Why the move

[SLFoster]

Hi all,
Any ideas’ why my great grandmother Emm FOSTER who was born in Marylebone Middlesex and in 1881 lived with her husband and 4 children at 1 Trafalgar square London. Was By 1891 after the death of her husband living at 60A union street Plymouth and was a midwife. I can’t find any reason why the move was made to Plymouth, My father was born in 1908 in Plymouth and by 1910 they had moved to South Wales.

[sueannbowen]

When was she born? Where in Trafalgar Square? Can you give us a census reference for that?

thanks
Sue:)

[SBSFamilyhistory]

lol, perhaps she wanted to escape to the country.. sorry just had to say that

Sue X|jumphappy

[SLFoster]

Hi, Emma Elizabeth foster born 1842 Middlesex
1881 census 1 Trafalgar square RG11 0688 / 41 page 76
I did that as if I knew what I'm doing

[v.wells]

What was the husband's occupation that might cause a move to Plymouth? Was he in the military. Maybe he was a carpenter and became a ship builder. Also blacksmith's did a lot of travelling to wherever there was work as did ag labs. Maybe he was born in Plymouth and wanted to return there - you didn't say where he died.

And as SBS said, "perhaps she just wanted to escape to the country!"

[pennydog]

If you look on the 1871 census RG10 piece358 folio31 page 14, she gives her place of birth as Hampshire!

[v.wells]

And that is just around the corner from Plymouth! Good job Penny!

[pennydog]

Found a marriage in Portsmouth, but got my POrtsmuth & plymouths muddled Doh

[pennydog]

Hope I have got it right this time - there is a marriage in Plympton Sept 1861 5b 373 William Foster to Emma James - could this be them?

[Mutley]

It is normally relations, friends or employment that would cause a move.

But who would want to live in Trafalgar Square, then or now? Escaping from pigeons or horses, I'd suspect ;)

If you google "1 Trafalgar Square" in the quotes several references pop up and some nice pictures.

[pennydog]

I am now confused (not unusual!!) On the 1881 census in Middx, Emma, William have children William 15, Henry 13, and Albert 10 (the same names as the 1871 census), by 1891 in Plymouth the children are Edith 17, Arthur 14 and Herbert 11 are you sure that these are the same families?

[Thomasin]

Surely this is them in 1891, living in Haymarket, St James, Westminster:

William Foster 51 Porter Deaf b. Battersea
Emma Foster 49 b. Alton, Hampshire

Reference RG12; 85; 136; 36.

Thomasin

[pennydog]

Looks like it to me Thomasin, in 1881 William is a scene Helper (no mention if deaf) born Battersea, and Emma is a charwoman, can you see why I am confused?

[Mutley]

And I am even more confused. ;) SLFoster says Emm in 1881 lived with husband and four children.
Pennydog, you have only named three, William, Henry and Albert in 1881?

[Thomasin]

There is a death for Emma Foster, Strand district in Sept quarter 1893 1b 444. Strand covers St Martin in the Fields, which is where they were living in 1881 (I can't see any mention of 1 Trafalgar Square, but that would be only a few steps away).

Thomasin

[Thomasin]

And I am even more confused. ;) SLFoster says Emm in 1881 lived with husband and four children.
Pennydog, you have only named three, William, Henry and Albert in 1881?

The other one, I seem to remember, was Forrest, not Foster.

Thomasin

[pennydog]

In 1881 there is William, Emma the 3 children and the next person is Forrest Henry boarder aged 20 baker (I assumed he was not a child of Wm & Emma), then Arnold Rupert aged 17 baker and finally MacCaulay Francis John aged 30 baker.

[Thomasin]

Yes, there were three boarders, one of which was Henry Forrest (20).

Can anyone see a death for William, because it's eluding me?

Thomasin

[Mutley]

Now I have lost the plot.

William (Horsleydown 1842) and Emma Foster (Marylebone 1841) in 1881 living 1 Trafalgar Square in Peckham. Not the posh one as I thought at first. ;)

have four kids

William R Foster age 16. Bermondsey 1865
Edith M Foster age 7. Walworth 1874
Arthur Foster age 5. Walworth 1876
Herbert Foster age 1. Walworth 1880

[pennydog]

I Have lost the plot completely - you are right Mutley, the Emma & William I have been looking at are completely the wrong ones. The one you have posted above is correct and ties up with the children in the 1891 census in Plymouth. Sorry to everyone else that I have confused along with myself!!

[Thomasin]

Aha!! Another wild goose chase - but since when has Camberwell been Middlesex?

Got to rethink now ....

Thomasin

[Mutley]

It is so easy to do it especially with such common names.
I mucked up the Trafalgar Square! ;)

SLFoster was just asking why they moved to Plymouth. He/she may have all the information about their family.

But I still don't really know the answer to the original question. :)

[Mutley]

Aha!! Another wild goose chase - but since when has Camberwell been Middlesex?

Got to rethink now ....

Thomasin

It just said Emma was born in Middlesex and she was, (Marylebone).

Trafalgar Square was stated as London but we know it should have been Surrey. :D

[pennydog]

Nor do I but I have found the right family in 1871 RG10 615 145 35 in St. Mary Newington Surrey - William, Emma and son William. Emma again puts plalce of birth as middlesex!

[pennydog]

How about a death of William Thomas Foster sept.1886 aged 44 (b1842) in Camberwell 1d 444 ? could be our man?

[Thomasin]

It just said Emma was born in Middlesex and she was, (Marylebone).

Trafalgar Square was stated as London but we know it should have been Surrey. :D

I wasn't querying what SLFoster had said - I was querying FMP and the census - places which are well south of the Thames in Surrey are down as Middlesex.

Thomasin

[Mutley]

I wasn't querying what SLFoster had said - I was querying FMP and the census - places which are well south of the Thames in Surrey are down as Middlesex.

Thomasin

Sorry Thomasin, I don't know about FMP.
The Ancespot has it as London.

[Thomasin]

Do you think it's William Thomas Foster who married Emma Elizabeth Dawson? The initials fit on the 1871 census. They married in Lambeth district, Sept quarter 1864 1d 605.

Thomasin

[pennydog]

One last thought on the original question of why the move - Edith's occupation is down as 'pupil teacher school' - so could she have been a trainee teacher and the family went with her whilst she trained?

[pennydog]

Do you think it's William Thomas Foster who married Emma Elizabeth Dawson? The initials fit on the 1871 census. They married in Lambeth district, Sept quarter 1864 1d 605.

Thomasin

I looked at that one too and it ties up nicely doesn't it?

[Thomasin]

Pennydog could be right about the family moving with Edith. She probably had a place in a school there and also, as someone said earlier, it was an 'escape to the country.'

Thomasin

[AnnR]

Sorry to disillusion you, folks, but Union Street, Plymouth ain't the country. From at least the mid 19th century, it was a hotspot of prostitution and crime, and still is clubland. On the average Saturday night you can witness the side effects.

[SLFoster]

How about a death of William Thomas Foster sept.1886 aged 44 (b1842) in Camberwell 1d 444 ? could be our man?
Hi penny dog,
I’ve been away for the last week and have missed all the confusion I’m glad to say.
I think you are correct with the death of William Thomas Foster and with the 1871 census. Could you confirm for me that William the son has the initial R in his name because he was 9 years older than the next child edith and I was not sure if they had the same mother.

[pennydog]

Hi SLFoster, yes I got into a real muddle with your enquiry, but got there in the end.
I have re-checked the 1871 census for you and it is as follows
William T Foster Head age 29 b1842 Print Compositor
Emma E Foster wife age 30 1841
WILLIAM R Foster son age 6 b1865

Hope this is the right one!!

[pennydog]

Do you think it's William Thomas Foster who married Emma Elizabeth Dawson? The initials fit on the 1871 census. They married in Lambeth district, Sept quarter 1864 1d 605.

Thomasin

This looks very likely and would mean that Emma was the mother of William R.

[SLFoster]

Thanks pennydog,
I think I’m moving in the right direction in 1881 William Emma and 4 children including William R.
In 1891 William deceased and Emma with 3 youngest living in Plymouth but I’ve lost all track of William R.

[pennydog]

How about this for William R in 1891
86 Denmark Street, Camberwell
RG12 piece462 folio97 page10
William Foster head 26 1865 Born Bermondsey
Emily wife 28 1863
William 7 1884
Jessie 4 1887

Following this through I found a marriage on FreeBDM of
William Reuben Foster to Emily Jane A Jessop Jun quarter 1883 St. Saviour Southwark 1d52

One further thought there is a birth of William Reuben Foster June quarter 1865 in Bermondsey 1d51

[SLFoster]

Hi penny dog,
The only birth I was able to find for a William R was for a Reuben so it looks like this could be the one. I searched FreeBmd and failed to find a match don’t know why, rumour has it William was the black sheep so I may have some cousins out there if he had children.

[pennydog]

Well if that is him in 1891 he has 2 children already - yet another William!
Now you have the ref. no.s why dont you buy some birth/mariage certs. If you buy from the GRO, give the ref. no. and select reference checking, giving parents names etc. (if they do not match the cost is partially refunded) You never know what details you might uncover.
Good Luck with your searching.

[SLFoster]

Sorry to disillusion you, folks, but Union Street, Plymouth ain't the country. From at least the mid 19th century, it was a hotspot of prostitution and crime, and still is clubland. On the average Saturday night you can witness the side effects.

I’m a bit affrayed to start this again so I will keep it simple. I have now got an address for 1901 and Emma and Edith lived at 29 Richmond street Plymouth, this is no longer on the map could it be Richmond place or road. Thanks

[AnnR]

Richmond Street disappeared either during the blitz or in the post-war reconstruction. It ran from Coburg Street (still there) in a roughly south westerly direction to join with Morley Street (also long gone). If you were to overlay with a modern map of Plymouth it would be about where the Sainsbury's on Western Approach now is. My great grandparents had a shop at 11 Richmond Street.

[SLFoster]

Thanks for the info on Richmond Street. It looks like I’m going to have to make a visit to Plymouth as there seems to be a lot of my family history going on there. My father’s grandmother (midwife) was in Union Street, and Richmond Street they look quite close! And my father was born in 8 Durham place.

[Thomasin]

Trafalgar Square was stated as London but we know it should have been Surrey. :D

I'm a bit reluctant to reopen the thorny question of the location of Trafalgar Square, as we worked through (A) the one with the pigeons and (B) the one in Peckham - but while looking for somewhere else I noticed that there is a (C) which really is in Middlesex. It's on the 1872 School-Board Map of London, with one end of the square formed by White House Lane, just west of the East London Cemetery. St Dunstan's Church, Stepney, is a little way to the south.

[pennydog]

Good find Thomasin and even more remarkable is remembering the thread that this info belongs too - very impressive:detective:

[Thomasin]

I didn't remember - I did a search for Trafalgar!