Tomley - John & Samuel his son (natural)?

[Hollytree]

Just come back from a v enjoyable few days at the National Library of Wales, and have attached another little sprig to a tree.

But I have a question, please tell me if this is not the place to place it.


Samuel Tomley, Blacksmith of Kerry, was born c1799, and I have just found the entry of his baptism, where it says that:

Aberhafesp parish registers:
"20 Jan 1799 Samuel natural son of John and Bridget Pursel was baptised." (Samuel says in all the census I have found him in that he was born in Aberhafesp) so this is the right man.

BUT, my query is, and this is why I think I may be in the wrong forum, is there a difference in being classified as 'Natural son' as opposed to 'Base Born', because on the same page in the same register there are the two definitions. Or is the priest being kind to the mother?

John the father, I think was a man of property/some status. As I have marriage bond of a John T marrying in the adjacent parish in 1800 and as was Samuel his occupation is Blacksmith.

Hope this isn't too convoluted!

Thanks

Anne

[Jan1954]

BUT, my query is, and this is why I think I may be in the wrong forum, is there a difference in being classified as 'Natural son' as opposed to 'Base Born', because on the same page in the same register there are the two definitions. Or is the priest being kind to the mother?Hello Anne,

Yes, "natural son" means illegitimate. Have a read of this thread (http://www.british-genealogy.com/forums/showthread.php?t=36613). :)

Meanwhile, I shall move this to the Illegitimacy forum.....

[Carmy]

Don't take my answer as gospel. In some of the transcripts I've done, the words base born, a bastard, and reputed son/daughter have appeared. I haven't seen natural son yet.

[Hollytree]

Hello Anne,

Yes, "natural son" means illegitimate. Have a read of this thread (http://www.british-genealogy.com/forums/showthread.php?t=36613). :)

Meanwhile, I shall move this to the Illegitimacy forum.....

But Wales had a different attitude to Illegitimacy I think. I do think that as far as inheritance was concerned, before Henry 8th took over Wales they considered children born outside of marriage as equal to children born to the wife. That's why I wondered if there was a subtle difference. Most Welsh registers will name the father. Don't see that so much in English parish registers, except perhaps if there is a bastardy order, and that is seperate anyway.

Thanks

Anne

[Wirral]

, is there a difference in being classified as 'Natural son' as opposed to 'Base Born', because on the same page in the same register there are the two definitions.
Was the name of the father given in the entries which said "base born", or was just the mother's name given? Was the minister distinguishing between those children whose fathers acknowledged them & those whose fathers were unknown (at least to the minister)?

[Hollytree]

Was the name of the father given in the entries which said "base born", or was just the mother's name given? Was the minister distinguishing between those children whose fathers acknowledged them & those whose fathers were unknown (at least to the minister)?

There are three children baptised outside of marriage on this page. 'Martha natural dau of Margaret Morgan, and then 'John son of Richard Lucas and Sarah Price (base born)....... so that throws my theory out of the water!

It may be that as you say perhaps the father acknowledged the child. Samuel certainly went onto become a blacksmith, and so did his son. John T was a blacksmith too...............

Wish they could come back and put us right!

Thanks for suggestions and advice

Anne