those examples the Peterborough one is most likely, but that;s merely a hunch in view of the Peterborough connection. Sorry, just noticed the peterborough one is Martha hmm! I don't know.

[janbooth]

Just a quickie. The GRO actual image definitely states Martha Ann but it is a typewritten image so perhaps fallible. I can't find a death registration for a Martha Ann fairly soon afterwards but neither can I find her in the 1881 census records at first sight. Can't find a marriage registration for her either at the moment - so who knows. Hope your meeting gives you loads more information next week. Am away for some of next week as hope to solve some of my brick walls at the appropriate record office so shall have a lot to catch up with re your family.

Janet

[loulou1]

Received Thomas Loveridge death certificate details are:
10th December 1910,
Age 52,
Informant Elizabeth
Widow of the deceased present at the death at 50 Hale St,
Occupation general labourer

[Lizzy9]

Hi Lou, it doesn't really tell you much does it? That's a pity, however you have confirmation that his wife was named Elizabeth and she was still alive in 1916 (BTW, is 1910 in your post a typo which should read 1916?)

I've found what could be Elizabeth's death. Elizabeth Loveridge 1920, age 59, Greenwich, vol 1d page 716.

[Joc_42]

Hi Lizzy

Yes it was a typo as I saw the cert earlier, we too found elizabeths death - we are thinking maybe to get this cert to see the informant????

We still can't locate a marriage for the two of them - tried the parish reg for staffordshire etc but we couldnt get into them???

[Lizzy9]

Hi Jo and Lou,

At the beginning of your thread you mentioned a connection to the Bowman family, do the Bowman's connect to the Loveridge's or are the Bowman's another side of your family?

Does the surname Bartlett mean anything?

[janbooth]

Hi Jo & Lou,

It tells you that he is quite likely to be your Thomas father of Mary Ann as she was born c1879/80 and the age is very close to that of your Thomas in the census records. Sounds as though the death registration Lizzy has found for Elizabeth LOVERIDGE could well be Mary Ann's mother - her age at death would fit reasonably well with the 1881 census record and it would be marvellous if the informant was Mary Ann wouldn't it - do you think you could be so lucky?

Janet

[Joc_42]

Hi

The bowman connection is through marriage mary ann daughter harriet married a bowman. No Bartlett doesn't ring any bells.

yes Janet we are hoping so will send off for the cert and keep you both posted.

[Joc_42]

Received Thomas Loveridge death certificate details are:
10th December 1910,
Age 52,
Informant Elizabeth
Widow of the deceased present at the death at 50 Hale St,
Occupation general labourer

For Richardstree

Hi this is the death of Thomas Loveridge c1860 - thinking abt things more it is prob more poss that this is Mary-ann father but your Albert's GGF - I think your Alberts father Thomas was This Thomas son, (I hope that makes sense ) ??0

So why am I telling you this, just wanted to past on that he died of phthisis (now known as Tuberculois) and exhausation. (he would have wasted away, poor man).

Thought this info might interest you.

[Lizzy9]

Hi

No Bartlett doesn't ring any bells. Ok, Jo forget the Bartlett's then - I found a marriage between Thomas Loveridge and Elizabeth Bartlett, but it's probably not the right couple, and even if it is right we have no way of proving it until we establish Mary Ann/Polly's mother's maiden name.

yes Janet we are hoping so will send off for the cert and keep you both posted. If Mary Ann/ Polly was the informant you will know Elizabeth was her mother, but it won't take you to Mary Ann's ancestry.

Jo/Lou this must be so frustrating for you, but every little bit of info should help. Your biggest problem is not knowing where Mary Ann was baptised as it seems her birth wasn't registered, if only we could find her baptism, however as the family were travellers her baptism could have been anywhere!! I so feel for you and will continue looking for clues.

[Joc_42]

Hi Lizzy

Thank you for your kind words, it is frustrating thats for sure.

Where did you find this marriage between Thomas and Elizabeth Bartlett?? I looked and found a couple in towcester.

[Lizzy9]

Hi Jo,

It was in Kings Norton, which may not be the right area, but in view of their travels!!! I suppose your Thomas and Elizabeth could have married in any UK town. The year seemed about right 1879.

[Lizzy9]

I don't know how we missed this :confused: 1901 Census 52, Hale St, Deptford. All said to be born Deptford except Elizabeth born Croydon.

Thomas Loveridge 40, Hawker
Elizabeth wife, 48, Hawker
Thomas son, 18, Hawker (could this be Jumbo?)
Henry son, 4
Edith dau, 8

Class: RG13; Piece: 527; Folio: 70; Page: 15. (Crown copyright, in care of TNA)

[Lizzy9]

1901 census 15, Regent St, St Paul, Deptford.

Willie J Loveridge, 36, Coal Porter, Erith, Kent.
Mary, wife, 31, Deptford
Willie J, son, 13, Nunhead Kent
Robert A, son, 4, Peckham
Isiah son, 2, Deptford

Class: RG13; Piece: 527; Folio: 93; Page: 62. (Crown copyright, in care of TNA)

[Lizzy9]

1891 Census Lewisham.

Justinia Boswell/head/68/Barking Side, Essex
Annie Loveridge/dau/26/Shepherds Bush
Thomas Loveridge/son in law/26/Shepherds Bush
Bertie Loveridge.grandson/4/Deptford
Mandie Loveridge/granddau/1/Deptford

Class: RG12; Piece: 522; Folio 96; Page 25 (Crown copyright, in care of TNA)

[loulou1]

Lizzy I have just found this to,
Name: Bertie Loveridge
Age: 4
Estimated birth year: abt 1887
Relation: Grandson
Father's Name: Thomas
Mother's Name: Annie
Gender: Male
Where born: Deptford, Kent, England

Civil parish: Lewisham
Ecclesiastical parish: Lewisham St Marys
County/Island: London
Country: England

[richardstree]

Sorry for some reason this posted twice I have left the second post

[richardstree]

50 Hale Street 1911 census

Tom Loveridge Head Born 1865 Hawker Born Barns Comenon
Elizabeth Loveridge Married 35 years Born 1861 Hawker Born Croyden
Henry Loveridge Son Single M 14 1897 School Deptford
Robert Loveridge Son Single M 10 1901 School Deptford

[richardstree]

Just gone through the thread and saw that you have the above, but I dont think i saw these.

Adolphus Head Married 36 years age 57 Born 1854 West Bromwick Street Hawker
Sophia Wife 57 1854 Shephard Bush Middlesex
Emily Daughter Single 21 1890 Deptford Kent
Norah Daughter Single 16 1895 Deptford Kent

Adolphus and Sophia had had 9 children, four were still living
They lived at 44 Reginald Road, Deptford.

there is also another Loveridge family at the same address

Henry Loveridge Head Married 12 years Born 1880 Street Hawker Paddock Wood Kent
Louisa Loveridge Wife Born 1879 Deptford Kent
John Loveridge Son aged 6 1905 Deptford Kent
Thomas Loveridge Son aged 2 1909 Deptford Kent

both their children were living.

At 49 Hale Street there is

John Loveridge Head Married 6 years Born 1887 Hawker Deptford
Maney Loveridge Wife Born 1888 Pitsey Essex
Ceila Loveridge Niece Single aged 15 1896 Deptford

John and Celia had one child but it had not survived.

[richardstree]

Both the posts above are from the 1911 Census.

Forgot to add that to the posts.|oopsredfa

[richardstree]

I have just looked at a post I wrote on Roots Chat there are a couple of interesting posts.

From Vons: My great grandfather was Adolphus Loveridge. He was born about 1860. He married Sophia Boswell. Thomas Loveridge was my great uncle. They lived in Hale Street, Deptford. They were Romanies who came off the road in the 1890's.

From pookerthegib:I have found in my tree a second cousin to my mother, Sarah Redworth, A Bertie Loverage age 4 of Deptford, in the 1891 Census. His parents were Thomas Loverage 26 of Shepherdsbush and Annie Boswell 26 of Shepherdsbush. Do you know if there is any connection to your line of Loverage's?

There are also the Loveridge on the 1901 census at 12 Hales Street (think it has been mentioned on here before) RG13/527 page 8
Which could be these Loverages from 1911 census
Joseph Loverage Head Married 1859 Costermonger Peterborough Yorks
Edith Loverage Daughter Single 1893 Street Hawker London Deptford
Adolphus Loverage Son Single 1895 Hawker Fish London Deptford
Ada Loverage Daughter 1898 London Deptford
Elizabeth Loverage Daughter 1899 London Deptford
James Loverage Son 10 1901 London Deptford

Address 6 Bronze Street Deptford
They had had 7 children and two had died

The second one has a different spelling of the name Loveridge, but the other names and places of birth are correct.

[Hanna]

Hi
Don't know if these are any of your names Arthur William Loveridge. son of Henry Mannasseh Loveridge. b 1854 in Newport Pagnel also David who married a Louisa Yates. I understand these were Gypsy family and have some connection to Northants.
I am not directly decended to them but I have distant ancestor in Oz who has a close family connection .
If you find you have any of these names let me know and I can contact my friend,I am sure she has more info than I do.

Regards

Hanna

[Joc_42]

Many Thanks Hanna.

Not sure if we have any links to Newport but I will certainly let you know if I find any.

Thx again

[Joc_42]

Hi All,

Have rec'd the certs we have been waiting for, sadly we were not that lucky with Elizabeth Loveridge deth cert the informant was actually a Ethel Lyons Daughter 43 hale st. So no confirmation there :-(

On a more positive note William Sibthorpe birth cert indeed confirmed that his mother was Emma Goody (Yipeeeeeeeee) so at least that is a def link.

Jo

[Joc_42]

Ok so I'm here to pick your brains.

I'm trying to locate the divorce of George william sibthorpe to Hilda S Arnold (he married under William George Sibthorpe can find the marriage easy enough)

I know Hilda married again in 1947 and George was a POW from 1940=1945 so I'm guessing that divorce must have been in 1946 but I can find no record??????

Any tips on where to look next?

Many thanks

[Lizzy9]

1911.

Tom Loveridge 46 Hawker born Barns Comenon? - Barnes Common probably!
Elizabeth wife 50 born Croydon married 35 years? (something doesn't add up!) either they are older than they said, or they haven't been married for 35 yrs.
Henry son 14 Deptford
Robert son 10 Deptford
RG14PN2625 RG78PN89 RD28 SD2 ED2 SN49 (Crown copyright in care of TNA)
50, Hale Street, St Paul Deptford, Greenwich, London.

Living as a seperate family unit, but at the same address as Tom and Elizabeth in 1911 is:

James Lyons, 18, married 1 year, hawker, Greenwich
Ethel Lyons, 18, hawker, Bexley Heath
Lizzie Lyons, 3 months, Deptford

RG14PN2625 RG78PN89 RD28 SD2 ED2 SN50 (Crown copyright, in care of TNA)


Hi All,

Have rec'd the certs we have been waiting for, sadly we were not that lucky with Elizabeth Loveridge deth cert the informant was actually a Ethel Lyons Daughter 43 hale st. So no confirmation there :-(

On a more positive note William Sibthorpe birth cert indeed confirmed that his mother was Emma Goody (Yipeeeeeeeee) so at least that is a def link.

Jo

It's a pity Mary Ann wasn't the informant of death, but the dau Ethel was living next door in 1911 with her husband James Lyons.

Good news regarding Emma Goodey.

[Joc_42]

Arh excellent spot Lizzy, they do like to stay close to eachother these loveridges!!! :-)

[Lizzy9]

Marriage Oct 23 1910 at Christ Church St Pauls Deptford.

James Lyons, 18, bachelor, occ PDC Office?, 50, Hale Street, father Edwin Lyons (decorator)
Ethel Loveridge, 17, spinster, 50 Hale Street, father Thomas (coster)

Witnesses George Hunt and Lucy Thomas. Both James and Ethel signed.

[Joc_42]

Well done - I missed that one completely.

Any thoughts on the divorce??

[Lizzy9]

Sorry, Jo, I can't help with divorce records I've no experience with them.

[Joc_42]

I'm complet;ey stumped I'm starting to have my doubts if I'll ever find one!!

[janbooth]

Hello again Jo, Lou & Richard

Jo,

If you go to the National Archives site (www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/records/looking-for-person/divorce.htm), it gives you advice on how to search for divorce records. I have never done it myself, so don't know how effective it is but is should give you some ideas.

Well spotted Lizzie for the Ethel LOVERIDGE/James LYONS marriage - it is also on the GRO Index Dec qtr 1910 at Greenwich reg district, vol 1d, page 1669 but whoever transcribed it has made a bit of a muck up in that Ethel & James do not appear on the same page although the original image of the page & volume no for Ethel is very easy to read!!

Found another LOVERIDGE baptism for you - this time to Barthea & Elizabeth at St Paul Deptford:

Born 15 January, bap 1 February 1885 Thomas LOVERIDGE son of Barthea & Elizabeth, 9 Hale Street, Labourer. From memory, it looks as if the marriage I found earlier for a Barthy LOVERIDGE could be to Elizabeth HUNT.

Janet

[janbooth]

Which leads me to think that this Barthy/Barthea could well be the Bartholomew born c1862 to Elisha/Elias so very relevant to your family and the marriage certificate would confirm this.

More after lunch

Janet

[janbooth]

I can't remember if I found this baptism before or whether Lizzy did, but in case not:

Born 16 August, baptised 30 August 1895 at St Paul, Deptford Sarah LOVERIDGE daughter Thomas & Elizabeth, 5 Stanhope St, Labourer

There is also a baptism on 5 May 1895 at St Paul of a Caelente LOVERIDGE daughter Thomas & Eliza, 50 Hale Street, Hawker

I am assuming from this, perhaps incorrectly, that Sarah could be Mary Ann's sister and that Caelente is Adolphus's grand daughter??

Looking back to refresh my memory somewhat, I am now trying to trace the Esther LOVERIDGE, father Lashey, who married William COOPER in 1874 to see if I can find her on census records - no luck whatsoever at the moment, but these look like baptisms of William & Esther's children:

14 July 1872 at St Mary the Virgin, Bedfont, Middlesex Magenta COOPER daughter of William & Esther, Halton, Chair Mender (so before they were married)
16 August 1874 at St James, Norlands, Kensington Perrin COOPER child of William & Esther, 9 Thomas St, Basket Makers
Born 1 October, baptised 13 November 1875 at St Mary, Battersea Leonard COOPER son William & Esther, 18 Europa Place, Hawkers
Born 19 June, baptised 3 July 1881 at St Andrew, West Kensington Albert Edward COOPER son William & Esther, 27 Fane Street, Traveller

Don't know whether Perrin is male or female as there was no idication on the parish register. Think I have found them on the 1881 census but it is hard to be sure. I suppose the Gerty could be Magenta and the Leonard is okay and they are living at Fane Street:

RG11/66, folio 86, page 30
8 Fane Street, Fulham

William COOPER Head Mar 40 Cane Worker Barnstaple Devon
Esther do Wife Mar 40 do do
William do Son 14 Fulham Middlesex
Gerty do Daur 8 do do
Leonard do Son 6 do do
Walter do Son 4 do do

This could be Walter's baptism on 3 February 1878 at St John, Walham Green parents William & Esther, Parsons Green Lane, All Saints, Labourer. As usual no sign of them on earlier records.

Janet

[Joc_42]

Thx Jan,

Sorry feeling a little under the weather so havent been able to process this info - will get back to you when I've made sense of it all.

Many thanks

Jo

[MarkJ]

As there is another thread on this same family, it may be useful for members to review replies on the other thread too.

That thread can be found here. (http://www.british-genealogy.com/forums/showthread.php?49035-SIBTHORPE-LOVERIDGE&p=378473&posted=1#post378473)

The two threads, although about the same families, seem to have diverged enough to warrant having both threads open for now at least. It is worth checking the other thread to save duplication of effort ;)

Mark

[janbooth]

Hope you are soon feeling better, Jo. I decided to be a little more organised in my searches for your LOVERIDGE families and search through the census records for them. So far I have found Adolphus in the 1881/91/1901/1911 census records, Thomas (Mary Ann aka Polly's father) in the 1881/91/1901/1911 census, Elias in the 1871/1881/1911 census. I have found an Elias in the 1891 census of Eaton Socon but none of the children's names match up to the 1881 census so I think this is a different Elias. What I have also come up with in my search is a William LOVERIDGE from the 1851 census onwards born c1818 onwards (age always varies) in Kinfare Staffs in the 1851 in a Travellers Tent married to a Mazippora(h). He is shown as born Towcester and a Travelling Basket Maker with children Dazikiel Tennant (son) aged 5 and daughter Carolina aged 2. This family are still in Kinver in Tents in the 1861 census, children now being called Tantel aged 15, Coventia aged 12 and another daughter named Matilda who is aged 6. By the 1871 census, William, Zipporah and Matilda are in Gipsy Tents in Walsall - then I seem to lose that family but pick up another William LOVERIDGE in Minsterworth, Gloucestershire who is a widower, aged 63, Travelling Tinman with married daughter Susan SMITH, aged 40, born Herefordshire and son in law Nathaniel SMITH who are sleeping in a Caravan. However, this William LOVERIDGE is shown as born Dinners Flat, Westbury on Severn. I'm not sure this will make you feel any better, Jo, probably just increase your headache!! I've a feeling the William & Zipporah may be connected to you, given the Northants connection and the fact that they seem to be located in Staffordshire, both places which have appeared in previous census records so will try to find out more about this couple.

Janet

[janbooth]

Breakthrough time Jo, Lou, Lizzy & Richard - I have finally found the connection with Northamptonshire LOVERIDGEs. Hold on to your hats and prepare to shout whoopee - unless of course you have already found this:

From FreeReg:

6 March 1817 at Stoke Bruerne Northamptonshire Moses LOVERIDGE baptised son of William & Dorcas, Basket Maker, Travelling through. This is the only baptism on FreeReg for the children of William & Dorcas but because of the marriage records I found on the Northamptonshire Marriage Index post 1837 we know that William & presumably Dorcas also had a John (married Eliza LOVERIDGE 30 Aug 1847 at Towcester, both full age), Plato born c1815 (married Hannah SKERRY 7 October 1838 at Towcester), Thomas married Zilla LOVERIDGE 18 November 1844 at Towcester, both full age) and Sinfine married George SMART 3 April 1843 at Greens Norton, both full age. Moses married Mary SKERRY 15 July 1839 at Towcester. You know that William & Dorcas also had a son Elisha born c1827 whom we think is the father of Adolphus, Thomas, etc and they may have had other children born elsewhere including the William I emntioned in my last post.

On FreeReg, there is also a baptism at Twywell, Northants on 12 June 1824 of a Clara LOVERIDGE, father James mother Hester, from anywhere(!!), Gypsies. Given that Clara and James are names that crop up later, could this perhaps be a brother of William snr?? There is also this baptism which could perhaps be this James LOVERIDGE on 11 December 1781 at Nether Heyford, Northants parents William & Rosamond, Travellers - perhaps your William's parents??

Will now check on marriages and burials.

Janet

[janbooth]

Lots of marriages on FreeReg for your extended family of LOVERIDGES - it is probably better if you look through them yourselves. One burial which could be relevant on 17 October 1786 at Rushden Northants of a William LOVERIDGE, aged 82. Would need to check census records on Ancestry to see if he is likely to be yours, but it is on the blink at the moment and I can't get in.

Hope this gives you something to get your teeth into over the weekend though - I feel quite excited at the moment.

Janet

[Joc_42]

Hi

just wanted to update you both, both mum and I have been quite poorly and haven't managed to do any more on the family in a few weeks.

We hope to get back in the swing of it again soon.

Many Thanks ]

Jo

[Lizzy9]

Hi Jo,

I wondered where you were - good to see you back. I hope you and your Mum are feeling much better, take things easy.

Best wishes to you both.

Lizzy

[janbooth]

Lizzy's sentiments echoed! Take care of yourselves and when you are feeling up to it, start posting again - I am quite addicted to your families.

Janet

[richardstree]

Just an update, I am now in UK and have just got back home after a visit with Rita (daughter of Albert Loveridge).

While i was with her, i was using a dongle to access the internet, it was extremely slow, so she gave me quite a lot of information about Albert and his family without having seen the tree i have been putting together.

I will post what i have.

Apparently Albert was in the first world war, in the Royal Kents, he lied about his age so join up. He went to India at some stage.

There were 16 children in Alberts family, 4 children died. I am not sure if this meant there was a total of 20.

When Alberts mother died the family stopped travelling. We dont know when his mother died or her name.

Jumbo Loveridge married, dont have the name of the wife, but he did have children; Rose and Jimmy.

Albert had a brother Henry, he went on to have a son Albert.

A family member died leaving two children. Julie/t and Georgiana. Polly (Rita had no idea of any other name that she used) adopted/took on one of the girls, Georgiana. Julie/t went on to marry a farmer n Kent later in life.

Polly also had a daughter, Lilia. Lilia married an Allen and went on to have a son Jimmy Allen.

Apparently Albert lied about his age all his life. He didnt have a birth cert and it was for the purposes of rationing that he was given 1900 as a birth date.

I have been looking for any military records on Albert but havent been able to find anything yet.

[richardstree]

To get a ration book in WWII you needed at produce your birth cert. Albert didnt have any papers at all. He went ot St Pauls Deptford to be christened, as he didnt know his date of birth they guessed 1.1.1900

Alberts brother, Thomas born 1885 died 10 March 1954
Alberts brother, Henry, born 1891, died 28 jan 1948

Albert served first in India and then 1914-18 war.

Albert had a nephew Thomas Walter Loveridge, born 192, died 1939.

[janbooth]

Hello again Richard,

The new information you have found fits in pretty well with the 1911 census record for Tom LOVERIDGE and his wife Elizabeth who are living at 50 Hale Street, as they are shown to have been married 35 years, having had 16 children born alive, 5 of whom are surviving, amongst them being a Henry born c1897 and a Thomas born c1883. However, I can't find an Albert with this family, but perhaps he was mistranscribed as the Robert on the 1911 census. Albert does appear to have remained in the Greenwich area as both his wedding registration and the birth of his daughter are registered in Greenwich. I have found birth registrations in Deptford for both a Rose & a James LOVERIDGE with the same parents but cannot post details on the Forum as they may both still be living.

More to come after lunch I hope.

Janet

[janbooth]

Further to the above:

There is a marriage registration in the March qtr 1922 at Greenwich reg district of a Henry LOVERIDGE to a Beatrice L M KEEBLE and this couple did have a son Albert but he could still be living so I can't post details. There is also a birth registration to this same couple of a Thomas W LOVERIDGE in the March qtr 1922 at Greenwich reg district plus his death registration in Lewisham reg district in 1939, aged 17.

Janet

[Joc_42]

Hi Jan,

Richard is not a Richard lol The lady's name is Viv lol Just thought I'd let you know. (I hope you don't mind Viv being as we related and all lol)


Tom LOVERIDGE and his wife Elizabeth who are living at 50 Hale Street, as they are shown to have been married 35 years, having had 16 children born alive, 5 of whom are surviving, amongst them being a Henry born c1897 and a Thomas born c1883. However, I can't find an Albert with this family, but perhaps he was mistranscribed as the Robert on the 1911 census. (THIS SOUNDS VERY FEASIBLE DOESN'T IT?) Albert does appear to have remained in the Greenwich area as both his wedding registrati daughter are registered in Greenwich. I have found birth registrations in Deptford for both a Rose & a James LOVERIDGE with the same parents but cannot post details on the Forum as they may both still be living.

Interesting that you found births for Rose and a James as these would be some of the missing silblings of Mary ann we have been unable to find, is it poss to PM us the info????

This is very exciting as I am sure more than ever that our two families are linked!!! Whoppeeee hopefully we might be getting some where.

Jo
More to come after lunch I hope.

Janet[/QUOTE]

[janbooth]

Oops, sorry Viv. Hope you and Lou are feeling better now Jo. What do you think about the definite link with the Northamptonshire LOVERIDGE I found?? Will PM you with the above info.

Janet

[Joc_42]

Thanks Jan we are doing much better now.

To be honest we havent had much chance to look into it but as its now the school hols we are looking to plot it all out, so I will let you know as soon as we do lol

Jo

[Joc_42]

Ooppppssss message wasn't there and then it arrived !!!!
Have deleted as the same as above.

Jo

[richardstree]

Hi Joc

Just a short update, we went to see Rita and her husband again, they had a couple of old photos which may be of interest to you.

As soon as i get home i will email them to you.

They have also sent for a couple of birth certs, they will be writing to me as soon as they have any information.

I also printed off some of your emails and showed them to Rita, she recognised names, spoke about the Allens. Rita also mentioned that Georgina or Julie had married a farmer and lived in (she thought) Kent.

[Joc_42]

Hi All,

Life so very hetic atm haven't had any time to look into the tree.

Wanted to Thank you all for your hard work esp Lizzy and Janet, I will get back onto the case as soon as I get some free time.

Many Thanks again

Jo

[Joc_42]

Hi All,

So I am finally back on the case, sadly we are not very much further forward, as certs we have order have not yielded what we expected.

We are still unable to find a birth for Mary Ann Loveridge - but we do now know that in her youger years she was always called Polly (so maybe she never was mary ann Who knows??)

We have been supplied with the info as follows:

Adolphus Loveridge was married to Sophia Boswell. His brother Thomas and wife Elizabeth were the parents of Polly, Jumbo, Oakie and Ethel. Thomas also had siblings Joseph, Benjamin and Barthy. I believe that their father was called Elisha as he was named as Adolphus's father on his marriage certificate.

So I am now trying to piece together what we have already all found and try and make some sense out of this family, it does however seem we have finally made a breakthrough!! Yipee!!!

It really wouldnt have made sense without all yr help :-)

Jo

[Joc_42]

[ There is also a burial at Battersea on 21 April 1875 of a Lasher LOVERIDGE (Elias's wife??), aged 55, 8 Europa Place.

Janet[/QUOTE]

Re reading all our posts and noticed this one again - was reading on Romanyjib that stated that a Thomas Loveridge also went by the name Lasher????? (hmmmmm just thought I'd point it out not that it helps lol)

[Joc_42]

[ There is also a burial at Battersea on 21 April 1875 of a Lasher LOVERIDGE (Elias's wife??), aged 55, 8 Europa Place.

Janet

Re reading all our posts and noticed this one again - was reading on Romanyjib that stated that a Thomas Loveridge also went by the name Lasher????? (hmmmmm just thought I'd point it out not that it helps lol)[/QUOTE]

[Lizzy9]

Good to see you back here, Jo |wave|.

I've missed your Loveridges, they are certainly a challenge! I wonder if they are having a good laugh at us, as we chase them all over the country? I bet they are, the little imps! |laugh1|

Considering how difficult tracing Romany family history can be, you have done well in establishing a few relationships.

I will continue to try and help; remind me who are we still looking for? The thread is so long and a few months have passed since I was involved. I know you are still searching for Mary Ann's/Polly's birth cert; what else?

I'm sure Janet will be pleased you've returned, and I shall certainly welcome her back to the thread. We need all the help we can get :wink5:

Catch you later, Jo. Best wishes to you and your mum.

Lizzy

Hi Janet |wave|, welcome back to the Loveridges'. Have you missed them?

[Lizzy9]

Two for the price of one!

Marriages 28 Jun 1884, at Stone – near – Dartford:

Adolphus Loveridge age 28, father Elisha, to Sophia Boswell age 31, father Levi. (I think father Levi is new info)

Bartley Loveridge age 25, father Elisha, to Elizabeth Hunt age 26, father William.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~

I'm unsure whether we already have this!

Deptford, William Loveridge, born 1 Jun 1892, baptised 18 Jun 1892, parents: Thomas and Elizabeth.

[janbooth]

Hi Lizzy,

Welcome back. Yes I have missed the LOVERIDGE family. I think I shall have to re-read all the above posts. It was complicated enough when I knew who and what we were searching for but after the passage of time, no chance!! From my recollections, there were very few, if any, early registrations - most of them seem to have occurred post 1880, prior to that most of the records were in the parish registers. Will definitely have to get back into the swing of this family.

Janet

[Joc_42]

Hi Jan, Thanks for coming back to us !!

Well done Lizzy didnt take you long did it! lol How did you find that ? Do you think we will be lucky enough to find a cert to go with that? (fingers crossed)

Ok so Lizzy asked me yesterday what it is we know and I took your advise Jan and plotted it all out on paper I was up til 2am lol

so here goes this may take a while.............

[Lizzy9]

Well done Lizzy didnt take you long did it! lol How did you find that ? Do you think we will be lucky enough to find a cert to go with that? (fingers crossed)

Yes Jo, here's the gro details for the marriage between Adolphus and Sophia: Jun qrt 1884, Dartford, vol 2a page 714

Ok so Lizzy asked me yesterday what it is we know and I took your advise Jan and plotted it all out on paper I was up til 2am lol

so here goes this may take a while.............

Take your time and good luck.

[Joc_42]

Thomas Loveridge (my GGGF) siblings we know of are Adolphus (who married Sophia Boswell) Joseph (Who married Esther ?) Benjamin & Barthy (Bartholomew) (who married Elizabeth Hunt).

We believe as the others father was Elisha that Thos was too but we cannot prove this as yet, (although proof is subjective I suppose as most of this is word of mouth)

Thos married Elizabeth ____________ (somebody lol) Maybe that Barlett one is worth a look again maybe?

OK Now To Thos Children: (These are not in order sorry)

Sentelina Born 21/6/1889 Baptised 07/07/1889
Margaret May Born 04/05/1899 Baptised 14/05/1899 Died Jul Qtr 1900 Greenwich 1d 607
Jumbo - Who we know had 2 children Rose & Jimmy (speculation is that he was Benjamin??)
Thomas
Oakie
Sophia Fameridge Born 04/10/1883 Baptised 21/10/1883
Ethel (is this Edith on census) Born 1893 married James Lyons 23/10/1910
Mary Ann (Polly) Born 19/04/1875 (or not!! lol) I have noticed that her marriage to Benjamin Banks was on this day so maybe she was just confused?? or maybe she did get married on her Bday.
Henry Born 25/02/1897 Baptised 21/03/1897
Adolphus Born 17/11/1882 Baptised 03/12/1882 Died Dec Qtr 1882 (We sent for his birth cert and although Bapt records show his parents as Thos & Elizabeth on cert it states Barthy & Elizabeth!!!! (Another dead end!)
Robert
Sarah Born 16/08/1895 Baptised 30/08/1895
Albert Born 04/01/1902 Baptised 26/01/1902

We have details for some of Mary ann's children but I'll leave that for another day. lol

So the plan of action we think is to maybe get Elias/Elisha death cert (maybe this will give us their mothers name)
We are also still looking for a suitable birth cert for Mary ann.
Hopefully then we can put together the northamptonshire link because I def think its there its just proving it lol

Ok hopefully that puts us all up to date. Did I miss anything??

Here we go again! Thanks Ladies.

[Joc_42]

[QUOTE.Yes Jo, here's the gro details for the marriage between Adolphus and Sophia: Jun qrt 1884, Dartford, vol 2a page 714
[/QUOTE]

Excellent maybe that would be worth a look - maybe Thomas was a witness??? Now that would be a concrete link!

[Lizzy9]

Forgot to post the other marriage from gro index

Barthy Loveridge and Elizabeth Hunt, Dartford, Jun qrt 1884, vol 2a page 715

[Joc_42]

Lovely.

Not one for Thomas & Elizabeth is there ? or is Thomas Barthy???

[Lizzy9]

I'll try my best later this evening when things are quieter here, I need to have full concentration.

[Lizzy9]

Ok Jo,

There doesn't appear to be a Bart* Loveridge on ANY census return. So I too wonder if Barth/Barty/Barthy is in fact 'your' Thomas! There's a few coincidences pointing toward that theory; both had wives named Elizabeth, both had sons named Thomas, Adolphus' (born 1882) baptism record has parents Thos and Elizabeth, his birth certificate names his parents Barthy and Elizabeth.

Here's a baptism we found before with parents named Barthea and Elizabeth.

Thomas Loveridge, born 15 Jan 1885, bap. 1 Feb 1885 at St Paul, Deptford. I do think it's possible this Thomas is Mary Ann's brother. I've searched for baptisms with father Bart* and this is the only one; so unless Bart* died soon after Thos was born it is strange there's no other children baptised to him.

[Lizzy9]

Another of Elisha's children?

Louisa Loveridge Loveridge, bap. 10 Aug 1850, at Kinfare, Stafford, parents: Elisha and Diana

[Lizzy9]

Marriage Oct 23 1910 at Christ Church St Pauls Deptford.

James Lyons, 18, bachelor, occ PDC Office?, 50, Hale Street, father Edwin Lyons (decorator)
Ethel Loveridge, 17, spinster, 50 Hale Street, father Thomas (coster)

Witnesses George Hunt and Lucy Thomas. Both James and Ethel signed.

Could George Hunt be related to Elizabeth Hunt who married Barthea Loveridge?

[janbooth]

Hi Jo et al,

Slowly getting back into the swing of things and looking on FreeReg site for Northamptonshire LOVERIDGE baptisms have come across this one for what could be a son of Benjamin:

15 May 1851 at Daventry John LOVERIDGE son of Benjamin & Jane, Daventry, Basket Maker. It is in the correct timescale for baptisms to your Thomas's brothers.

More to come.

Janet

[janbooth]

Perhaps the marriage of Elisha LOVERIDGE?

Elisha LOVERIDGE June qtr 1842 at Wolverhampton reg district, vol 17, page 268 and one of the other names on the page is that of a Diana LOVERIDGE

Janet

[Lizzy9]

A possible marriage for Elisha, 3 May 1842, at Kinfare, Stafford.

Elisha Loveridge father James to Diana Loveridge father Thomas

[janbooth]

Snap Lizzy, but your info has more detail!!

Now, I'm going backs to basics again and I can't remember what you already have Jo BUT originally you mentioned from family info about William & Dorcas and I found the baptism via FreeReg of a Moses LOVERIDGE on 6 March 1817 at Stoke Bruerne, Northants parents William & Dorcas, Basket Maker travelling through. Well I decided to revisit FreeReg and see qhat baptisms etc I could find in Northants for LOVERIDGEs. So here we go - I'll leave you to decide where they fit in with the info you already have:

8 March 1818 at Moulton Elisha LOVERIDGE son of James & Esther, Towcester, Gipsies & Travellers
12 June 1824 at Twywell Clara LOVERIDGE daughter James & Hester, Anywhere (love that bit!), Gypsies

31 March 1822 at Collingtree Dian LOVERIDGE daughter of Thos & Ann, Towcester, Gilsey (presumably Gypsy)

11 December 1781 at Nether Heyford James LOVERIDGE son of William & Rosamund, Travellers

and another one that may be relevant 19 July 1807 at Irchester Cinderella? daughter Moses LOVERIDGE

Then this baptism caught my eye because of the name:

12 March 1837 at Stoke Bruerne Asher LOVERIDGE son of Thomas & Winifred, Towcester, Licensed Hawker plus 2 other baptisms to this couple, a Hezekiah on 26 Oct 1834 and a Matilda on 8 March 1837.

Janet

[janbooth]

I think I have repeated myself on the info above - have just trawled through all 6 pages again - but I think it has refreshed my memory somewhat (or confused me once again!!). Could the burial of Lasher LOVERIDGE that I found in 1875, aged 55, be the father of Esther LOVERIDGE who married William COOPER in 1874 (father shown as Lashey) and the Elisha LOVERIDGE baptised in 1818 at Moulton, parents James & Esther, who married Diana LOVERIDGE in 1842 at Kinfare. The age at death fits in pretty well with the baptismal date above.

Looking back at the Northamptonshire Marriage Index 1700-1837, I have come up with the following LOVERIDGE marriages (they might fit into place better now):

6 March 1780 at Northampton All Saints William LOVERAGE, of the parish, Soldier in the Oxford Militia married Rosamund SMITH, of the parish, spinster.

15 January 1770 at Alderton Benjamin LOVERIDGE, of the parish, bachelor and Tramper married Mary TRAVELL, of the parish, spinster and Tramper

4 July 1816 at Burton Latimer James LOVERIDGE, of the parish, bachelor married Hester SMITH, of the parish, spinster

This next one also sounds as if it could be relevant:

8 August 1823 at Irchester Diveris SMITH, of the parish married Suzify LOVERIDGE, of the parish

The following are marriages from the Index 1837-60 which I think may be relevant from re-reading through the posts:

19 May 1851 at Warmington Cainey SMITH, bach, 19, Basket Maker, father Henry, Fidler married Leudans LOVERIDGE, spinster 19, Basket Maker, father James, Basket Maker
3 April 1843 at Greens Norton George SMART, bachelor, full age, Labourer, father Joh, Labourer married Sinfine LOVERIDGE of Duncott, spinster, full age, Basket Maker, father William, Basket Maker

I seem to remember the names Leudans & Sinfine cropping up before but I could be wrong in that assumption!

There is also the marriage on 24 January 1859 at Paulersbury of Ashton LOVERIGE, bachelor, full age, Basket Maker, father Thomas, Basket Maker and Matilda LOVERIGE, spinster, full age, Basket Maker, father Job, Brazier - probably the Asher baptism I found above.

3 other marriages all at Towcester of Eliza LOVERIDGE, father Thomas, to John LOVERIDGE, father William in 1847, Theanna LOVERIDGE, father Thomas, to Aaron SKERRY, father Thomas, in 1837 and Zilla LOVERIDGE, father James, to Thomas LOVERIDGE, father William, in 1844. If any of these ring a bell and you need more details, just let me know.

I think I have already given you most of the male LOVERIDGE marriages in an earlier post, but it is interesting that there are 3 SKERRY children of Thomas who marry LOVERIDGEs, Moses & Plato (sons of William & Dorcas) marrying Hannah & Mary respectively.

Am now checking census records for any LOVERIDGE's born Northants and will see what I come up with.

Janet

[janbooth]

Also checked Ancestry for searches on LOVERIDGE surname with dates of birth bet 1874 & 1884 (really looking for Polly/Mary Ann) and the search came up with the following marriage at Wesleyan Central Hall, High Street, Plumstead. I don't know if anyone has found it before, but in case not:

31 May 1916 Bert LOVERIDGE, 29, bachelor, Labourer, Caravan Occupation Lane Plumstead, father Thomas, Labourer & Bessie JOHNSON, 25, spinster, Hawker, Caravan Occupation Lane Plumstead, father Charles, Licensed Hawker. Witnesses: Lucy BOSWELL, Phoebe MOORE (X) & William NIGHTINGALE. Both Bert & Bessie made their mark.

Must stop now to cook some tea. Hope some of this turns out to be useful.

Janet

[Joc_42]

Thats a lot to process Jan lol Thank you I'll have a good look at it over the weekend.

I've still got to link Elisha to my Thomas and then work out who Elisha's father is lol (easy peasey lol)

Lizzy the more I look at it the more I think that Thomas could be Barthy - Being as we cant find a marriage for Thomas & Elizabth but can for Barthy & Elizabeth and then theres adolophus' birth cert.

More to ponder I think????

[Joc_42]

Ok ladies what do you think of this???

Birth of Barthw (transcribed) on record I read it as Barthea Leveridge 27/04/1859 Father Elisha Mother Diana @ St Mary the virgin, Bedfont Honslow Middlesex in Abode box it says wait for it ........ travelling through 2 bedford ??? (I was hoping it said deptford) of Denton ?? Northampton.

So do we think this could be Thomas' birth cert ????

[Lizzy9]

Hi Jo,

It looks promising! Is it from a website? Or have you seen the parish register?

[Lizzy9]

Found it! It does look a strong possibility. Remind me, have we found your Loveridge's in Deptford as early as 1859? I can't remember, could they have moved from Northant's to Deptford later?

[Joc_42]

No the earliest we have found them is 1881 as far as I can remember but that fits in with us being told they came off the road in the 1890's to settle.

Elias was in daventry in 1861 census at Drayton Hamlet and in Chelsea in 1871 - (so ever closer to Deptford)

[Joc_42]

Also found an Alfred Loverage bapt 13/jul/1857 Parents Elisha & Diana Labourer travelling through Bedfont Of Denton Northhants

Same Church as before! OOOOOOOO !!!

Checked from 1844 to 61 no more in the area but they obv took a while to travel through bedfont lol

[janbooth]

Well spotted Jo. At least it helps to pin down where Elisha & Diana were during those years. We do always seem to come back to Northamptonshire, don't we.

Janet

[Lizzy9]

Found this ref to graves in Ladywell and Brockley Cenetery.

Adolphus LOVERIDGE 1932 age 85
Louisa LOVERIDGE 1942 age 63 Wife
Henry LOVERIDGE 1963 age 82 Husband
Norah PORTER 1963 69
Grave ref 8618.

And also,

Grave ref 8619. John Levi LOVERIDGE 1922 age 3

And

Grave ref 7214. Caroline Elizabeth BOLTON 1936 age 86
Helen Louisa LOVERIDGE 1936 age 56
Edmund Robert LOVERIDGE 1950 age 77

[Joc_42]

It does Jan. Will be seeing mum tomorrow to order more certs.

Which do we think would be most helpful?

Well done Lizzy. Thats very interesting - I wonder if there is a map of the plots as I would love to go there and see them (hope the doesnt sound odd)

Also how did you find these? I ask because I know where my GM is buried but I couldnt find a grave ref and I spent hours wandering around to no avail.

[Lizzy9]

Jo,

Google 'North West Kent Family History Society Project'

Right hand side of page under memorial inscriptions

[Lizzy9]

Will be seeing mum tomorrow to order more certs.

Which do we think would be most helpful?

Definitely Elisha and Diana's marriage cert, we know their father's names, but it will be useful to know whether they were still alive and who the witnesses were.

[Joc_42]

Yes that was def one we were going to go for.

Sadly, my GGM was buried in Grove Park and they dont seem to list their graves!!! Darn it! Oh well.

[janbooth]

I agree with Lizzy - definitely Elisha & Diana's cert. Witnesses names could be very useful. Yet more info to overload you, as looking through the Family Search Pilot have come up with this marriage in Bletchley, Bucks

15 March 1846 Moses LOVERIDGE son of Benjamin & Jane BATES daughter of John. Could this Benjamin, father of Moses, be the Benjamin son William & Dorcas??

I think looking through this site for any LOVERIDGE records could prove a treasure trove for you - admittedly there are 128 pages of them but some could prove real gems and you can narrow it down by search on specific forenames, years and baptisms or marriages.

And this may prove to be one of the gems:

2 February 1823 at Puddington, Bedford Thomas LOVERIDGE son of William & Dorcas baptised AND 20 July 1812 at Olney, Bucks William LOVERIDGE married Dorcas SMITH (another Olney connection) - they do seem to have set routes they travelled on don't they.

More baptisms now:

8 April 1814 at Winwick, Hunts Plato LOVERIDGE son of Wm & Dorcas baptised
16 March 1817 at Stoke Bruerne Moses LOVERIDGE son or William & Dorcas baptised (which we already have)
16 March 1817 at Stoke Bruerne Hosa LOVERIDGE son of William & Dorea baptised
28 May 1820 at Olney, Bucks Saintfoy LOVERIDGE daughter of William & Dorcas baptised
22 May 1825 at Puddington, Bedford John LOVERIDGE son of William & Dorcas baptised

Using this site carefully and the records that are available, i.e. searching on the names of the children of William & Dorcas, you should be able to plot, to a certain degree, where they were at certain times. There are baptisms for the children of a Benjamin & Hannah, John & Jane, James & Esther, etc. and you may be able to find more marriages.

Janet

[Joc_42]

Hi All,

Havent spend the aft on a whim wandering around Ladywell & Brockley Cemetery (although we knew it was a longshot it was such a lovely day) Sadly we didnt fing them, so even when we know where they are buried we still cant find these Loveridges!!!!! lol

Anyway, I ordered today Elias loveridges Death cert (Hoping that the informant will give us some more leads) - We didnt go for Elisha marriage cert this time as on one of Lizzys posts it states who their fathers were, so we thought we would save that for next time.

We also order Barthy & Elizabeth marriage cert from 1884 - I'm sure you both will have already noticed but I'd like to share it anyway.

On the mystery of Adolphus c1882 birth cert it states parents as we have said before as Barthy & Elizabeth it then states Loveridge Formally Hunt!!!! when infact Elizabeth wasnt Mrs Loveridge offically until 1884!!

So my point is; Could Mary Ann c1875 Jumbo and some of the earlier children be registered under Elizabeth name of HUNT?

I have also been looking more at Elisha and I have found a baptism for him:
8 Mar 1818 in Moulton - St Peter & St Paul
Parents James & Esther (Towcester)

Funnily enough his bride Diana is listed directly below him even though bapt 4 yrs later, it was like they were destined for eachother! lol

I also found this;

James Loveridge Baptised 11 Dec 1781
Nether Heyford
St Peter & St Paul
Parents William & Rosamond

Do you think I can make the leap that this James is Elisha's father as it is the same church or am I getting ahead of myself?

So I know that was alot of info and I hope it makes sense.

Jo

[Lizzy9]

Hi Jo,

You've done really well, and yes it makes complete sense. I think it a strong possibility that James Loveridge baptised 1781 at Nether Heyford is Elisha's father.

For the last 90 mins I have been trying to make sense of Mary Ann's ancestry, and try as I may I could not take it back to William and Dorcas; I now think that's because William and Dorcas are not a direct line. Elisha's marriage to Diana stating father James, and the baptism you found for Elisha, father James, suggest William and Dorcas are not direct ancestors, though keep them on file as they may fit into your tree as a side branch.

I know how frustrating it can be to trail a cemetery and not find the grave you are looking for. Lewisham seem to charge an absolute fortune for mapping out the plot, at least where most of my ancestors are buried (Yorkshire) it's either free info, or costs very little.

I now think we are getting further with the Loveridges. Here's how I see the male line back from Mary Ann.

Mary Ann circa 1875 - 1880
Father: Thomas/Barthea circa 1855
Father: Elisha circa 1818
Father: James (if your find is the right baptism) circa 1781
Father: William

[Joc_42]

I now think we are getting further with the Loveridges. Here's how I see the male line back from Mary Ann.

Mary Ann circa 1875 - 1880
Father: Thomas/Barthea circa 1855
Father: Elisha circa 1818
Father: James (if your find is the right baptism) circa 1781
Father: William

I agree Lizzy, I think we are finally getting somewhere. Im not sure where William and Dorcas came in anyway, I asked mum, someone else had linked them on a family tree but I think they just served to confuse us further lol

Now to see if we can get any further back??!!!! Pushingmy luck now lol

[Lizzy9]

Now to see if we can get any further back??!!!! Pushingmy luck now lol

Hi Jo,

Don't try to run before you can walk :smilewinkgrin: Your best next moves would be to research Elizabeth Hunt's ancestry, Thomas/Barthea's siblings, and keep going sideways and back thus.

[Joc_42]

Lol Funny I just said that same thing to mum as she said we will soon be able to move on to the Sibthorpe side lol

Ok will do, had a quick look for william cant find him lol

[Lizzy9]

Jo,

Do you have a family tree software package? If not and you don't want to go to the expense of buying one there are some free to download ones; all your research would be together and more organised. To find free packages google 'free family tree software'.

[Joc_42]

We use Anc**** but I find it very confusing to track on there, so pen and paper works best atm.

Do you thonk there is a diff one that would be easier?

[Lizzy9]

We use Anc**** but I find it very confusing to track on there, so pen and paper works best atm.

Do you thonk there is a diff one that would be easier?

Yes, Jo. Have play around with one; there's a few which are free.

[Lizzy9]

This census for 1891 I think is 'your' Thomas; though why he's enumerated as Adolphus .......well! Same reason as he sometimes called himself Bart* Must be him though as children's names, wife's name and ages all fit. I also believe Jumbo's actual name is Thomas, as Thomas and Elizabeth have a son Thomas age 18 in 1901, and there's no baptism for a Jumbo, but one for Thomas in 1885. Gosh! this lot lead a merry dance :wink:

Stanhope St. RG12/494/117/34 (Crown copyright, in care of TNA)
Adolphus Loveridge 28
Elizabeth Loveridge 34
Polly Loveridge 13
Jumbo Loveridge 6
Adolphus Loveridge 10/12

And Adolphus his brother, in Hale St. RG12/ 494/109/17 (Crown copyright, in care of TNA)
Adolphas Loverage 36
Sinplere Loverage 39
Thomas Loverage 19
Herny Loverage 10
John Loverage 6
Emily Loverage 2

[Joc_42]

Yes we too think this is our Thomas, who knows maybe a misunderstanding or he just didnt feel like being Thomas that day who knows lol

Yes we have wondered that a Jumbo too, his bapt fits at least.

I dont think we will ever have any certainities with this family.

[Lizzy9]

Could this be Mary Ann's birth reg? I can't find a Mary Ann Lovage on census returns, however I've not looked for a death.

Mary Ann LOVAGE, Apr-Jun 1878, Dartford, Kent. vol 2a page 417.

[Joc_42]

Could this be Mary Ann's birth reg? I can't find a Mary Ann Lovage on census returns, however I've not looked for a death.

Mary Ann LOVAGE, Apr-Jun 1878, Dartford, Kent. vol 2a page 417.

Wow Lizzy !!! This must be it how exciting!!!

[janbooth]

Hi Jo,

Sorry if I have confused you further. I did the research on William & Dorcas because earlier on you thought they were linked to your family. Looking at the timescale for them, William could perhaps be a brother to Elisha, so as Lizzy suggests I would keep them on file.

Looking at the map, Lower Heyford is not too far away from Moulton or Towcester, so there is a strong possiblity that this baptism could be Elisha's father.

The other thing I noticed yesterday when looking on the Family Search Pilot site for any baptisms of a Polly LOVERIDGE was the fact that lots of Mary/Mary Ann baptisms popped up, so Polly is obviously a common diminutive for Mary or Mary Ann.

Janet

[Lizzy9]

Wow Lizzy !!! This must be it how exciting!!!

I'm not so sure, Jo. There was a Lovage family living in Kent on the census.

[Lizzy9]

I'm not so sure, Jo. There was a Lovage family living in Kent on the census.

Just checked that family out and they were Lovage in 1891 living Greenwich, but Lovridge in 1881 living Lewisham, they don't have a Mary Ann.

The certificate may well be worth a gamble. I cannot find Mary Ann Lovage/Lovridge etc born 1878 on census returns, or a death.

[janbooth]

Right, we are all agreed it is a strong possibility that Elisha and Diana LOVERIDGE are the parents of your Thomas/Adolphus/Barthea.

We can place Elisha and Diana in Kinfare in 1842 when they marry and we know that Elisha's father is James and Diana's father is Thomas. Elisha and Diana's next sighting is in Bedfont, Hounslow where they have children Alfred and Barthea (aka Thomas/Adolphus we hope) in 1857 and 1859 respectively.

I think that the Elias you have found in Drayton in 1861 may not be your Elisha - the age is way out and for the life of me I can't imagine them misrepresenting Diana as Lorame and there is no Alfred or Barthy living with them. This Elias is supposedly born c1840 in Stourbridge - could he perhaps be a child of Elisha & Diana and the one who turns up in St George, Battersea married to a Laura who has a child Clara baptised and buried in 1873 of Stewarts Lane?

However, this Elias is in Alexandra Rd, Hammersmith in the 1871 census, shown as aged 33 (therefore born c1838 Dudley) with wife Lelora (Laura??) and children Joseph, Fanny, Thomas and Alverdine, Thomas being the one we thought could be the father of Mary Ann aka Polly - aaargh. However, the name Alverdine is very interesting. Going back at least one generation (maybe 2), James & Esther LOVERIDGE had the following children that I have found:

Elisha bap 8 March 1818 at Moulton
Priscilla bap 2 June 1822 at Loddington
Clara bap 12 June 1823 at Twywell
Hephizibale (female) bap 4 November 1827 at Kettering
Selinda bap 3 June 1832 at Cransley
Esther bap 26 April 1835 at Irthlingborough

Looking on my Northants Marriage Index, Clara LOVERIDGE married an Alverdine SMITH on 3 March 1845 at Kingsthorpe - not a common forename.

There is also a marriage on 19 May 1851 at Warmington of a Leudans LOVERIDGE, aged 19, father James, Basket Maker, to a Cainey SMITH, aged 19, Basket Maker, father Henry, Fidler, so could this be the Selinda who was baptised in 1832? Then a Zilla LOVERIDGE (Hephizibale?), full age, father James, Gipsy Pedlar who married Thomas LOVERIDGE, full age, Gipsy Pedlar, father William, Gipsy Pedlar at Towcester.

Could the burial I found of Lasher LOVERIDGE in Battersea in 1875 aged 55 of 8 Europa Place be either Elisha or Elias? Help, I'm getting a headache again. Will go and have some lunch and try to put my thoughts in order again.

Janet

[janbooth]

Could this be your Elizabeth HUNT who married Barthea/Thomas or is it just a coincidence that this family is living at Stanhope Street as well?

1871 census of St Paul Deptford
RG10/742, folio 87, page 5
28 Stanhope Street

Ambrose HUNT Head Widower 46 Costermonger Kent Deptford
William do Son Unm 19 do do do
Anney do Daur Unm 17 do do
Eliza do Daur 12 Scholar do do
Sarah do Daur 9 do do do

In the 1861 census the family are in St Paul Deptford, Ambrose being married to an Anne and Eliza now referred to as Elizabeth.

Janet

[janbooth]

No scrub that one, she is still unmarried and visiting her sister Sarah together with siblings Emma & Ambrose - thought it was too easy!

There is also an Eliza HUNT born c1861 (says 1863 on census but her baptism shows born 1861) in the 1871 census of Greenwich living at 5 Prospect Place Court with father James, aged 39, a Carman, born Repton Middlesex, mother Emma and siblings William, Henry, Emma & James. I can't find this Eliza HUNT in the 1881 census but I can find sister Emma who is shown as a Domestic Servant in Lodgings in St Paul Deptford. Mother Emma HUNT appears to be back in Walthamstow shown as a widow living with father William NUNN. Looks as if husband James died in 1800 at Greenwich according to the GRO.

Hopefully the marriage certificate of Barthy & Elizabeth will give us more clues. Looking back at census records for Elizabeth LOVERIDGE, I am not sure any longer when she was born or where.

Janet

[Joc_42]

Sorry if I have confused you further. I did the research on William & Dorcas because earlier on you thought they were linked to your family. Looking at the timescale for them, William could perhaps be a brother to Elisha, so as Lizzy suggests I would keep them on file.



Janet, I never meant for a moment that you had confused us, we were the ones who introduced them, I apologise if you felt I was saying otherwise, all your help has been invaluable.

We will def give that cert a go we can but try.

[Joc_42]

There is also an Eliza HUNT born c1861 (says 1863 on census but her baptism shows born 1861) in the 1871 census of Greenwich living at 5 Prospect Place Court with father James, aged 39, a Carman, born Repton Middlesex, mother Emma and siblings William, Henry, Emma & James. I can't find this Eliza HUNT in the 1881 census but I can find sister Emma who is shown as a Domestic Servant in Lodgings in St Paul Deptford. Mother Emma HUNT appears to be back in Walthamstow shown as a widow living with father William NUNN. Looks as if husband James died in 1800 at Greenwich according to the GRO.

Hopefully the marriage certificate of Barthy & Elizabeth will give us more clues. Looking back at census records for Elizabeth LOVERIDGE, I am not sure any longer when she was born or where.

Janet

Yes hopefully the cert will tell us more, this does look promising.

[Joc_42]

Alfred and Barthea (aka Thomas/Adolphus we hope) in 1857 and 1859 respectively. Yes I read somewhere that Adolphus was often known as Alfred so maybe this time they did it the other way around??

I think that the Elias you have found in Drayton in 1861 may not be your Elisha - the age is way out and for the life of me I can't imagine them misrepresenting Diana as Lorame (I too thought that this could be Laura) and there is no Alfred or Barthy living with them. yes I see what you mean.


Could the burial I found of Lasher LOVERIDGE in Battersea in 1875 aged 55 of 8 Europa Place be either Elisha or Elias? We have found a death cert in greenwich for an Elias that we have sent off for, I will bare this one in mind if that is not the correct one Help, I'm getting a headache again. Sorry about the heade, these Loveridges def seem to have that effect on people lol

Janet

I hope the highlighting worked???

Jo

[Lizzy9]

I've found Barthy's and Adolphus' marriage cert's on the Cityark website. Unfortunately at the moment the witnesses hold no clues; they were Francis Henry Curtis and Sarah Stevens. Both Barthy and Adolphus gave their address as Stone, and their father's occupation as labourer, Elizabeth's father was a labourer, Sophia's father's occupation wasn't noted. I hope you haven't sent for the marriage cert yet, Jo?

On Cityark go to Stone Parish Registers - Marriages up to 1884 - I can't remember which file it is but it's about sixth or seventh from the bottom.

[Joc_42]

We have indeed Lizzy but not to worry.

The witnesses were then same on several different marriages on that day, so poss not known to the couples.

Maybe the 4 of them set of to stone that day to get married!! I wondered if this was because the Vicar at St Pauls & Christchurch thought they were already married maybe???

[Lizzy9]

It's always nice to have a copy of the certificate, Jo. Just sorry I didn't find it earlier.

There's a possible death reg for Diana, the age is a bit out but the Loveridge's did tend to age slower than everyone else!

Diana Loveridge, est birth yr abt 1831, Jan - Mar 1881, Greenwich, 1d 577

So, where is this Diana on the census records? Maybe she had a pseudonym?

[janbooth]

Well spotted again Lizzy. So, if one believes the info on the marriage certificate, Elizabeth was born c1855 and her father was a William. Right, that eliminates the Eliza I found previously. Back to the drawing board!!

I tell you what, Jo, your family makes my lot look distinctly commonplace!!

So, if Diana died in 1881 at Greenwich where the heck is she on any census records as you have so rightly said Lizzy.

Right back to some more trawling of the records!!

Janet

[janbooth]

Can't do my maths - Elizabeth born c1858.

Janet

[Joc_42]

I know Janet, we there certainly leading us a merry dance!! lol

I do feel know that we are making progress and a lot of the info we have found previously is now fitting in.

Jo

[janbooth]

Given the death registration that Lizzy has found for Diana, could this be Elisha in the 1881 census. We had already found this census record when we first started looking, but perhaps it makes a little more sense now, especially as he is next door to Adolphus & Sophia in Stanhope St. I know his age is way out, but that is not unusual is it.

RG11/701, folio 107, page 33
Elia LOVERIDGE Head Widr 37 Pedlar Staffordshire
William do Son 5 Uxbridge
Fanny do Daur 11 Peterborough

I also wonder if the Lasher LOVERIDGE burial record in Battersea is for the Elias married to Lelora in the 1871 census as again it is the correct area. It would probably be useful to get the death certificate of Diana sometime, just to see if she was a widow or not when she died and who was the informant. If she is the correct Diana, she would not figure in the census records cos she was dead by the 1881 census and none of your line seem to figure in the census records until 1881.

Off for some lunch now.

Janet

[GB.Lover]

Hi my name is Graham and I am a newish member and this is my first posting.
My Great Grandfather was Adolphus Loveridge and Great Grandmother his wife Sophia Boswell. I have a copy of their marriage certificate. They married 28th June 1884 in St.Marys Church,Stone in Kent.
I also have a copy of Adolphus's parents Elisha and Diana's marriage 3rd May 1842 in the parish of Kinver in the county of Stafford.
Although I am fairly new to researching my tree, is there any help I can give from the Adolphus side of the family.
Graham

[Lizzy9]

Hi Graham,

Welcome to Brit-Gen. It's good to see you here; we need all the help we can get!! So anything you can offer to help the search, please do. Do you know when Elisha and Diana died? Also have you sighted them on any census returns?

I hope this very long thread is useful to your research.

[Joc_42]

Hi Graham,

Welcome, this is def the place to come if you need any help with your research, everyone is very helpful.

I was the one who started this thread, poor Lizzy & Janet have very kindly been helping me with my research as I have tried for several years to track down this family.

Do you know any of the family history? I am really looking for info on Thomas Loveridge who was father of Mary Ann (Polly). I would be grateful for any info you have.

Regards Jo