Benson, Albert/George

[Al et al]

I am looking for kith and kin of Albert Benson (b.1874, Leominster), who married Mary Ann Reynolds. His marriage certificate says his father was George benson. However, Albert does not turn up on any census until 1901, when he is newly married and has 1 son.
I beleive he has a brother called Frederick and one called James.
maybe sisters: Fanny and Annie.
Many thanks, Alisan

[Mutley]

Alison, could you just confirm the census registration you have for 1901?

I can see an Albert b. 1874 in Leominster, married to a Mary Ann and living in Hope Under Dinmore but they have three children, Albert P, Gladys and Leonard.

[Mutley]

Also what is the occupation of George?

There is a George J Benson born about 1831 in Leominster he is married to Hannah and they have children, George James 1855, Thomas W 1858 and Hannah 1860. George senior is a Cordwainer.
TNA census of 1861 RG9/1831/89/6

Sadly the mother Hannah seems to die as there is a death registered in Leominster for a Hannah at about 38 years old in Dec 1867.

In 1871 Dad is with children George James (a bricklayers apprentice), Fanny age 8 and William age 13.
TNA census of 1871 RG10/2715/21/5

Could this be Albert's father and grandfather?

[Al et al]

You guys are wonderful!

Yes, the census you show for him and his family for 1901 is correct. My mistake in saying he has 1 child.

Albert's marriage certificate says his father was a cordwainer.

I have that George married to Hannah Boulds but can't tie in with hard evidence, other than his occupation. And George Jnr here a bricklayer's apprentice, rather than shoemaker.

I have this in the 1881 census:
James G. BENSON Head 50 Leominster, HRD Shoe Maker (b abt 1831)
Georgina BENSON Wife 50 Lewes, Sussex
Frederick BENSON Son 8 (b.1873) Leominster, Hereford Scholar

It is possible, if George married a Georgina (after Hannah died), that George J became called James G(eorge?), tho' one would presume the wife would be the one to use her 2nd name?
The son, Frederick, would have been born 1 year before Albert. I know he had a brother called Frederick from his newspaper obit.
Again, no hard evidence.

I did not want to mention these possibilities in the previous posting lest I bias you.

Thanks a mill, Alisan

[Mutley]

Free BMD has a marriage registered in Sep 1852 for George James Benson and Hannah Brewer Boulds at Leominster. 6a/807
You can order this certificate to find their father's names.

The children are also there.
George James in Sept 1854
Thomas William in June 1857 (probably the William in the 1871 census)
Hannah in June 1860
Fanny in Sept 1862
There is also an Elizabeth in March 1866 (before Hannah's death) She is not with Dad and siblings in 1871 so may have died or be with other family members.
One of these certificates would confirm Hannah's maiden name.

There are no more births registered in Leominster until 1893 a gap of nearly 30 years before the registration of Albert's chldren start.

[Mutley]

This does not help us find your Albert though :(

George Senior must have moved away from Leominster after the death of Hannah in 1867.
There is a birth registered for a
Frederick William Benson in March 1873 in W. Bromwich
but not for any of the others you mentioned, Albert, James, Fanny or Annie.

The only marriage I can see for the census you found is in Sep 1880 of James George Benson is to Georgina Smith and is in Liverpool.

I will have another look at the census for more clues. ;)

[Mutley]

In 1891 there are James G Benson a widower and a Shoemaker born in Leominster in about 1831 living as a boarder in Bootle. With him is Frederick Benson born about 1872 in Leominster, he is a labourer.
RG12/2973/87/34 (Crown Copyright. TNA)

Funnily enough, the wife in the household is Fanny Biggs, she just happens to have been born in Leominster in about 1863. Coincidence?

That seems to be Frederick sorted, looks like he is married to a Florence in 1901. But still no sign of Albert. :(

[Mutley]

There is a public tree on Ancestry with a George Benson, cordwainer married to a Hannah Gregg. They have children listed as George James II 1855, Thomas W 1858 - 1867, William 1858 - 1893, Hannah 1860 and Fanny 1864 all Leominster.

Still no mention of Albert.

[Al et al]

Thanks, Mutley - glad you don't have Dastardley alongside!

Your liverpool info coincides - and elaborates on - with what I got yesterday.
I did have a problem with two guys who seemed to be the same, though diff names!
George J Benson in 1891 is a lodger in liverpool and works as a Bill Poster
James J Benson in 1901 is a Bill Poster for Auctioneer.
They seem the same guy.

I guess the lack of birth records explains how Albert slipped the net - but not how he slipped the censuses! I am so sure he is Frederick's brother. But how can one be certain without some strand?!

I tried to look at the public tree you mentioned but Ancestry always wants one to to be a member before it allows access so I could not look. Am sure they would be related, though.

Thanks so much, al

[Al et al]

This does not help us find your Albert though :(

There is a birth registered for a
Frederick William Benson in March 1873 in W. Bromwich
but not for any of the others you mentioned, Albert, James, Fanny or Annie.


If George's George james did get called james, and his wife was annie, and his sister was fanny, they would be 1/2 siblings (annie = sibling-in-law!) ...
and frederick his full brother ... provided albert IS the son of George and georgina!

[Geoffers]

A possibility for you to consider.

From the original query we are looking for Albert BENSON whose dad was George and a shoemaker. Albert says he was born in Leominster.

No birth registered for Albert, no trace in census. Yet other births were registered and other children appear in census. Something isn't quite right.

Was Albert illegitimate and at his marriage mixed up father and grandfather?

Searching the 1881 census for any Alberts born 1874 +/- 1 year born in Leominster and living in Leominster brings back 5 hits.

4 are with married parents and it seems likely they can be eliminated.
The last one is for Albert DAVIES, aged 7 who is a boarder with Crump family in Yarpole, Herefordshire. See RG11/2607 f141 p21 (original census in care of TNA).

Now I've only searched using very narrow criteria; you may have to expand the search (in particular birth year range) to bring up other possibilities. But perhaps your chap grew up using another surname and only reverted to his biological dad's surname sometime around 1901? This may explain his absence from earlier records.

As I began, this is just a possibility, an idea - something to be proved, or disproved.

[Al et al]

Deer Grate Tuch Toipist,

My grandmother told me, many years ago when I asked her for details, that her Dad was adopted/fostered by a Mrs Crump. Then she died and I could not ask her to elaborate. No one else in the family (grandchildren) know anything.
I found that Mrs Crump and the Albert coincides with birth year. But I could not reconcile the Davies.
In 1891 Albert B Davies is still with the Crump's.........The D of Davies looks like a W but it's the same chap. The 'B' could perhaps stand for Benson?

If the George/James is Albert's father and Frederick his brother (and I know from Albert's obit he had a brother called Frederick), both Frederick and Albert have birth dates after the death of Albert's first wife, and before the 2nd marriage to Georgina whom he (probably met and) married in Liverpool.

If Gerogina is the mother of Albert (and Fred) from a previous marriage, how come he is not born and living in her hometown, Lewes?

He is a leominster boy .... so neither Hannah (who died before they were born) nor Georgina (whom George/James hadn't met yet) can be their mother.

There is a 3rd woman!! it seems the ONLY explanation.
Maybe he WAS illegitimate and his mother was a Davies?

Unless he was using a different surname before 1901 he MUST appear on one census at least. But he doesn't.

[Al et al]

Mutley,

(sorry about the duplication i tried to get rid of it by typing over it with this one I will repost now, but it did not work.)

You say: Funnily enough, the wife in the household is Fanny Biggs, she just happens to have been born in Leominster in about 1863. Coincidence?

Well, he had a daughter called Fanny, born Leominster Sept 1862.
Perhaps she was his incentive to go and look for work in Liverpool - somewhere guaranteed to live.

Al

[Geoffers]

Deer Grate Tuch Toipist,

Ah, I sea you went to the same scool of tiepin


My grandmother told me, many years ago when I asked her for details, that her Dad was adopted/fostered by a Mrs Crump.

Well that additional information certainly doesn't rule out the entry found; so this might be the right track?


In 1891 Albert B Davies is still with the Crump's.........The D of Davies looks like a W but it's the same chap. The 'B' could perhaps stand for Benson?

Again, quite possible.

Interstingly there is a birth registered in Sept 1872 for Albert James DAVIES in Leominster vol. 6a page 532 (do double check to make sure I have copied this correctly).

Is the middle name of James significant?

Did James George the shoemaker or George James the son, sow some wild oats?

If it was James George, this would fit in with the dad's recorded occupation and having a (half?) brother called Frederick.

If the George/James is Albert's father and Frederick his brother (and I know from Albert's obit he had a brother called Frederick), both Frederick and Albert have birth dates after the death of Albert's first wife, and before the 2nd marriage to Georgina whom he (probably met and) married in Liverpool.


If Georgina is the mother of Albert

A big leap that I wouldn't like to make at the moment. There are a lot of ifs, buts and maybes here and (being good at spending other peoples' money) I think the purchase of the birth certifiace for Albert James DAVIES mentioned above might be a reasonable expense. It should either help to show this is the wrong chap - or it will help you to identify the mother and hoepfully what happened to her.


There is a 3rd woman!! it seems the ONLY explanation.
Maybe he WAS illegitimate and his mother was a Davies?

This is what seems possible/probable to me.

IF I have identified the correct person (It seems possible that I have with your additional information about Mrs CRUMP) then as mentioned the birth certificate will help.

BUT - do have a look at census returns for other Alberts born in Leominster with an expanded age rnage of perhaps 1874 +/- 5 years and see if other possibilities turn up who can be elimated because parents were married, or because there is a corresponding death in the GRO index.


Unless he was using a different surname before 1901 he MUST appear on one census at least.

Not strictly accurate.

Some census returns have been damaged and are not all entries are indexed.

Some census enumerator books are missing.

People in institutions (asylums, workhouses, prisons) are often only recorded by initials - I did look for this find but could not an obvious match

Those serving abroad in the armed forces are often missing. The army abroad were not enumerated. I could not find a match for your chap in Royal Navy or Royal Marines records.

In conclusion, from the information available, I am hopeful that Albert DAVIES is your chap - I would suggest purchasing his birth certificate and also suggest checking parish registers in case some additional note is made in the register which identifies the father or connects Albert DAVIES with a BENSON father.

[Mutley]

I've returned to find you going great guns without me, well done folks.:)

But I've become a little confused.....

G/J-1831 as the cordwainer married to Hannah in 1852 (she dies 1867)
Children:
G/J-1854, (bricklayer's app. then shoe maker) Thomas/William 1857
Hannah 1860
Fanny 1862 (becomes wife of John Briggs?)

Then in the 1881 census we have G/J-1831 with Georgina and a possible marriage to Georgina Smith in 1880.


have this in the 1881 census:
James G. BENSON Head 50 Leominster, HRD Shoe Maker (b abt 1831)
Georgina BENSON Wife 50 Lewes, Sussex
Frederick BENSON Son 8 (b.1873) Leominster, Hereford Scholar


There is a birth for G/J-1854 (6a/445). He is in the 1861 with mum Hannah, Dad and sibs. He is in 1871 with Dad and sibs.
and then goes missing though we have

James as the nephew of Caroline Gregg in 1881

George as a lodger in 1891 with Caroline Gregg a widow and her two grandchildren Mary E 1883 and Albert E 1890 and he is the Bill Poster!
The Ancestry tree puts Hannah Gregg as his mother.

At the moment I still cannot sort out the father of Albert and Fred let alone whether Georgina is the mother or grandmother.

I have to go out now, I will try and get back to it soon.

I'd love to look at Fred's birth certificate. ;)

[Al et al]

Hmm, you have both given me stuff to digest.

I don't know where I got Albert's DOB from (July 29 1874) so I guess it is not cast in stone.

Caroline Gregg is a new name to me. How is she an aunt?

James is a popular name on the tree I am building and Albert gave one of his sons James as a middle name. But 'James' is no proof, I know.

I have drawn up a hypothetical tree for you to see what I have at the moment.

1 George James “James” BENSON (1831 Leominster – Dec 1896 Everton, Liverpool)
+ Hannah Brewer BOULDS (abt 1829 – Dec 1867 Leominster)
2 George James “James” BENSON (Sep 1854 Leominster – )
+ ANNIE (abt 1873 – )
3 William George BENSON (abt 1894 – )
+ HANNAH
3 James Frederick BENSON (abt 1896 – )
2 Thomas W BENSON (Jun 1857 Leominster – 1867)
2 Hannah BENSON (Jun 1860 Leominster – )
2 William BENSON (1858 Leominster – 1893)
2 Fanny BENSON (Sep 1862 Leominster – )
+ John BIGGS/Briggs?
2 Elizabeth BENSON (Mar 1866 Leominster – )
+ Mystery WOMAN
2 Frederick William BENSON (1873 Leominster – )
+ Florence STONE (1873 Yarpole – )
2 ?Albert BENSON/Davies (29 Jul 1894 Leominster – 29 Jun 1942)
+ Georgina SMITH (abt 1831 Lewes, Sussex – 1888 Everton, Liverpool)

[Al et al]

You say:

James as the nephew of Caroline Gregg in 1881
George as a lodger in 1891 with Caroline Gregg a widow and her two grandchildren Mary E 1883 and Albert E 1890 and he is the Bill Poster!
The Ancestry tree puts Hannah Gregg as his mother.

Is Hannah Gregg supposed to be sister of George, Aunt of James (1854)?
When you say Hannah Gregg as 'his mother', who is 'his'?

I am intrigued!

I also note that one of her grandchildren is called albert!

Alisan

[Al et al]

I am trying to edit and repost a correction on the previous posting but it keeps posting the mistake one. duh!

Is Hannah Gregg supposed to be sister of George, Aunt of James (1854)?
or maybe even his mother, hannah's, sister. George's daughter Fanny went to live in Liverpool so there may well have been some family there already.

[Mutley]

Hello Alison,
You cannot post a correction to a previous post unless you are quick, I think the edit time is about 5 minutes.

What I am trying to do, at the moment is list out all the census, entries, who is where and doing what. We seem to have three generations muddled up, or at least I do. ;)

Meanwhile, there is a service record in WWI for a William George born Leominster 1897 who says his father is George Benson. I am sure he is connected to one of them.

There is also a marriage of a Hannah Davies in Dec 1868 with a Samuel Goodere Crump on the same page. Worth looking into?

[Mutley]

I have to go out again soon, sorry but...

The William George born 1897, (with the service record) stating father as George, is living in Cranes Lane.
He seems to be the child of the James that is the Auctioneer's bill poster in 1891 and married to Annie because they also live in Cranes Lane.

[Mutley]

And in 1881 this same James born 1854/1855 in Leominster is the nephew of Caroline Gregg and is living in Cranes Lane.

[Geoffers]

There is also a marriage of a Hannah Davies in Dec 1868 with a Samuel Goodere Crump on the same page. Worth looking into?

On the same page there is an entry for Frances Elizabeth DAVIES.

It looks as though Samuel married her in 1868 - see the 1871 census for Wolverhampton RG10/2930 f4 p2 (reference to census held at TNA). This has Samuel G CRUMP aged 24 and Frances E Crump wife aged 26, both born Kingland, Herefordshire - also at the address is an unmarried visitor Jane C DAVIES.

[Mutley]

OK,
G/J-1831 appears born Leominster in 1831 age 30 as a Cordwainer in
1861 when he is with Hannah and children G/J 1855 and Thomas W 1858 and Hannah 1860,
1871 after Hannah's death, he is a Widower age 40, a Cordwainer
with G/J 1855, (he is a bricklayers's apprentice) Fanny 1862 and William 1857 in New Street.
1881 he is still born 1831 in Leominster age 50 but is now married to Georgina (in 1880) and is a Shoemaker and has Frederick, a son born in 1873, and they live in 136 Everton Road.
1891 he is a 60 year old Shoemaker living with married daughter Hannah Biggs. Frederick at the age of 19 is living with them in Blair Street, Bootle, Lancs.
1906 he dies.

G/J 1855 is he the son that goes on in
1881 to be James, the Masons labourer (Bricklayer) born 1855 in Leominster and the nephew of Caroline Gregg and living in Cranes Lane.

1891 as George born 1855 in Leominster, a lodger with Caroline Gregg a widow and her two grandchildren Mary E BREWER 1883 and Albert E BREWER 1890, he is a Bill Poster living in Cranes Lane.

1901 born 1855 in Leominster married to Annie with children William G and James F a Bill Poster living in Cranes Lane.

The Ancestry tree puts Hannah Gregg as the mother of G/J 1855.
You think that Hannah Brewer Boulds is the mother of G/J 1855

But I still cannot tie Albert Benson to Davies/Crump AND Brewer / Gregg.

[Mutley]

Do you have a Family History (Mormon, IGI) Branch near you?
They have the parish records for Leominster.

Elizabeth Benson born 1 March 1866 baptised 3 July 1866
parents George James and Hannah

Hannah Benson baptised 14 Mar 1861
parents George James and Hannah

There are mentions of Crump, Davi(e)s, Brewer, Gregg and Benson so it may be the only way to sort them out.

[Mutley]

What may be useful to know is

1911 Census
RG14. PN 15818 SN 26
(record held by TNA, Crown Copyright)
Upper Hill, Hope Under Dinmore, Leominster

Benson
Albert age 37 born 1874 in Leominster, a gardener
Mary Ann, married 17 years, age 37 born 1874 in Myrtha, Glamorgan
Leonard James age 11, born 1900
William Henry age 10, born 1901
Ada Mary age 8, born 1903
Marion Caroline age 7, born 1904
Eva Annie age 4, born 1907
Gerald Reuben age 1, born 1910

Children all born in Hope Under Dinmore

[Mutley]

There is also a marriage of a Hannah Davies in Dec 1868 with a Samuel Goodere Crump on the same page. Worth looking into?


On the same page there is an entry for Frances Elizabeth DAVIES.

It looks as though Samuel married her in 1868 - see the 1871 census for Wolverhampton RG10/2930 f4 p2 (reference to census held at TNA). This has Samuel G CRUMP aged 24 and Frances E Crump wife aged 26, both born Kingland, Herefordshire - also at the address is an unmarried visitor Jane C DAVIES.

Bummer!
That puts Hannah Davies with John Cropp.

Methinks it is bed time, I have a headache!! ;)

[Geoffers]

To summarise, there seems to be a connection between the DAVIES and CRUMP family through marriage.

A DAVIES child lived with a CRUMP family.

The DAVIES child's first name of Albert and approx year of birth and place of birth match up with Albert BENSON.

There is oral evidence of Albert BENSON living with a CRUMP family.

I think it probable that Albert was the son of James George (bn 1831), but it is possible that he was the son of George James (bn 1855) - so this still needs to be explored.

I think we've reached as far as we can with speculation and Al et al now needs to look at supporting evidence from the birth certificate for Albert James DAVIES to see if that helps to clarify things. Finding the name of the mother will be interesting. A second line of enquiry might be to look at the parish register for a baptism and possibly additional notes in the register.

[JAP1]

Re:
Birth: Albert James DAVIES, Sep qtr 1872 Leominster vol. 6a page 532

There's a baptism in the IGI:
Albert James DAVIS (sic), bap 24 Aug 1872, Bodenham (which is in the Leominster registration district), mother Hannah DAVIS

BUT ...
Death: Albert James DAVIES, age 0, Sep qtr 1872 Leominster vol 6a page 320

|sad1|

JAP

[JAP1]

The surname of the Albert B with William & Emma CRUMP in Yarpole in 1874 is very difficult to decipher - could be almost anything.

RG12/ Piece 2074/ Folio 121/ Page 15 (crown copyright)

[Al et al]

What may be useful to know is

1911 Census
RG14. PN 15818 SN 26
(record held by TNA, Crown Copyright)
Upper Hill, Hope Under Dinmore, Leominster

Benson
Albert age 37 born 1874 in Leominster, a gardener
Mary Ann, married 17 years, age 37 born 1874 in Myrtha, Glamorgan
Leonard James age 11, born 1900
William Henry age 10, born 1901
Ada Mary age 8, born 1903
Marion Caroline age 7, born 1904
Eva Annie age 4, born 1907
Gerald Reuben age 1, born 1910

Children all born in Hope Under Dinmore

Thank you. Ada Mary was my grandmother.

There seems to be an endless maze wherein we can lose ourselves. If Davies is not too clear on the form, then maybe it isn't Davies.
It seems pretty certain that GeorgeJames Snr or Jnr is Albert's Dad. According to marriage certif his Dad was a cordwainer and this applies only to George Jnr.

The 2 problems remain.
1. George Snr was between wives when Albert and Frederick were born.
2. There is no paperwork linking Albert to this family. If he had been farmed out as a youngster to a rellie then he may have temporarily used their surname until adulthood? In which case, it could be Albert Anybody on a census.

No, unfortunately, I do not live near anywhere with databases as I live in an isolated corner of namibia, Africa!

Will Albert remain elusive? I think you folk have been so thorough. I am not sure there is another avenue to try.
... Or is there always one more?!

As for:
The Ancestry tree puts Hannah Gregg as the mother of G/J 1855.
You think that Hannah Brewer Boulds is the mother of G/J 1855

I may well be wrong about the Boulds surname.
Free BMD has a marriage registered in Sep 1852 for George James Benson
and Hannah Brewer Boulds at Leominster. 6a/807

Would Caroline be using her maiden name, Gregg?
Her children are called Brewer.

Caroline's dead husband may have been called Brewer (hence the children's surname), and was brother to Hannah. Who married a Boulds then Benson?

Or am I clutching at straws?!

Alisan

[Mutley]

Thank you. Ada Mary was my grandmother.

You are welcome. :)


There seems to be an endless maze wherein we can lose ourselves. If Davies is not too clear on the form, then maybe it isn't Davies.
It seems pretty certain that GeorgeJames Snr or Jnr is Albert's Dad. According to marriage certif his Dad was a cordwainer and this applies only to George Jnr.

I thought George Snr born 1831 was the cordwainer?



The 2 problems remain.
1. George Snr was between wives when Albert and Frederick were born.
2. There is no paperwork linking Albert to this family. If he had been farmed out as a youngster to a rellie then he may have temporarily used their surname until adulthood? In which case, it could be Albert Anybody on a census.

Albert's marriage certificate and the name he used from 1901 link him to the family. There are not that many Bensons in Leominster and all seem to be related. You can send for Frederick's birth certificate, there is only one of him around.



No, unfortunately, I do not live near anywhere with databases as I live in an isolated corner of namibia, Africa!

Have you looked to see if the parish records for Leominster are for sale on a CD?



Will Albert remain elusive? I think you folk have been so thorough. I am not sure there is another avenue to try.
... Or is there always one more?!

There are more but unfortunately mostly not free and I think you are getting to the point where you will have to send for some certificates.



As for:
The Ancestry tree puts Hannah Gregg as the mother of G/J 1855.
You think that Hannah Brewer Boulds is the mother of G/J 1855

I may well be wrong about the Boulds surname.
Free BMD has a marriage registered in Sep 1852 for George James Benson
and Hannah Brewer Boulds at Leominster. 6a/807

Would Caroline be using her maiden name, Gregg?
Her children are called Brewer.

Caroline's dead husband may have been called Brewer (hence the children's surname), and was brother to Hannah. Who married a Boulds then Benson?

Or am I clutching at straws?!

Alisan

Obviously more work is needed on Caroline. Can you sign up for a trial on Ancestry and contact the person researching the tree. They have a photo of Hannah and may have additional information not on line.

[Mutley]

The 1871 Census has
TNA record RG10/2715/25/13 (crown copyright)
all born Leominster

Ann Bayliss head, a 77 year old widow, .
Caroline Gregg, mother, age 44 (1827)
Thomas Cornelias Brewer (transcribed Beaver) son, age 16, (1855)
Mary Elizabeth Gregg, daughter, age 11 months (1870)

Thomas Cornelius Brewer was registered born Sep 1854 at Leominster.

[JAP1]

In 1851 and 1861, Caroline is recorded as Caroline BAYLISS, unmarried.
And Thomas too is recorded as BAYLISS in 1861.

The IGI has Thomas's baptism as BREWER but no father:
Thomas Cornelius BREWER, bap 11 Oct 1854, Leominster Herefordshire, mother Caroline BREWER (no father recorded).

Mary Elizabeth is in the IGI:
Mary Elizabeth GREGG, b 10 Apr, bap 25 Aug 1870, Leominster Herefordshire, parents William GREGG & Caroline.

I haven't found a marriage for William GREGG and Caroline BAYLISS/BREWER.

JAP

[JAP1]

In the 1861 census, Hannah (thought to be Hannah Brewer BOULDS), wife of George J BENSON, has age as 30 and birthplace as Lewisham Kent.

Here is an interesting IGI entry (or am I making something of nothing):

Hannah BREWER, bap 2 Mar 1828, Saint Mary's, Lewisham Kent, parents Cornelius BREWER and Ann BOULD.

Proceeding on from this - and I might be drawing far too long a bow - I wonder what was the maiden (or any previous married) surname of Ann BAYLISS?

I guess you can see where I'm going ... or at least trying to go!! I hope it's leading somewhere other than over a precipice.

Might Ann have been (or been known as) BREWER and/or BOULD and/or BAYLISS?

Might Caroline have been (or been known as) BREWER and/or BAYLISS (and later GREGG).

Might Caroline have been a sister of Hannah Brewer BOULD (wife of George James BENSON the cordwainer) - which would explain why James/George is described as her nephew.

So might Caroline's father have been Cornelius BREWER - which would explain why her illegitimate son is named Thomas Cornelius BREWER.

Phew! I hope this is not too wild a hypothesis. Please feel free to tear it to bits.

JAP
PS: Of course, even if there's some substance in my wild hypothesis, it gets us no further with Albert ...

[JAP1]

St Mary's Lewisham Kent, Baptisms 1828
March 2nd
Hannah
(Parents)
Cornelius .... Brewer
and
Ann .... Bould
(Abode)
Workhouse
(Father's Occupation)
Porter

The inclusion of both surnames is unusual. It surely implies that the parents were not married.

Incidentally, there are a few possible Cornelius BREWERs in the IGI (all with fathers also Cornelius BREWER) - one bap 1791 in Tewkesbury Gloucestershire, one bap 1794 in Gosport Hampshire, and one bap 1802 Leominster (his parents Cornelius BREWER and Eleanor).

Another interesting census?
1841 census
HO107/ Piece 430/ Book 26/ Leominster Herefordshire/ ED 11/ Folio 20/ Page 11
Broad St, Leominster Herefordshire
Eleanor BREWER, 75, Eating House Keeper, Y
Ann BAYLISS, 40, Y
Caroline BAYLISS, 14, No

In all later censuses except 1871, Caroline's birthplace is given as London.

JAP

[JAP1]

. ...
There is a 3rd woman!! it seems the ONLY explanation.
Maybe he WAS illegitimate and his mother was a Davies?
...

Look at this!

Birth: Frederick Benson DAVIES, Mar qtr 1873, Leominster, Vol 6a, Page 564

That looks like a "must have" certificate (yes, it's easy spending other people's money!).

But wait a minute! Perhaps that money doesn't need to be spent.

From the IGI:
Frederick Benson DAVIES, b 6 Feb bap 2 May 1873, Leominster Herefordshire, parents James George BENSON & Sarah Ann DAVIES.

But of course no Albert ...

Alisan, if the birth date you have for Albert is not quite right, perhaps Sarah Ann died when she gave birth to Albert. There is a possibility:
Death: Sarah Anne DAVIS, age 38, Mar qtr 1874, Leominster, Vol 6a page 385

Perhaps a possible scenario for consideration is that GJ/JG kept 1yo Frederick with him but could not look after the newborn so Albert was fostered out to Mrs CRUMP. And in all the trauma, registration of Albert's birth was overlooked.

JAP

[JAP1]

PS: Perhaps a possibility for Sarah Ann(e) might be Sarah Ann DAVIES, age 35, wife of Henry Edwin DAVIES in the 1871 - an apparently childless couple who seem to have married in 1857, Sarah Ann possibly as HODGES (her page number is wrong in FreeBMD; I've submitted a correction).

[Al et al]

Look at this!

Birth: Frederick Benson DAVIES, Mar qtr 1873, Leominster, Vol 6a, Page 564

From the IGI:
Frederick Benson DAVIES, b 6 Feb bap 2 May 1873, Leominster Herefordshire, parents James George BENSON & Sarah Ann DAVIES.

But of course no Albert ...

JAP

It seems too coincidental to be coincidental, if you know what I mean.
I think you may have just hit the jackpot!
The input and effort of all of you are putting in to help me in solve this mystery of decades is awesome!
The above material on Gregg and Bayliss is also grand but we did need that missing link ... and we may well have it.

Poor albert looks like he slipped through the cracks!
I am sure if your concerted effort has not turned up a birth record for him, we won't find one. Whaddya think?
Alisan

[JAP1]

Hello again Alisan,

As no one else has commented, I will ...

It does seem that there is no birth registration or baptismal entry for Albert DAVIES, later BENSON.
I would never say never - but I certainly can't find it.

Incidentally, I think there is no doubt that the father of Frederick Benson DAVIES b/bap 1873 in Leominster is G/J BENSON b ca 1831, the Cordwainer/Shoemaker (NOT his son G/J reg 1854). Frederick BENSON b ca 1873 Leominster is quite specifically recorded as the son of G/J BENSON b ca 1831, Shoemaker, in the 1881 census. In 1891, Frederick is still with G/J 1831, the Shoemaker, though their relationship to each other is not stated.

On the basis of the baptismal record of Frederick Benson DAVIES, we might reasonably think (oh, if only we had absolutely certain proof!) that Albert was a full brother of Frederick sharing the same parents - G/J BENSON (b ca 1831, a Cordwainer/Shoemaker) & Sarah Ann DAVIES.

There is so much circumstantial evidence:
a) Albert DAVIES of the right age found independently on this thread living with the CRUMPs in 1881
b) fostering by the CRUMPs then confirmed by your family folklore
b) Albert DAVIES (but no Albert BENSON) in the 1881 and 1891 censuses
c) Albert BENSON suddenly turning up in 1901 (but no Albert DAVIES)
d) the marriage cert of Albert BENSON listing his father as George BENSON, Cordwainer.

So, if a birth/baptism record truly can't be found for Albert, if I were you I would be getting the birth cert for Frederick Benson DAVIES in order to find out more about Sarah Ann DAVIES who is so very probably your direct ancestor.

Incidentally, the more I think about it, the more convinced I am of my earlier hypothesis.

That is, that Caroline BREWER/BAYLISS/GREGG b some time between 1823 and 1827 in London (from censuses) and Hannah BREWER/BOULDS/BENSON b ca 1828 in Lewisham Kent (from census and baptism) are sisters - children of Cornelius BREWER (probably the Cornelius b Leominster, son of Cornelius BREWER & Eleanor) & Ann BOULD who were not a married couple. And that Ann BOULD is the same person as Ann BAYLISS (though I can't find the BAYLISS connexion).

And that G/J BENSON b ca 1831, Cordwainer/Shoemaker married Hannah Brewer BOULDS (see previous para) and that G/J & Hannah had living children as follows:
* G/J BENSON - reg Sep 1854 who is with his parents in 1861, with his widowed father in 1871, and with his Aunt Caroline GREGG in 1881 & 1891 and who appears as a Bricklayer's Apprentice in 1871, a Mason Lab in 1881, and a Bill Poster in 1891 and 1901.
(Incidentally, Aunt Caroline GREGG has two BREWER grandchildren with her in 1891 - presumably children of her illegitimate son Thomas Cornelius BAYLISS/BREWER though I haven't found that connexion yet).
* Thomas William (later William) BENSON - reg June 1857
* Hannah (later Annie) BENSON - reg June 1860
* Fanny BENSON (married BIGGS) - reg Sept 1862

The wife Hannah died in 1867.

Then G/J 1831, the Cordwainer/Shoemaker, subsequently had two children with Sarah Ann DAVIES (to whom he was not married):
* Frederick Benson DAVIES (later BENSON) reg and bap 1873
* Albert DAVIES (later BENSON) ca 1874, reg/baptism unfortunately not found.

Then G/J 1831 subsequently married Georgina SMITH in 1880 but they had no children.

A couple of things which might be useful to post if you can locate them and are happy to do so.

1. Albert BENSON's obituary.
2. Albert BENSON's death certificate details (apart from cause of death) especially if it has his birth date.

Regards,

JAP
PS: Looking at a current map, they all seemed to have lived in the same area of Leominster - Broad St, New St, Cranes Lane ...

[Al et al]

Hi JAP

Very comprehensive. I couldn't have done it better myself!

I do have Albert's obit from a newspaper. And his marriage certificate and his death date - but no death certificate.

As I think I mentioned earlier, the obit says he had a brother Frederick, a grandson says his dad had an Uncle Jim. My grandmother says there was a brother, Frederick, and half-sisters, Annie and Fanny. So, with Hannah being known as Annie, this all ties in perfectly.

I had not thought to see if Albert Davies AND Albert Benson appeared in 1901. Well done for closing that avenue.

I really think that a mystery has been partially solved, providing a stepping stone to the next level, namely Frederick's birth certificate.

Heartfelt thanks, Alisan

[JAP1]

I should just say that there is an Albert DAVIES b Leominster in the 1901 census; he is in Kington Herefordshire with wife and children. This other Albert DAVIES was born ca 1870 and is an Assurance Agent.

I believe this other Albert DAVIES is the Albert DAVIES whose birth was registered Mar qtr 1869, Leominster
And who, age 2, is with parents George & Mary in Leominster in 1871.
And is still with them aged 12 in 1881. I don't see him in 1891 (by which time his mother is widowed).

I do wish you could trace where you got that birthdate for Albert BENSON of 19 July 1874. Could it possibly have been a mis-reading of 19 Jany 1874? This would then fit with that likely death of Sarah Ann DAVIES in the Mar qtr 1874.

Regards,

JAP

[Al et al]

Thanks, folks. I was offline for a while but we now back in cyberspace!

I am working on his DOB - unfortunately, I only learnt the importance of keeping a record of sources rather late in the piece.

Alisan

[Al et al]

I have been away for a while. For those of you still interested:
George James Benson b. 1831 married 3x.

1. Hannah Brewer Boulds (or Gregg - bit confused here) = George, Thomas, Hannah, William, Fanny, Elizabeth.

2. Sarah Ann Davies (no m certificate found) = Frederick, Albert (no birth certificate)
Sarah Ann dies just after Albert is born and it seems he is fostered out to Crumps.
And in all the trauma, registration of Albert’s birth was overlooked.Sarah Ann(e) might be Sarah Ann DAVIES, age 35, wife of Henry Edwin DAVIES in the 1871 - an apparently childless couple who seem to have married in 1857, Sarah Ann possibly as HODGES.

3. Georgina Smith - step-mother to Frederick. m. in Liverpool.
1881 census:James G. BENSON Head 50 Leominster, HRD Shoe Maker (b abt 1831)Georgina BENSON Wife 50 Lewes, Sussex Frederick BENSON Son 8 (b.1873) Leominster, Hereford Scholar