Dead end on g.g.grandmother Sophia Buchanan

[jobarbra]

My g.grandmother Sarah Ann Buchanan born Bermondsey, 1869 has a father of John George Buchanan (Ostler) and Sophia formely Bryant

She can only be found on census's 1871,81 with John and a lady called Ann Elizabeth Buchanan with siblings if Mary Ann, John George and Martha. By 1891. Sarah is married.

Martha's birth registration Surrey 1872 is with John George Buchanan (Ostler) and Ann Elizabeth Buchanan late Taunton formely Shepherd.

Assuming that Mary Ann and John are children of John and Sophia, Martha came along later.

I have a marraiage reg for John and Sophia in 1849 Newington but reason for where Sophia went. Can't find a death in the 1870's and not sure what other avenues to follow. I would say divorce is unlikey as too costly and I don't think John remarried Ann as can't find a record there either.|help|

[Chennistone]

A John Buchanan married Sep 1869 West Derby Lancs 8b 586 and on the same page is a Anne Eliza Potts...

Is this a possible?

[Chennistone]

Sorry, the maiden name is wrong _ I didn't read your post properly :(

[christanel]

Because you gave a marriage date of 1849 for John and Sophia I went looking in the 1851 and 1861 censuses. In both John and Sophia do not have any children with them. So Sarah Ann came to the family 21 years after her parent' marriage and when Sophia was aged between 37 and 45 or 39 and 47 depending on which census her age is calcualated.
Have I got this right?
Buying the first child - Mary's, birth certificate may help as she was the first born. It just seems odd that 3 children should be born very quickly to a couple who had been married for 12 years.
Christina

ps. I have just taken a look at the 1871 census andit has Ann as head of the family so technically and if the enumerator did things correctly all the children are Ann's.

[jobarbra]

Because you gave a marriage date of 1849 for John and Sophia I went looking in the 1851 and 1861 censuses. In both John and Sophia do not have any children with them. So Sarah Ann came to the family 21 years after her parent' marriage and when Sophia was aged between 37 and 45 or 39 and 47 depending on which census her age is calcualated.
Have I got this right?
Buying the first child - Mary's, birth certificate may help as she was the first born. It just seems odd that 3 children should be born very quickly to a couple who had been married for 12 years.
Christina

ps. I have just taken a look at the 1871 census andit has Ann as head of the family so technically and if the enumerator did things correctly all the children are Ann's.

Maybe John and Sophia had children earlier but they died? It does seem odd that there are no children registered from when they were younger.

It could be that Ann was the mother of all of them but not Sarah who could have been illegitimate but why would a step-mother or wife take on their husband's baby when she was still having his children too?! |nopity|

If the dad's name was made up on Sarah's certificate, there should be some evidence of a Sophia Buchanan or Bryant with a Sarah but I can't find any.

[JAP1]

Hi jobarbra,

This certainly seems to be something of a puzzle.

I'll post what I've been looking up (for my own benefit - to refer back to).

1849, Sep qtr
Marriage of John BUCHANAN and Sophia BRYANT, Newington

1851 census
Lambeth
John BUCHANAN Head 23 Postman, b Middlesex Stepney
Sophia BUCHANAN Wife 29 Ironer, b Middlesex Westminster

1861 census
Paddington
John BUCHANAN Head 37 Ostler b Stepney
Sophia BUCHANAN Wife 37 b Westminster

1867, Mar qtr
Birth, John George BUCHANAN, St George Hanover Square {this includes Pimlico}

1869, Jun qtr
Birth, Sarah Ann BUCHANAN, Bermondsey
{You have this certificate and say that it gives the parents as John George BUCHANAN (Ostler) & Sophia formerly BRYANT.
Who was the informant?}

1871 census
Kent, Greenwich
Ann E BUCHANAN, Head, 40, b Middlesex Lambeth
John do, Husband, 41, Stableman, b Middlesex Marrowborn (sic)
Mary Ann do, Daur, 9, b Surrey Bermondsey
John George do, Son, 4, b Middlesex Pimlico
Sarah Ann, Daur, 2, b Surrey Bermondsey
George THARMS or THARME, Nurse Child, 14, Blacking Sales boy, b Middlesex Marrowborn
Jane do, do, 12, born do
Charles do, do, 10, born do
John do, do, 8, born do

1872, Dec qtr
Birth, Martha BUCHANAN, St Olave (this included Bermondsey)
{You have this certificate and say that it gives the parents as John George BUCHANAN (Ostler) and Ann Elizabeth BUCHANAN late TAUNTON formerly SHEPHERD}

1881 census
London, Newington
John BUCHANAN, Head, 55, Horse Coper, b Lambeth
Ann do, Wife, 50, b Rotherhithe
Sarah do, Daur, 12, b Bermondsey
Martha do, Daur, 8, b Bermondsey

Some difficulties ...

- an appropriate death for Sophia BUCHANAN has not been found

- birth of Mary Ann BUCHANAN not found.
Bermondsey has the following Mary Ann births around the right time with surnames which appear earlier in this post:
Mar qtr 1861, Mary Ann SHEPPARD
Mar qtr 1862, Mary Ann THARME
Sep qtr 1863, Mary Ann TAUNTON

- only likely earlier marriage for Ann Elizabeth that I have found is:
Dec qtr 1853, Bermondsey, an Ann Elizabeth SHEPHERD and a Richard John TORNTON appear on the same page.
Jun qtr 1864, Bermondsey, a Richard John TORNTON died

Now I'll give my brain a rest and come back to this later!

Cheers,

JAP

[JAP1]

A hypothesis ...

Mary Ann is the daughter of Ann Elizabeth with her TORNTON/TAUNTON husband.

John George and Sarah Ann are belated (it does happen!) children of John BUCHANAN & Sophia BRYANT.

Sophia either died or "bolted" (responsibility for two littlies - and perhaps the possibility of even more - at this time of her life being too much for her).

John moved into (the widowed) Ann Elizabeth's household and they presented themselves as husband & wife.
A convenient arrangement - John thus had a 'wife' and someone to look after his two littlies, and Ann had a 'husband'.
Perhaps this was quite close to the 1871 census as Ann was apparently earning money by looking after all those 'nurse children'.

Later they had a daughter Martha together.

Why didn't they marry? Perhaps simply because they didn't (or perhaps we just haven't yet found it). Or perhaps Sophia was still alive so they were unable to marry.

If only we could find Sophia after Sarah Ann's birth ...

I guess John George's birth cert would be of interest - just to confirm that he is a son of Sophia.

Feel free to shoot me down in flames.

Cheers,

JAP

[JAP1]

Well, I truly did mean to go and do things which desperately need doing however ...

1861 census
88 George Row, Bermondsey
Richard TANTON, Head, 30, Carman, b Surrey Bermondsey
Ann E TANTON, Wife, 30, b Surrey Rotherhithe

Regards,

JAP

[jobarbra]

It's under Ianton, Ann E on my system??

The address 88 George Row is doors from where Sarah Buchanan was born, 38 George Row, 1869?? I'm guessing these people knew each other?

Martha was born in Hickman's Folly which was a road off George Row in 1872

I thought the scenario would be that Mary would be Ann and Richard's and the middle 2 would be John and Sophia's It seems strange that a women would bolt but I guess she could have. She could even have been having an affair. Who knows.

There is a death registered in Hackney 1890, Sophia aged 71 which would make the right aged? Although I think this may have been a lady married to a William.

I've checked on a lot censuses to see if Sophia was nearby but I don't think she was around. She could be loaded wrong like Tanton!

I wouldn't have thought John and Ann would have married again but I guess it would be clear if we knew where Sophia went!

[JAP1]

It's under Ianton, Ann E on my system??
I read the image of the 1861 census as Richard TANTON (on the image, Ann E's surname is 'dittoed'). Though I can see how the 'T' might perhaps be mistaken for 'I' - but it is a 'T'.

Even Ancestry transcribes it as 'TANTON'. :)


... I thought the scenario would be that Mary would be Ann and Richard's and the middle 2 would be John and Sophia's
Yes - that's what I said in my 'hypothesis' above (reply #7).


... There is a death registered in Hackney 1890, Sophia aged 71 which would make the right aged? Although I think this may have been a lady married to a William. ...
I believe that this Sophia can be discounted; she is surely the following.
A Friend William BUCHANAN married in Kent in 1842; there is a Sophia on the same page.
In 1851, they are together with wife Sophia's age as 31
In 1861, similarly and wife Sophia's age is 41
I haven't located them in 1871
In 1881, Friend Wm BUCHANAN, 65, is living in Hackney with wife Sophia, 61
In 1891, Friend BUCHANAN is still in Hackney but is now a widower.


... I've checked on a lot censuses to see if Sophia was nearby but I don't think she was around. ...
She might, of course, have been living as 'wife' to another person and have been recorded under his name.


... I wouldn't have thought John and Ann would have married again ...
Given that they were living as man and wife, and had a child together, they might perhaps have been expected to marry - unless they were not free to do so e.g. if Sophia were still living.

If you don't mind, I think it might be worth posting the details of Sarah Ann's birth cert (and John George's if you have it) just in case there is any snippet that might provide a clue ...

Regards,

JAP

[jobarbra]

Here's Sarah's birth certificate if any help...

http://i576.photobucket.com/albums/ss206/jobarbra/DSC_3883.jpg

[jobarbra]

I have just received the birth certificate for John George and it states his mother in Ann??!!

So this means that Sarah came between John and Martha but with a different mother. So I guess John could have had an Sarah illegitimately or John was marrried to 2 women at the same time??

http://i576.photobucket.com/albums/ss206/jobarbra/DSC_3884.jpg

http://i576.photobucket.com/albums/ss206/jobarbra/DSC_3885.jpg:confused:

[JAP1]

Oh jobarbra, I bet you are wishing you hadn't obtained the birth certificate for John George!!

What a puzzle!

1849
John BUCHANAN m Sophia BRYANT

1851 census
No children recorded for John & Sophia.

1853
Richard TAUNTON (variously spelled) m Ann E SHEPHERD

1861 census
No children recorded for either couple (one does wonder whether, between censuses, any children were born to either couple but did not survive).

1863
Mary Ann TAUNTON born (after 10 years of marriage)

1864
Richard TAUNTON dies

1866
John George BUCHANAN born; parents listed as John BUCHANAN & Ann Elizabeth BUCHANAN formerly SHEPHERD. Ann is the informant and signs with her mark.

1869
Sarah Ann BUCHANAN born (after 20 years of marriage); parents listed as John George BUCHANAN & Sophia BUCHANAN formerly BRYANT. Sophia is the informant and signs with her mark.

1871 census
John & Ann are living together as man & wife together with children Mary Ann 9, John George 4, and Sarah Ann 2; all recorded as BUCHANAN.

1872
Martha BUCHANAN born; parents listed as John George BUCHANAN & Ann Elizabeth BUCHANAN late TAUNTON formerly SHEPHERD

Sophia has not been found in the 1871 (or later) census.
No death has been found for Sophia.
No marriage has been found for John & Ann.

I'm thoroughly puzzled.

Just a few thoughts.
Do you have the marriage cert for John & Sophia - did Sophia sign with her mark?
Do you have Sarah Ann's marriage cert and census entries after 1881? If Sophia was alive, might Sarah Ann and Sophia have kept in touch?

If only Sophia could be found!

Sorry to be of no help.

JAP
PS: One even wonders whether Richard TAUNTON was really the father of Mary Ann ...

[jobarbra]

There's no mark for anybody on the certificate for John and Sophia. Witnesses are Mary Green and Edward Goldspink........ No ages but over 21 and lived at Henry Street. Fathers George Buchanan and Joseph Bryant.

In 1881, Sarah is living with Ann , John and Martha in Lambeth

I think the next step is to trace Sophia's family and see if she's living with them??...........back to the beginning|doh|