parish registers or record office ?

[TerryK]

Help needed please.
I have found a christening for a William John Walton Moffet, 19th May 1839. on the family history site. I have been to the R.O. today to check for the birth date. Checking back to July 1837 there was no entry so I assume he was born before registration began.
Is the christening date from the parish registers and will I be able to obtain a copy ?
Regards
Terry

[Guy Etchells]

Yes, if you check the Batch number (C009222) this shows that it is part of a controlled extraction. This means, in this case, the source was a parish register, or more accurately a Bishop's Transcript of the Parish Register for Manfield, Yorkshire; a couple of miles south west of Darlington.
You could either order the film number 0207557 through your local LDS Family History Centre or Visit the North Yorkshire County Record Office at Northallerton and view the film/fiche of the original register there.
Be aware that the baptism register may even contain extra details such as the birth date, both parents names, occupations etc.
Cheers
Guy

[TerryK]

Thanks Guy,
Thats a great help. I,m in your debt.

Regards
Terry

[Colin Moretti]

Hello Terry

quote "Checking back to July 1837 there was no entry so I assume he was born before registration began." unquote

Not necessarily. In the early years of civil registration births in particular are often missing. It was only from 1874 that it was the responsibility of a parent to report the birth, prior to that the registrar had to search them out. Apparently it is estimated that up to about 15% of births were not recorded as a consequence.

Colin

[TerryK]

Thanks Colin,
Every little helps.
Regards
Terry

[BeeE586]

To Terry K

Be aware also of multiple baptisms where anything upto five siblings may be baptized at the same time. You may find a whole family, and if you are very lucky the Clerk will record the date of birth as well.

My first venture into a Parish Register was that for DBY Staveley. I was very green and remarked on the great number of multiple births - triplets, quads., even quins. Then it was pointed out that these were multiple BAPTISMS, not births and I felt a right idiot !!

Good luck with the search -- Eileen

[TerryK]

Thanks Eileen,
Can`t stop chuckling about that, sounds more like one of my tricks !
Regards
Terry ( I suppose I should use Terence, the lady at Durham R.O. keeps calling me miss )

[Sharon Medley]

I'm a novice to genealogy and went on the LDS web site looking for my GGgrandfather, I found him and two brothers and one sister.Three of them were Christened on the same day even though their births ranged from 1846 to 1855.The LDS site gives the father's full name but only the mother's first name.They were Christened at St. Thomas, Stepney, London England. How do I go about getting a copy of the Christening and what are the chances that the mother's maiden name will be on it?
Thank you.
Sharon Medley
P.S. I live in the USA, will that pose a problem?

[Peter Goodey]

"How do I go about getting a copy of the Christening"

I wouldn't bother if I were you.

"what are the chances that the mother's maiden name will be on it?"

Zero.

What you need to do is to order the birth certificate for one, or indeed all, of the children. This will give you exact dates of birth, address, father's occupation and mother's maiden name.

[G.V.Ford]

Regarding multiple baptisms, presumably they were intentionally saved up, to save cost for instance, but what would have happened had the last child not been born? Does anyone know of any research undertaken on this? One wonders what proportion of the population was never baptised. I have come across multiple baptisms in my own family in the 1700s when having a baptismal parish was rather important.

Regards
Geoff

[Sharon Medley]

Thank you Peter.
Since I don't know where the children were born how do I go about getting a birth certificate?
Sharon

[Guy Etchells]

"How do I go about getting a copy of the Christening"

I wouldn't bother if I were you.

"what are the chances that the mother's maiden name will be on it?"

Zero.

What you need to do is to order the birth certificate for one, or indeed all, of the children. This will give you exact dates of birth, address, father's occupation and mother's maiden name.

Your answers surprise me Peter, in many of the parish registers I have checked (for 1846-1888) the both the father’s full name & occupation and the mother’s full names are often shown in addition many baptism registers show the exact date of birth.
Parish registers are always worth checking as depending on the vicar etc. they may contain a wealth of information.
Cheers
Guy

[AnnB]

Regarding multiple baptisms, presumably they were intentionally saved up, to save cost for instance, but what would have happened had the last child not been born?
Not necessarily. It was often the case that a couple had not had their existing offspring baptised, moved to a new parish, and the Vicar was a stickler for having everyone baptised. So the parents would have all their children 'done' on the same day ;) Any other children that came along were then baptised - unless the couple moved again........
Best wishes
Ann

[Mythology]

In Stepney, it is also highly likely that they were converts - East London was full of nonconformist chapels.

Half the rellies whose baptisms you can't find in that area you probably never will because they're in some lost nonconformist register, and the other half whose baptisms you can't find you probably never will either because they never saw the inside of a church until the day they got married - assuming that they actually bothered with a real marriage rather than just putting their partner as "wife" on the census.

[Patrisia]

On the subject of 'batch' baptisms - while transcribing Smalley PRs, I found 50+ baptisms for 9 July 1837, with no explanation as yet.
There are other earlier examples as well, though not quite such large numbers, where the birth date has been recorded too.

So I would agree with Guy, if at all possible get the LDS film and search through. Though having said that, if the birth date has been included, the LDS transcription does usually note that too.

Good luck

[BeeE586]

It cannot be stressed too strongly that original Parish Registers are ALWAYS worth looking at for the wealth of information they may contain. Thirty years ago when I began the quest for my roots it was almost all there was. I have found marriage entries that give not only names of the couples' parents, but grandparents also; pre 1837 burials with cause of death, and remarks by the incumbent frequently add to one's knowledge of the area. For example, the amount of snow that fell in January, or rain in February, or the drought in July; failure of a particular crop, disease in cattle and so on. At the baptism of a third illegitimate child was added 'A lewd and sinful woman' - no remark about the men of course ! A woman was noted at her burial as 'A good getter-up of fine linen' - was she the village washerwoman ? A man was noted as 'An aged bachelor, kind and generous in all his dealings' - wouldn't you be pleased to read this if he were of your family ?

Often details of charities are recorded, interesting wills, happenings in the parish, collections for briefs or church ales, harvest celebrations, walking the bounds and who took part, etc. etc.
When the registers were filmed or fiched often Settlement Examinations, Bastardy investigations, Churchwardens' and Overseers' Accounts, some Census returns for 1821 and 1831 were filmed at the same time - all adding to our knowledge.

How can such a vital source of information be ignored or dismissed ?

And I could mention Manor Court Rolls where they exist - recording inheritance, marriage contracts, land transfer naming actual fields and furlongs, to say nothing of the day to day living of the population and the rules by which they lived.

And Marriage Licences and Banns Books and I will now get down from my hobby horse.

Eileen

[Peter Goodey]

"Your answers surprise me Peter"

The reason I wouldn't bother with the baptism register if I were in the questioner's position is beacuse the civil registration documents will be guaranteed (within reason) to provide the information she seeks and may will be easier and quicker for her to obtain.

I've only very rarely found any useful additional information in post-1837 C of E baptism registers which was not shown in the corresponding birth certificate.

I think in general I would always recommend novices to stick to civil registration where available. Later on she may wish to extend her research into areas where recourse to post-1837 church registers might be needed but quite frankly I think it's early days for her.

Of course it may well be that these particular births were not actually registered - not uncommon in that period - in which case the parish registers will be the only source available to her.

There are other extenuating circumstances such as particular ease of access to PRs and a particular wish to avoid the expense of certificates but the questioner didn't indicate that either of these was an issue.

[BeeE586]

The ideal is, of course, that EVERY possible source of information should be studied, be it register, census, general registration or whatever - one source will complement and possibly verify another. Obtaining a Birth Certificate gives just the birth of one child, a register may give other siblings - useful if needed to confirm a Census entry - and the baptism of the oldest child could give an indication of a marriage date if this is not known. My advice to any newcomer would be to look at all available information before coming to any conclusions.

Eileen

[Peter Goodey]

"My advice to any newcomer would be to look at all available information before coming to any conclusions."

And my advice would be based on the reality of the learning curve.

Let her get some real research under under her belt - something she's done for herself and quite possibly a specific bit of research that nobody else in the world has ever done. Then, with the help of available introductory guides,she'll be ready to branch out.

And rather than introduce side issues that Sharon never raised, let's stick to the question. Sharon has found a specific family in the IGI. We must assume that she knows from other sources that this is the "right" family. If she wasn't sure, she would have said so. She wants to know the mother's maiden name. The most appropriate thing to do is what I suggested - obtain a birth certificate (all of them, if she wants). I've already mentioned what to do if the births weren't registered.


By the way, I'm still searching my data for an example of a post-1837 C of E baptism register showing the mother's maiden name and haven't yet found a single example. Perhaps I will in due course.

[Peter Goodey]

"Since I don't know where the children were born how do I go about getting a birth certificate?"

Sharon

I apologise for the digression.

One approach which may be the most convenient for you is to try these sites -

First of all go here:

http://www.fhsc.org.uk/genuki/REG/

Use this to work out the Registration District for your people. It looks to me as if it's Stepney (nice and simple - it doesn't always work out like that).

Then go here-
http://freebmd.rootsweb.com/

This is not yet complete and if you can't find what you want, try here -

http://www.1837online.com/

With luck you will now have a reference number to a birth certificate - not the actual information that's on the certificate.

Both sites have instructions on how to use them and what to do in order to get a certificate using the reference number(s) you've just found.

Good luck.

[BeeE586]

Peter - I agree with every word IF, but only if, you are sure you have the right family. A Birth Certificate will give the mother's maiden name, true, and is a starting point, but a register may yield the names of other siblings as I said without the additional expense of sending for certificates for other children.

Perhaps I did introduce extraneous matter in a previous post, but I did not intend to confuse, merely to stress yet again the value of registers. At the first Family History class I attended I was given two pieces of advice 1) work whenever possible from original sources and 2) try to obtain information from two sources, one to verify the other. I have alway found this to be a good working policy.

However, there are few hard and fast rules, only suggestions which may or may not apply - each case must be considered on its own merits and there is more than one path to follow.

Eileen

PS Don't be cross with me - today is my birthday !!

[Guy Etchells]

By the way, I'm still searching my data for an example of a post-1837 C of E baptism register showing the mother's maiden name and haven't yet found a single example. Perhaps I will in due course.

Take a look at my transcripts on
http://freepages.history.rootsweb.com/~framland/par/Botbap7.htm
scrool down past 1846 or look at
http://freepages.history.rootsweb.com/~framland/par/Botbap8.htm
The maiden names in this register carry on until around 1888 also included are birth dates and even some death dates for infants in the margin of the baptism register in 1882.

There is a stark reminder of war in the burial register for 1942 as one scrolls through the ages 73 years, 66, 71, 65, 23, 21, 21, 60, 97, 38, 21.
Almost without exception those being buried in their 20s came from RAF Bottesford the local airfield.
Cheers
Guy

[Peter Goodey]

"The maiden names in this register carry on until around 1888 "

Fine. I knew there would be an example somewhere.

And those portions of Bottesford which are on the IGI also faithfully show the mother's maiden name, as one would expect or. at least, hope.

Perhaps a little wager might be in order? A tenner says that the baptism register of St Thomas, Stepney for 1846 to 1855 will NOT show the maiden name of the mother in question. Sharon will have to tell us the names.

Loser pays a tenner to Rod Neep's favourite charity (if he agrees to adjudicate and doesn't ban us for online gambling).

Are you up for it, Guy?

[Guy Etchells]

Nope I don't gamble.
Cheers
Guy

[Clive Blackaby]

"How do I go about getting a copy of the Christening"

I wouldn't bother if I were you.

"what are the chances that the mother's maiden name will be on it?"

Zero.

What you need to do is to order the birth certificate for one, or indeed all, of the children. This will give you exact dates of birth, address, father's occupation and mother's maiden name.A point worth noting.
Whilst it is certainly true that very few C of E registers have this information, if you have a non-conformist baptism prepare yourself for a possible treat!
I have seen entries of baptisms which give not just the mother's maiden name, but the names of all four grandparents.
In some cases each family in the congregation has a page to itself, so it is as good as getting your hands on a family bible.

And even for C of E records, the incumbent will sometimes add in a piece of information which seemed important to him at the time: e.g. that the child was sickly and baptised at home, sometimes with a second date when the child was brought to church.

Civil registration records if you can find them (and the original query related to one which is apparently missing) are fine for getting the cold facts. The PRs often fill in the interesting details about a real person

[Peter Goodey]

"the incumbent will sometimes add in a piece of information which seemed important to him at the time"

There's no disputing that.

Here's a burial entry -

"1841 12 May Ann Gill (Hazard) aged 26 (Hazard is the proper name; Gill that which her husband goes by)"

An unnecessarily sour and mean-minded comment but extremely useful genealogically!

I particularly like the bits that are crossed out and changed and which don't necessarily get reflected in transcriptions. They can sometimes open new avenues for research. Unfortunately it usually just means the scribe made a mistake!

[Peter Goodey]

"I don't gamble"


Noted.

[Sharon Medley]

Thank you everybody (even though my mind is all "boggeled). At the moment the money is not a concern (cheaper than a plane ticket to England) I will try both sources mentioned. The Family I'm looking for is:
John Gates...wife Eliza
children:George Gates b. 31 Dec 1842 baptised 16 June 1857
Frederick Gates b. 20 July 1846 baptised 07 Aug. 1859
Thomas Gates b. 20 April 1848 baptised 07 Aug. 1859
Harriet Elizth. Gates b. 04 June 1855 baptised 07 Aug. 1859

all @ St. Thomas, Stepney
I will see if the LDS library has the film record to see if it has more data, if it does maybe I'll have more information to order the certificates.
Again THANK YOU ALL

[Sharon Medley]

Okay you wonderful people. Just got back from the LDS library and looked at the film regarding the baptisms. Did not have any more information than what I found on their web site. Where do I go on line to order a copy of the Curch record from St. Thomas Church is Stepney?

[Fulhamster]

Hiya Sharon,
You may well like to visit the East London Family History Society site URL:
http://www.eolfhs.org.uk/

[Peter Goodey]

Sharon


I'm not clear what it is you say you've just looked at.

If you're asking how to get hold of the St Thomas baptism register through the Mormons, you can look at the Family History Library Catalog on the mormon site, it looks to me as if you have to ask for FHL BRITISH Film 597931 but please check this for yourself.
You already know my forecast that you won't find the mother's maiden name on that film, but at least it won't cost you too much and I will be interested to hear what you find. What you might find which might be useful is an address. This could help you find the family in the 1851 or 1861 census which might have to be the next thing to try if we find that the births weren't registered (I've had a quick look but didn't spot any obviousevidence that they were)

[Sharon Medley]

Peter,

I had gone into the LDS IGI individual records and found the Gates children, on the bottom of the page they had the source information so I went to their library and found the print out call number. I went and found the film and viewed it. Like I said the only information on it was what was on the IGI. I do see that 0597931 is listed on the bottom of of the print out showing it as the source call #. I will go back and check and see if they have that film or can borrow it from Salt Lake City. It appears that it's in batch #06788-1. I've ordered a cd of the British 1851 census, hoping that I can narrow down where the family lived (hope that I have not wasted my $50). For a couple of years I've spent most of my time working on my Canadian and US family, this is my first attempt at England and do not know how to navigate to find the information that I need. Next will be Ireland.
I am really appreciative of all the help and suggestions that your great people have given me. Hope that I don't become too much of a pest but I get such an great feeling when I break through a "brick wall".
Sharon

[Peter Goodey]

Sharon

I think you'll find that you're intended to click on the "0597931" which then takes you to a screen showing "Parish registers of St Thomas...". Click on that and you'll get to the details of the film title. Click on the "View Film Notes" button and you'll see a list of film numbers. Make a note of the one you want (which I think is FHL BRITISH Film 597931 and order that from your local FHC.

In this case the Film number and Call number are similar. This need not necessarily be the case if you wanted to look at items which aren't on the IGI.

Note that this film also includes some marriages which I guess you'll want to look at while you've got the film.

St Thomas was a new church and if they married before 1840, the marriage would certainly have been elsewhere.

Also bear in mind that the realities of mid 19th century London were such that rather fewer working class couples bothered with the formalities of legal marriage than some people imagine.

Don't forget, if you have difficulty with the old handwriting, get a photocopy of the entry and let us have a look.

Since you've already spent the money, I'd better not mention that you could have ordered the census film through the mormons ;) .

[Sharon Medley]

Thank you Peter. I had printed out that information before I went to the library, I asked the people at the help desk how I could view the records and they directed me to the print out call # film. When I go back I will check for the 0597931 film on my own now that I know where they are located.
Regarding paying for the British census 1851 census I'm hoping that it will have all the districts. If the British census is anything like the Canadian it's next to impossible to find anyone unless you know EXACTLY what dist. and township that they live in which would take me millions of hours. I'm hoping that the CD will let me do that at my own pace at home in the wee small hours of the morning. I will check out the marrige film while I'm at the library , it looks like it's on FHL BRITISH Film 1238677 Item 14. Just hope that they were married 1840 or later. I did find in my search that there are two marriages for a John Gates, one in 1840 and one in 1842 to a female with the first name of Elizabeth and three prior to 1840. (think I found them on Kindred Connections, I need to take better notes as to where I found things).
Thank you again for your guidance.
Sharon

[Sharon Medley]

Peter,
Just thought that I would let you know that I received the CD yesterday. I'm returning it today for a refund...none of my family was on there. I'll have to check at the library today since I'll be there looking for "0597931". ( I was hoping to take a short cut with the 1851 census)
Sharon

[Peter Goodey]

Sharon

My reading of the catalog(ue) is that Baptisms, 1840-1875 and Marriages, 1840-1850 are on FHL BRITISH Film 597931.

Film 1238677 which you mentioned seems to be only a printout of what you can already see on the IGI. In other words no help.

I hadn't realised the marriages were on the IGI, so if they're not there, you probably won't need to spend much time on the marriages - but you had better check.

[Sharon Medley]

Peter, need your help. I went to the Library and checked out the film for the Baptisms. No luck on Eliza's maiden name but they have an address which I'm having trouble deciphering. Hope that you or someone who is familiar with towns can help. abode: 69 ...looks like " W " or " H "ell?ly. The town is just as bad (for me anyway) can't tell if it's an "F" or "T" h?t.
Sharon

[Peter Goodey]

"No luck on Eliza's maiden name"

So if someone had taken me up on that little wager, their pocket would be £10 lighter.;)

Could the address have been Wellesley St.? But then there were hundreds of streets in Stepney!

It's usually best to get a photocopy of anything doubtful, so you could let us all have a look.

[Mythology]

"looks like " W " or " H "ell?ly. The town is just as bad (for me anyway) can't tell if it's an "F" or "T" h?t."

Peter's guess seems a likely one. The ending is far more likely to be part of the street address than a town name, which would normally only be shown if it was a different parish.

In Stepney they did have a habit of putting the hamlet in if it wasn't what I'd call "proper Stepney", so you get things like "Ratcliff" and "M.E.O.T.", their standard abbreviation for Mile End Old Town which leaves the inexperienced flummoxed, but I can't think of any of those that would make sense, so "Street" is probably the answer.

[Sharon Medley]

Thanks guys, I have a photo copy, how do I get it to you so that you can take a look?
Sharon

[Peter Goodey]

1. Scan it

2. Put it on a website or

3. If you haven't got any webspace, you could try a photo sharing site or

4. Attach it to a message to this forum (there's plenty of advice elsewhere on this site about how to do that).

5. If you're stuck on 2, 3 or 4, you could email it to me and I'll arrange for the world to see it.

[Sharon Medley]

Well guys, here it is I hope.
Sharon

[Sharon Medley]

I guess it did not make it.
Sharon

[Peter Goodey]

You're being very naughty, Sharon - getting us all interested and holding us in suspense ;)

Seriously, I'm not too good on attachments. If you email it to me (the email in my profile works but note the underscores in the address), I'll make it visible.

[Peter Goodey]

Here's Sharon's image. But I don't think there'll be much debate about it. To my mind, it's definitely 69 Wellesley Street. And the father's occupation is Traveller.


http://www.inertia.demon.co.uk/gen/agatesBaptism1859.jpg

[Peter Goodey]

And I've just noticed the other Gates baptism in the same batch.

Could that be a clue? Were William and John brothers?

[Sharon Medley]

Peter, You did a great job, THANK YOU!!!! Do you know where that street is? Maybe I'll know where to look in the 1861 census if he hasn't moved since 1859.
Sharon

[Sharon Medley]

Peter, I'm sure that they must be related, but since John has been my "brick wall" I can't say.
Sharon

[Peter Goodey]

The street appears to still exist:

http://www.streetmap.co.uk/newmap.srf?x=535604&y=181508&z=1&sv=wellesley+st&st=6&tl=Wellesley+Street,+E_1&searchp=newsearch.srf&mapp=newmap.srf

[jeeb]

I agree Peter, it is definately 69 Wellesley Street and he was a Traveller. Where I think Sharon has been extremely lucky is that the name wasn't mistakenly transcribed as 'Yates' which at first glance it looks like and a far more common name!
Cheers, Jeremy

[Peter Goodey]

"Where I think Sharon has been extremely lucky is that the name wasn't mistakenly transcribed as 'Yates' "

Good point. Something for Sharon to bear in mind for other searches, censuses perhaps.

"...a far more common name"

So it is! I felt obliged to check up on that :) and it is indeed more than four times as common!

[Sharon Medley]

Just want to thank everybody. And now I know to check "preview" before I send a message. I will keep in mind that when I cannot find a Gates to look for Yates. I can see where it could have been transcribed as Yates on the Baptismal records. I think someone was watching over a "novice" so that I would not give up so early in the game.
Sharon

[Sharon Medley]

Just wanted to let everybody know that thanks to everybodys efforts, using the address on the baptismal records, I requested a census lookup for 1861 for that address and low and behold there was the Gates family. Tracey Donaldson was kind enough to send me a copy of the original and the transcribed record, guess what, the transcribed shows YATES.
Thanks again for everybodys efforts.
Sharon