Holland,Wall, Lloyd Family from Ashton Underlyne

[dutchie]

I am search the following, George Atkinson Holland born Aug,26 1882 in Manchester England.Married Dorothy Lloyd. She was born Aug.24 1884 Pemberton England.
They had one known son Harold Holland born Aug 31 1907.He was born in Pontypool, Wales or Manchester, England.George is the Father of Harold,mother is unknown ( Davies )
George,Dorothy and son Harold immigrated to East Kelowna, B.C, Canada in 1919.
Harold Holland, Married Edith Wall,in Ashton Underlyne England.1944
Harold returned to Kelown B.C 1945 on a troop ship.Then sent for his family.Wife and son
I am trying to do my family tree, so;
If anyone has connection to these family names I would be interested in learning more about them
Just a few other names from Ashton Underlyne: John Lloyd born 1880`s. Hubert, Ivy, Clara, Cissie,Charles Wall all born between 1895-1910. ??
Thank you Dutchie

[Trish]

...Dorothy Lloyd. She was born Aug.24 1884 Pemberton England...Dutchie,

Do you have the following info from the 1891 census -- living at 42A Scots Field [not sure of this name -- handwriting is faint on image], Pemberton Lancashire in a 3-room dwelling:

Name / Age in 1891 / Birthplace / Relationship to head-of-house / Occupation
Lloyd, William 36 Flint, thintshire Head Coal Miner
Lloyd, Elizabeth 30 Pemberton, Lancashire Wife
Lloyd, Hugh 9 Pemberton, Lancashire Son Scholar
Lloyd, John 8 Pemberton, Lancashire Son Scholar
Lloyd, Dorothy 6 Pemberton, Lancashire Daughter Scholar
Lloyd, Charlotte 4 Pemberton, Lancashire Daughter Scholar
Lloyd, Jane E 2 Pemberton, Lancashire Daughter
Lloyd, William 11/12 Pemberton, Lancashire Son

Source information: RG12/3065
Registration district: Wigan
Sub registration district: Pemberton
ED, institution, or vessel:14
Folio: 10
Page: 13

Trish

[Trish]

...George Atkinson Holland born Aug,26 1882 in Manchester England.Could this be your HOLLAND household in 1891 at 16 Bury Street in Ashton under Lyne?

Name / Age in 1891 / Birthplace / Relationship to head-of-house / Occupation
Holland, William 36 HUNT Head Fire Beater
Holland, Ellen 30 duckinfield, Cheshire Wife Cotton Operative
Holland, Samuel 9 Mossley, Lancashire Son Scholar
Holland, George 7 Mossley, Lancashire Son Scholar
Holland, Fred 5 Mossley, Lancashire Son Scholar
Holland, Hannah 3 Mossley, Lancashire Daughter

Source information: RG12/3295
Registration district: Ashton Under Lyne
Sub registration district: Hartshead
ED, institution, or vessel: 11
Folio: 125
Page: 9

[uksearch]

This may have nothing to do with your family,but Freebmd gives the birth of a Harold HOLLAND...Sept qtr 1907 Wigan 8c 37.

Pemberton was in the Wigan RD.

UK

[dutchie]

Thank you one and all for your help....the Lloyd information seems to jive with what I was able to ferret out myself...they actually had 13 children .....as an aside I live in Ontario Canada so as inviting as visiting the various record facilities might be...it is a costly venture...
Yes UK I have been eyeing that listing for Harold Holland....found one in Pontypool Wales for the same time and under the name Davies which we were lead to believe was the birth name...George Holland( my grandfather) was supposedly the biological dad as well as the one who raised him...along with Dorothy Lloyd, my grandmother.

To add further confusion to the mix Janet Lloyd and Dorothy Lloyd were sisters and were married to my grandads...George Holland and Charles Wall.

Is it possible for anyone to shed some light on the Wall family....lived at 55 Field Street...probably Droylsden for years and one daughter Cissie raised her daughter June there....could be from the early 1900's until the 60's or so...Also my grandad Charles Wall's family for the most part born and raised at 16 the Quadrant in Droylsden...know for sure they were there in 1944 and in 1965 when I was a youngster and met them...wife was Janet...children...Edith(my mom...emigrated to Canada as a war bride)..Albert, Geoffrey, Florence, Allan, Keith, Doris, Ernest and a baby Bernard who lived a very short time...

Well that's my immediate past in a nutshell...my parents died when I was 21 and 23 respectively and with them the answers to a lot of questions.....I appreciate this and for the little searching I have done, have found it addictive and fascinating( undercovered a second family in Princeton Bc...sired by my grandad Holland....not met them just know they exist).....Cheers and thanks again for any help'
Dutchie

[Trish]

You are most welcome, Dutchie. I neglected to mention to you that I did do a check for your WALLs but didn't see any given names that matched your list. I'll look again under Droylsden...

[Cissie must be short for something... Catherine, Charlotte, Clara... do you know?]

Okay, in the 1901 census there are the following names of people born after 1891: Charles [born c1888, lived at 12 Chapel St.], Edith, John, Joseph, Patrick, Richard -- all born and living in Droylsden. I believe almost all of them -- with the exception of Patrick -- were in the same family. Do any of these sound familiar to you?

Trish

[Trish]

...To add further confusion to the mix Janet Lloyd and Dorothy Lloyd were sisters and were married to my grandads...George Holland and Charles Wall....Dutchie,

Do I have this right... if Dorothy and Janet Lloyd married your two [paternal and maternal?] grandfathers, then your parents were cousins?

I can't do a search easily by street unless it's in the 1881 census. You think 55 Field Street is in Droylsden? I know there's one in Everton but haven't found it anywhere else so far... a family named Shaw is living there in '81. Not much help, I'm afraid.

Trish

[dutchie]

Apparently Dorothy was not my dad's mom ....his father George was his dad but the mom was supposedly a domestic servant from Pontypool, Wales.
Charles Wall had Herbert, Ivy, Clara for sure as siblings..could have been more...I thought maybe Cissie was short for Sarah but can't confirm that...
Also I am not sure where Field street was located to be honest....only ever visited that part of England in 1963 or so when we lived there for a few months before deciding to stay in Canada....pretty sure I attended Fairfield Road School...although I understand its no longer there...I think my mom attended it as well and she was born in 1920... Thanks again for your help.

[Trish]

Apparently Dorothy was not my dad's mom ....his father George was his dad but the mom was supposedly a domestic servant from Pontypool, Wales.
Charles Wall had Herbert, Ivy, Clara for sure as siblings..could have been more...I thought maybe Cissie was short for Sarah but can't confirm that...Well, your family tree sounds quite intriguing.

Could Hubert actually be the Herbert I can see in the same family as Charles in 1901? In case it helps you, here's a Charles WALL family living in a 4-room dwelling at 20 Eleaner or Eleanor Street in Droylsden [1891 for same family to follow...]:

Name / Age in 1901 / Birthplace / Relationship / Occupation
Charles Wall 30 Openshaw, Lancashire, England Head Labourer Engineers Works? [...this word is difficult to decipher]
Sarah J Wall 29 Openshaw, Lancashire, England Wife
Charles A Wall 5 Droylsden, Lancashire, England Son
Herbert Wall 3 Droylsden, Lancashire, England Son
John H Wall 9 Openshaw, Lancashire, England Son
Joseph Wall 1 Openshaw, Lancashire, England Son

Source information: RG13/3788
Registration district: Ashton-under-Lyne
Sub-registration district: Audenshaw
ED, institution, or vessel: 17
Folio: 152
Page: 14
Household schedule number: 75

[Trish]

[Apologies for the inevitable repeating text -- gremlins. Look only at the first and last households. Ignore the middle one -- it's wrong, but I can't get rid of it.]

Charles WALL's family living at 20 Ezard[???] Street in Openshaw, Lancashire:

Name / Age in 1891 / Birthplace / Relationship / Occupation
Wall, John 58 Wednesbury, Staffordshire Head [Widower] Portering[?] with Cart
Schofield, Charles 21 hooley hill, Lancashire Son-in-law Openshaw Lancashire
Schofield, Rachel A 19 openshaw, Lancashire Daughter Openshaw Lancashire
Schofield, John Robert 7 days openshaw, Lancashire Grandchild Openshaw Lancashire
Wall, Charles 20 openshaw, Lancashire Son Openshaw Lancashire Labourer Print[?]Works
Wall, Henry 1 openshaw, Lancashire Grandchild
Dibb, Faith 27 Clayton, Lancashire Boarder [Widow]

What's curious, given your George HOLLAND's middle name of Atkinson, is that there is an ATKINSON family living just up the street at 14 Ezard[???]. And it looks like the WALLs and the ATKINSONs have both taken in members of the DIBB family -- a young widow and her children. Maybe the two families are related...

Name / Age in 1891 / Birthplace / Relationship / Occupation
Atkinson, Julius 30 Bradford, Yorkshire Head Finisher [or Furnisher]
Atkinson, Grace 27 Clayton, Lancashire Wife
Atkinson, Ada 15 [age looks like 15 but probably 5] Openshaw, Lancashire Daughter Scholar
Atkinson, Annie 7/12 openshaw, Lancashire Daughter
Hunt, Sarah 68 Manchester, Lancashire Mother Nurse [the word "Sick" is written in a different hand following the word "Nurse"]
Dibb, Lewis 6 Manchester, Lancashire Boarder Scholar
Dibb, Grace 1 droylsden, Lancashire Boarder

Source information: RG12/3180
Registration district: Chorlton
Sub registration district: Ardwick
ED, institution, or vessel: 87
Folio: 19
Page: 30, 31

[dutchie]

Hello again and thanks...think it would be the family in Elenor Street....with it having a Herbert...I have some WW1 postcards sent to Charles from a Herbert so we know that is a sibling...
Have no idea where the middle name Atkinson came from...that family is a real mystery...apparently Dorothy and George were married in 1901...when I have searched I found a Dorothy Lloyd whose marraige was registered in Sept 1901 and a George Holland whose marraige was registered in March 1901....so who knows...
Off to visit my brother who turns 50 today! How time flies.... Dutchie Thanks again!

[uksearch]

You might like to check out the Tamside website (see note below).You will be able check how long some of your folks lived in the area through Citizens/Electoral Rolls and Trade Directories.

UK

[dutchie]

Thanks UK ...but where do I find it again?

[uksearch]

Thanks UK ...but where do I find it again?


On the Manchester Forum...one of the three "sticky messages".


UK

[dutchie]

Got hold of my grandfather Holland's death registration today from British Columbia and in it his dad's name is listed as Richard being born in Chester and his mom's name as Martha...born in Scotland...maiden name not known...
So I tried to do a search and get them on a census but no luck...hoping to get their son George listed with them and maybe siblings if there were any... I did do a marraige search for Richard and Martha and came up with the following: HOLLAND Richard Bolton 8c 430
Jackson Martha Ann Bolton 8c 430 ....now I understand Bolton is in Lancashire but you would probably be certain of that than I...again...can anyone check to see if indeed these two were married to each other or just a co-incidence....Thanks once again...

[Trish]

...Richard being born in Chester and his mom's name as Martha...born in Scotland...maiden name not known... ...I did do a marraige search for Richard and Martha and came up with the following: HOLLAND Richard Bolton 8c 430 Jackson Martha Ann Bolton 8c 430...The marriage registration you found for Richard and Martha is for a marriage that took place in 1875, isn't it? Does that fit in with your time frame? I would've thought you would be looking at a later marriage date.

There's a Richard and Amelia HOLLAND in the 1881 census of the right ages to have married in 1875. He's born in Cheshire, she in Scotland. Perhaps her full name is Amelia Martha or vice versa. Thin link, anyway, but this is the only married woman named HOLLAND and born in Scotland that I can spot.

Trish

[dutchie]

Thanks ...anything is possible with the Holland family as we have very little to go on...seem to hit a brick wall at every turn...I appreciate all the time you and UK seem to be taking with this...hopefully we will crack it with one good lead...in any event I will keep you informed...

[uksearch]

QUOTE FROM TRISH

There's a Richard and Amelia HOLLAND in the 1881 census of the right ages to have married in 1875. He's born in Cheshire, she in Scotland. Perhaps her full name is Amelia Martha or vice versa. Thin link, anyway, but this is the only married woman named HOLLAND and born in Scotland that I can spot.

Trish

Sadly she is Martha Ann JACKSON.

UK

[Trish]

Sadly she is Martha Ann JACKSON.

UKOh well. I tried... At any rate, I'm still wondering about the timing. Without going over all the guesses as to possible birthdates/lifespans again, it just strikes me that 1875 is early for Richard and Martha to have married... but maybe I've got it all wrong.

[uksearch]

You may well be correct Trish.I think that the next step is to check the birth of George Atkinson HOLLAND.If he was indeed born in Manchester you(Jenjen) can email MRO (see sticky) saying that you are thinking of purchasing the certificate,stating that the parents should be Richard and Martha.When you get the certificate it should show the mother's maiden name.

UK

[dutchie]

Thanks you two...I am going to spend some more time tomorrow trying to track down George Atkinson Holland....in a family where middle names didn't seem to be used until our generation born in Canada ..it is odd he has one and such a distintive one at that. I thought that getting the names of George's mom and dad would lead to a family but I guess it's not that simple...had heard that George might have had a brother Tom and that Dorothy and George might have had a daughter Muriel born in 1909 and died in 1916 of heart complications....Dorothy had numerous still births as she needed to deliver by ceasarian and the only success birth was in 1925 in Kelowna B.C. which was also the first ceasarian birth for that town/city....not sure what happened at the birth of Muriel....

[dutchie]

Found a George Holland...listed as getting married Sept 1901...Chorlton, Lancashire, volume 8c, page 1720 found in the Engalnd and Wales, civil registration Index..1837-1983....is this George and Dorothy(Lloyd)?

[Trish]

Found a George Holland...listed as getting married Sept 1901...Chorlton, Lancashire, volume 8c, page 1720 found in the Engalnd and Wales, civil registration Index..1837-1983....is this George and Dorothy(Lloyd)?Likely not. Dorothy is not listed among the possible candidates [Louisa KOLL and Elizabeth SMITH].

Trish

[Trish]

Here's one for George but no Dorothy...

Year / Quarter / Record Type / District / Country
1901 / March / Marriages / Leigh / Lancashire
GILLATT, Agnes
HOLLAND, George Atkinson
RICHARDS, Mary Emma
TYLDSLEY, Joseph Dixon

Source: Civil Registration Index for England and Wales: 1837-1983

[Trish]

Dutchie, pardon me if we have covered this already in earlier messages although I don't think we have... have you found George HOLLAND in the 1901 census?

I believe -- if I have the right one -- that he is listed as a boarder, along with his father and siblings. Father is listed as married but his wife isn't there. They are with a family named HURST -- a 35 year old widow and her children in Mossley, Lancashire -- at 5 [looks like...] Audley Street. Have you seen this? William is stoker at a cotton mill and George and Frederick are cotton spinners.

Trish

[Trish]

Following through on the 1901 marriage record for George Atkinson HOLLAND, I just did a quick search for Agnes GILLATT and Mary Emma RICHARDS. I didn't find either one of them but I did find something curious...

As I said, no Mary Emma but there is a Margaret RICHARDS, 21 years old, from Bangor, N. Wales working as a servant [a kitchen maid] at the home of a HOLLAND family. The head of the household is Walter, 58, a shipowner. Wife is Alice F. [born in India] and children are Catherine, 23, Willoughby, 22, Denton R. 21, Franklin 19, Hester G., 13 all born in Liverpool. The family is living in Wavertree which is in the ecclesiatical parish of Mossley Hill St. Matthew and St. James.

You mentioned that your father's mother was possibly a servant from Wales. Maybe there is something to this -- possibly George met Margaret RICHARDS [although you think her name was DAVIES] at the home of HOLLAND relatives and married her in 1901... it would have had to have been right after the census to make sense.

Bit of a leap...

[dutchie]

Hi Trish...went back through my files...the George Holland that I found in the 1901 was not the correct one when I got the background for the household for the census....
your theories could hold merit as it is so strange that absolutely no one can shed some light on the Holland side of the family...very odd considering the two grans were sisters and I have talked to my mom's youngest brother who is still living...
I would imagine if we could find Richard Holland, Georges's dad that some of the confusion could be cleared up...talked to my brother last week and he seems to think my dad Harold could have been born in 1901 or 1903 and that his real mother was still alive in 1961...overheard my mom and dad talking...
We have a world war one bugle here that George apparently brought back from the war..so I guess that means he served...
I did notice that when I was searching the birth section that a lot of the births for Lancashire for 1882 have not been transcribed yet...
I appreciate your on going research efforts...at times it seems fruitless but I exist so therefore there must be a trail somewhere...Thanks again....

[dutchie]

I think I have found the marraige listing of my great grandparents on the Lloyd side....

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Marriages Jun 1878
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Lloyd William Wigan 8c 147
Marsh Elizabeth Wigan 8c 147

Now it says I should verify that it is the correct one before I go ahead and purchase it....my question is how do I go about that from here? Thanks Diane

[Sandra]

[Cissie must be short for something... Catherine, Charlotte, Clara... do you know?]

OK I've come into this very late I know but my Gt Aunt Cissie was called Frances.

Sandra

[dutchie]

I have no idea what Cissie was short for...there already was/is a Clara in that family so that wouldn't be it...

[dutchie]

Hi one and all...long time no post....but have been searching and have found what could be my grandfather Holland's birth listing....different year but only by a year....
Was wondering if anyone could do a check and see who the parents are listed as....
In the BMD index for England and Wales he is listed as George Adkinson Holland born in the fourth quarter of 1883 , District:Congleton, volume 8A, page 271.
In the Cheshire BMD he is listed as George Atkinson Holland, Congleton, Cheshire East, CON/56/25 in 1883.
Still not having any luck with the Census search, nor a marraige to Dorothy.
Thanks for any help.

[uksearch]

These references are to the birth registration...you can only check the info by buying the certificate. It in no way indicates where he was baptised.

|cheers|

UK

[dutchie]

Thanks...will do.

[dutchie]

Received the birth certificate in the mail this morning from Cheshire and it sure looks promising ....the date is wrong by a day and a year but from other stuff that we have uncovered that is most probably right....so here is the information it contained and now I am wondering if anyone can find the family on any census given the new first name of the mom....and can anyone enlighten me on the names of place or buildings on the certificate...thanks a lot ....Dutchie

district of Congleton, counties of Chester and Stafford...

when and where born: 25 of August, 1883 Sideboth Ams(could be arms)Biddulph Staff....name: George Atkinson but the t could be a d the way it is written...Father: Richard Holland....Mother: Ann Holland formerly Pudmore...occupation: labourer at a colliery...signature, description and residence of the informant:Ann Holland, mother, Sideboth Ams or Arms...Biddulph...Registered 16 October, 1883
....

[Trish]

I think the following must be the same family:

Census: 1891: RG12, Folio 56, Page 18
Address: 66 Bottom [or could be "Botton"] New Rd, Atherton, Lancashire
-- Richard HOLLAND Head M 35 Coal Miner [born] Cheshire Congleton
-- Ann do wife M 40 [born] Staffords Burslem
-- John T. PODMORN [or "PODMORI"] Son S 17 Coal Miner Labourer [born] do Biddulph
-- Albert HOLLAND Son 13 do do [born] do Gillow hearth
-- Wm do Son 11 do do [born] do do
-- Mary do daur 10 Scholar [born] do Biddulph
-- Jane do daur 10 do [born] do do-- George HOLLAND son 7 Scholar [born] Staffordshire Hurstvale
-- Sarah A do daur 5 do [born] do do
-- Roger Shufflebottom Boarder S 25 Coal Carter [born] do Brownhedge
-- Joseph MASSEY do S 19 do [born] do Biddulph

This listing would indicate that Ann has a son from a previous marriage. Also, it appears that Mary and Jane are either twins or very close in age. I'll see if they show up in other censuses.

HTH,
Trish

[Trish]

They are in the 1881 census, living at Biddulph Common.

Census: 1881: RG11/3535 Folio 65 Page 10
Address: Biddulph Common, Biddulph, Staffordshire
-- John Atkinson PODMORE Head Widower 59 Farm of 10 Acres [born] Burslem Staffs
-- Richard HOLLANDS [sic] Son in law M 25 Coals Loader[born] Arclid Cheshire
-- Ann do Daur M 30 do Wife [born] Burslem Staffs
-- John Thomas PODMORE Son Um 7 Basterd [stroked out] Scholar [born] Biddulph do
-- William HOLLAND Grand do do 1 Scholar [born] do do
-- Mary do Grand Daur do 7 mo Twins [born] do do
-- Jane do Grand Daur do 7 mo " [born] do do
-- Albert do Grand Son do 4 [born] do do

So now you know where George's middle name comes from -- his maternal grandfather.

For some reason, the enumerator felt obligated to comment on other than rank, profession or occupation in the column reserved for that. But, in doing so, he does at least confirm that Mary and Jane are twins.

John Thomas PODMORE is clearly listed as "son" to John Atkinson PODMORE -- while the the other children have "Grand" written in after the fact in front of "Daur" or "Son". So whose son was John Thomas?

Regards,
Trish

[Trish]

1871...

Census: 1871: RG10/3702 Folio 34 Page 13
Address: Common East, Biddulph, Staffordshire
-- John PODMORE Head Mar 53 Labourer + Farmer of 3 Acres of Common Land Staffs Burslem
-- Harriet Do Wife Mar 55 [born] Do Tunstall

I'm not sure if the following is the right Ann...

[b]Census: 1871: RG10/2853 Folio 75 Page 10
Address: Wedgewood Place, Burslem, Staffordshire
-- John SMITH Head Mar 43 Cooper + Basketmaker [born] Burslem Staff
-- Susan " Wife Do 42 Domestic [born] Seck Staff
-- G Ewen BROOK " Son Unm 16 Cooper + Basket [born] " "
-- Ann PODMORE " [sic] Servant " 20 General Servant [born] Burslem "
-- William CLAY Labourer " 22 Farmer's Labourer [born] Rings Will Staff

Regards,
Trish

[Trish]

1861...

Census: 1861: RG9/1926 Folio 66 Page 11
Address: ?Fords Bank, Tunstall, Staffordshire
-- John PODMORE Head Mar 40 ?Poller [hard to read] [born] Stafford Burslem
-- Harriet do wife Mar 43 [born] do Tunstall
-- Thomas do son unm 12 ?Joiner [born] do do
-- Ann do daur 8 [born] do do
-- Mary Ann do Mother Wid 66 [born] Liverpool

Regards,
Trish

[Trish]

1851...

Census: 1851: HO107/2003 Folio 241 Page 1
Address: High St., Burslem, Staffordshire
-- John PODMORE Head Mar 34 Innkeeper [born] Burslem Staffe
-- Jane " Wife " 32 " [born] Stafford "
-- John " son U 3 [born] Hanley "
-- Thomas " " 2 [born] Bagnall "
-- Mary PODMORE Mother Widow 60 [born] Liverpool Lance
-- Ellen WESTON Serv Serv 28 Servant [born] Bagnall Staffe

I'm not sure how Jane becomes Harriet -- are they one and the same or two different women?

There is a marriage record for a John Atkinson PODMORE in the March quarter of 1839 in Stoke upon Trent. Possible brides include a Harriet CORNS. [Reference: Volume 17 Page 158]

Also, there is a marriage record for a John PODMORE in the June quarter of 1845 in Wolstanton. The only possible bride listed is a Jane DURBER. [Reference: Volume 17 Page 294]

Worth noting, as well: a death record for a John Adkinson [sic] PODMORE, age 64 in the June quarter of 1885 in Congleton. [Reference: Volume 8a Page 204]

Regards,
Trish

[dutchie]

Wow Trish.... alot to take in....fancy one birth registration leading to all of that....thanks a million for your help. I'll be passing this on to George's other granddaughter in British Columbia as she has been trying to unravel this for years....she recently sent for George's military records as it appear both George and my dad Harold lied on various things to get enlisted.....thanks again Dutchie

[dutchie]

Trish any luck tracing Richard back to 1871 etc or forward past 1891? Thanks Dutchie

[Trish]

Trish any luck tracing Richard back to 1871 etc or forward past 1891? Thanks DutchieI knew I was forgetting something...

If Richard HOLLAND was born about 1856 in Cheshire and was living in Biddulph by at least 1881, there is the following possible fit:

Census: 1871: RG10/3702 Folio 17 Page 26
Address: Gillow Heath [town], Biddulph [civil parish], Staffordshire
-- Adam CHADDOCK Head Mar 35 Forge Lab [born] Cheshire Astbury
-- Sarah SUTHERS Housekeeper Mar 34 [born] Staffordsh Biddulph
-- Richard HOLLAND Do's Son 16 Engine Stoker Forge [born] Cheshire Sandbach
-- Eve SUTHERS Do's Daur 5 [born] Staffordshire Biddulph
-- Jane Ann Do Do Do 6 mo [born] Do Do

Looks promising...

Trish

[Trish]

Same family in 1861...

Census: 1861: RG9/2610 Folio 129 Page 41
Address: Mill Green, Congleton, Cheshire
-- Richard SUTHERE Head Mar 52 Brick Maker Lanc Manchester
-- Sarah Wife 26 [born] Staff Biddulph
-- Richard HOLLAND Son 6 [born] Ches Astbury
-- Albert SUTHERE " 2 [born] Do Congleton

Richard is twice Sarah's age... If we hypothesize that Sarah may have been unmarried when her eldest son, Richard, was born and do a search in the 1851 census for Sarah HOLLAND, the following comes up:

[b]Census: 1851: HO107/2167 Folio 379 Page 12
Address: High St, North Ward [town], Coughton [civil parish], Cheshire
-- Peter BULLEN Head Mar 30 Brickmaker [born] Cheshire Swettenham
-- Mary BULLEN Wife Mar 30 [born] Devon Plymouth
-- Hannah BULLEN Daur 9 [born] Cheshire Congleton
-- Charlotte BULLEN Daur 6 [born] Do North Rode
-- Maria BULLEN Daur 3 [born] Do Congleton
-- Edwin BULLEN Son 5m [born] Do Do
-- Edward DRAKEFORD Visitor Unmar 25 Brickmaker [born] Lancash Liverpool
-- Richard BAXTER Visitor Unmar 29 Do [born] Cheshire Harlington
-- Sarah Ann HOLLAND Visitor Unmar 17 Silk Winder [born] Staffd Biddulph

HTH,
Trish

[Trish]

FYI... The 1851 census shows 48 people named HOLLAND born and/or living in Biddulph, Staffordshire and 7 people named HOLLAND born in Biddulph and living in Cheshire -- in Sutton, Hulme Walfield, Odd Rode and Coughton.

Census: 1901: RG13/3596 Folio 28 Page 47
Address: 2+4 Dawson St. Atherton, Lancashire
-- Richard HOLLAND Head M 47 Coal Miner Hewer [born] Cheshire Hartlett Heath
-- Ann " Wife M 50 [born] Staffs Burslem
-- William " Son S 21 " " [born] " Biddulph
-- Mary " Daur S 20 Machine Minder in Cotton Mill [born] " "
-- Jane " " S 20 " " " [born] " "
-- Sarah Ann " " S 16 " " " [born] " "

Trish

[Trish]

I think this must be Richard HOLLAND's mother, Sarah, married to Adam CHADDOCK/CHADWICK in 1881:

Census: 1881: RG11/2700 Folio 82 Page 35
Address: 13 Dunkirk Lane, Newcastle under Lyme, Staffordshire
-- Adam CHADWICK Head Mar 43 General Labourer [born] Rowpark Cheshire
-- Sarah " Wife " 48 [born] Biddulph Staffordshire
-- Eve " Dau 13 Scholar [born] " "
-- Jane Ann " Dau 10 " [born] " "
-- John " Son 8 " [born] " "
-- Alice " Dau 6 " [born] " "

Trish

[Trish]

1891 and 1901 CHADDOCKs/CHADWICKs...

Census: 1891: RG12/3685 Folio 62 Page 11
Address: 33 Elm Street, Leeds, Yorkshire
-- Adam CHADWICK Head M 54 Sanitary Labourer Staffordshire ?MowCop
-- Sarah Do Wife Mar 58 [born] Do Biddulph
-- John Do Son 19 Sanitary Labourer [born] Do Do

[b]Census: 1901: RG13/2621 Folio 107 Page 33
Address: 14 Cross Street, Biddulph, Staffordshire
-- Sarah Ann CHADDOCK Wife Wid 65 [born] Staffs Biddulph
-- John Lister " Son Single 30 Coal Miner Hewer [born] " "

Trish

[dutchie]

Thanks Trisha...do you think if I sent for the marraige certificate for Ann and Richard that it would list Richard's mom and dad on it? Are we now thinking Richard ..it is odd how Ann , Richard's wife seemed to have a son while she was a servant somewhere (or her dad was her son's father....) and that Richard seems to be a product of something similar and my dad Harold was rumoured to be a liason between George and a Servant somewhere (Wales was the place we were told.) I find in the census listing the birthplace changes but is all in the vicinity and everything else seems to jive. You have been a great resource...thanks a bunch and enjoy your day. Dutchie

[dutchie]

Got a document from my cousin in BC today that has the marriage of Dorothy Lloyd to George Holland listed as May 22, 1910. Now I am not sure if this is a legitimate date as it was on his call up as a Reservist in 1941 and he had lied about his birth year on that form by 7 years.... He had served with the 12th Battalion B.E.F. from 1914-1919...Dutchie

[dutchie]

Got confirmation today that the listing for those two as being married in 1876 is correct...
D3539/1/15
St. Lawrence, Biddulph
Entry 431
14 August 1876
Richard Holland/21/bach/Collier/Gillow Heath/no father entered
Ann Podmore/25/spin/------------/Gillow Heath/John Podmore/Labourer
Married after Banns by T. Harrison, Curate
witnesses Arthur Whitehurst, Jane Boon

This seems to confirm that Richard was born "out of wedlock"...and that mostly Sarah Ann Holland is the mom...going to try and find Richard Holland's birth registry and then can send for that and hopefully confirm...
Dutchie....looks like I have strayed from Ashton Under Lyne but the whole lot eventually ended up there....

[dutchie]

Don't think we have ever found George Holland on the 1901 census. The one we thought was him proved incorrect, now that we know his Dad's name is Richard...he doesn't show up with his family in the 1901 records. Dutchie

[denise4480]

Hi,

I am new to this site, but I noticed your wall connections, my family is the wall family of Droylsden, (where I still live) I have Two Charles wall in my family tree. One was born in 1888 and is my Grandads brother (my grandad was Robert Wall born 1895) my grandad had only One sister called Edith,
(I wonder if thats why your Grandfather named your mother Edith) but there were Nine brothers as below

William born 1880
Joseph 1882
Edith 1883
John 1886
Charles 1888
richard 1890
Harry 1893
Robert 1895
Leonard 1897
Fred 1900

The parents of the above were Richard Wall born 1858 in Darlaston, West Midlands & Elizabeth Chorlton.
I have census and birth, marriage certs plus other info going back to 1801.

The other Charles Wall was born in 1871 and is the brother of Richard Wall above.

Does any of this make sense?
Let me know and I will try to get anything relevant over to you.

Charles Wall married Janet Lloyd in 1920 at St Mary's Church in Droylsden (which is Still standing)

In Droylsden Cemetary in Grave P306 are the following
Charles Wall died 2/12/1961
Emma (Charles Wife?)born 1887 died 27/7/1974
Margaret Wall 1925-1942
Mary Wall 1925-1948

In Droylsden Cemetary in Grave S207 are the following
Charles Wall born 1871 died 1948
Sarah jane Jackson born 1872 died 1950

Best regards,
Denise Wall

[dutchie]

Hi Denise...I will look more closely tomorrow morning at the information I have compiled on my Wall family. Just looking quickly at what you have written... the marraige of Janet Lloyd to Charles Wall is my gran and grandad's marraige...married in 1920 and my mom Edith was born August 1920. I will look at the other dates and names I have and see what matches.

[dutchie]

Denise, my great grandfather was Charles Wall born in 1871 and married to a Sarah J...born in 1872( this from the 1901 census). At that time they had Charles A. (1895) , Herbert(1898), John H. (1892) and Joseph (1900).

In the 1881 census, the John Wall (1833) family lived at 64 Ezard Street in Openshaw. Listed with him are Charles(1871), John H. (1866) and Rachel Ann(1872) and a William (1862).

I am also fairly new at this and was just copying and pasting information when it looked like it was correct. Trying to follow the three families at the same time(my two grans were sisters...another story)...looks like you and I are related...by the way I have three brothers as well. My eldest brother was born in Manchester and came to Canada with my mom in 1948. She was a war bride. Take care and look forward to piecing more of this together with your input. Ps I do have a picture of the great grands so if we are related I could make a copy and send it off to you sometime..

[dutchie]

on a whim, I sent for the marriage certificate for the union of George Atkinson Holland and Mary Emma Richards...thought it would be 15 dollars well spent to try and break open the gutternaut of the Holland family. Well it comes back looking mighty promising as George's dad is listed as Richard (which he is) and a coal miner, also correct. George has lied about his age...they married on Feb10, 1901 and he is listed as 21 (actually 17) and Mary Emma Richards (dad Thomas also a coal miner) is listed as 18 when in fact she is around 15 (going by the 1891 census of her family.) Now all that being said, cannot find either of them in the 1901 census. George lived at the Richards home prior to the marriage...31 Robert St Atherton, Leigh. Can anyone help with the trail after that?
Thanks and all the best for 2007, Dutchie
Of course this still doesn't answer when George married my grandmother, Dorothy, if he really did before they came to Canada, supposedly in 1919. I am beginning to think my dad might be the son of Mary and George but who knows...so many deadends.

[Trish]

...cannot find either of them in the 1901 census. George lived at the Richards home prior to the marriage...31 Robert St Atherton, Leigh. Can anyone help with the trail after that?...Dutchie,

How about the following entry in the 1901 census?

Census: 1901: RG13/3595 Folio 58 Page 49
Address: 18 Hindsforth, Atherton, Lancashire
-- George A. HOLLAND Head M 17 Coal (Hewer) [born] NK
-- Mary E. Do Wife M 17 [born] Lancs Atherton

Note: George and Mary's surname has been transcribed as HOLLAN by Ancestry

Best wishes to you, too, for 2007.

HTH,
Trish

[dutchie]

I think you have them...Thanks..I will take a look.

[dutchie]

Well it sure looks like them...I am guessing the NK under birth for George is not known.
Now Trisha...this is a long shot but since Dorothy, who I understood is my grandmother and adopted my dad but my dad's father was really George...do you think Mary is the mother...do you think her and George had a baby in 1901 and that is why they got married so young (had lied on the marriage certificate) and I guess could that child be my father (his name was Harold)....what happened to Mary...etc etc...I understood my dad was born in 1907, 1908 or 1912 depending on the story(and again supposedly born in Pontypool, Wales). Oddly enough, my brother reminded me this past weekend that my dad had a tattoo on his arm of a lady with the name Mary under it...mere co-incidence or what.... oh what a tangled web they wove....

[dutchie]

I took the plunge last week and ordered a birth registration from Wales that I thought had a good chance of being for my father. Family lore had him born in Pontypool to a servant, my grandfather being the actual father. It came today. The birthdate of August 31 is correct....the year is 1908 ( we had heard, 07,08, 12 although my mom had said just before he died my dad mentioned he thought it was really 08 and his birth mother's last name was Davies). The mother on the certificate is a Beatrice Ellen Davies, Domestic Servant of risk( think it says risk...the copy is not so clear). No father listed. Her residence was Cocdypric House( I really am taking a stab in the dark with that spelling), Griffithstown near Newport....can anyone shed some light on the area or the workplace involved...would the at risk if it is really what it is, mean she was underage? Thanks for any help. Dutchie

[dutchie]

On further inspection and alot of searching on some Monmouthshire sites, I think it is of Usk not "of risk" on the certificate.

[DawnCollis]

Hi Dutchie,

I hope I can help because from the sound of it I'm your second cousin! My mother was Ivy Wall, the youngest of the Wall family. Charlie was one of her older brothers. The boys were John (known as Jack) Charlie, Joe & Herbert the girls Cissie (short for Sarah Jane) Clara and my mum Ivy. There were 3 children who didn't survive. Charlie's eldest daughter Edith was closer in age to my mum than most of her siblings (Ivy b 1909) and I think they were quite close at one time. My mum and aunt Clara went over to Canada to visit Edith & family in May-June 1996, I think they were staying in Ottowa or Montreal at the time. I still have a book about Canada brought back for me. I do remember the visit over to England by Edith and her family a couple of years before that. If you want to get in touch to learn about some more please feel able to.

[Jan1954]

Hello Dawn - welcome to Brit-Gen,

Dutchie has not been on the forum for a few years, although still a member.

If you click on Dutchie's user name, a drop-down menu will appear. One of the options is to send an email, which may speed up contact.

Please be mindful of posting details on the forum of potentially living people, which is not allowed. :smile5:

[Sallytaylor]

Hi all
I have just come across your posts re the wall family from Droylsden. I think my family have links to Leonard wall who was aged 14 in the 1911 census. Does anyone have any information regarding him e.g marriage or death record so I could confirm this.
Regards
Sally Taylor