View Full Version : Saint Mary Magdalen Church, Rchmond, Surrey
16-03-2005, 7:20 AM
To Peter Goody, I wonder if you could help me please regarding a problem I am having with regards my great grandmother's family. I found the entire family on the 1841 census living at Red Lion Street Richmond. There were six children in the family. My great grandmother was the 4th child and was aged 9 years in 1841. I found the first two children on a tape with the parish records for St. Mary Magdalen. The address for the family, (I think) was then Marshgate. I then found the 3rd child on another tape for the same church with the family living at Red Lion St, but I cannot find the following three children (the oldest of these children being my great grandmother, anywhere. I have the death certificate for my G. G. grandfather (i.e. her father). He died in 1857 and was still living at Red Lion Street. Is there another church around that area where they might have had the last three children baptized or should I just get this tape back and search it more carefully? on the off chance I have missed these baptisms. My g. grandmother had two illegitimate children before she married. The first one was my grandfather. I cannot find any record of his birth ANYWHERE. What do you suggest? I've tried everything I can think of. Thanking you, in advance. Betty Willson
16-03-2005, 8:49 AM
Sorry Betty, I'll have to pass on that one, Richmond isn't one of my strong points. There appears to be a St John where registers date from 1839-ish but that doesn't really tie in with your dates.
Someone will know. :)
17-03-2005, 6:38 AM
Thanks Peter Goody for replying. I have a feeling that my g. grandmother and her two younger siblings were not baptised nor their births registered. She must have been born either late 1831 or early 1832 and her son, my grandfather in November 1848. There is also no baptismal or registration record for my grandfather although he appears as the oldest child, (aged 12 years), of the family of my g. grandmother and her husband on the 1861 census for Isleworth. I have a copy of her marriage certificate. I wish in a way that I had never started this research as I can't find a marriage for my g.g. grandparents. (i.e. the parents of this g. grandmother so cannot find her mother's correct maiden name either.) On my g. grandmother's death certificate, her mother's name is entirely different from the christian name given as the mother of the 3rd. child of the family. I started this research as a way of passing the time but it now has me hooked and is slowly driving me mad. Betty Willson
17-03-2005, 7:36 AM
Can't help with the parish records but you say you can't find your grandfathers birth anywhere. Do you have a copy of his death certificate and if so does that give either his age at death or birth date? That would give you a start period to look for his birth. Have you visited the Family Record Centre at Myddleton Street I have found records there which are not listed electronically.
17-03-2005, 10:48 AM
Thanks Ron for your reply. Yes, I do have a copy of my grandfather's death cert. He died at Bowen, Australia on 26 October, 1904. His wife (my grandmother) gave his age as 55 years 11 months and 23 days. As I live in Australia, do you think it would be worth my while writing to the records office you mention? I actually found a "nurse child" on the 1851 census for Isleworth which I imagine could possibly be my grandfather. He was in the care of a person who had a surname that I found mentioned a lot when going through tapes of Richmond. I think she may have been a friend of my great grandmother. This "nurse child's" name was not my grandfather's christian name but he was the correct age and his surname was similar (could have just been a misspelling) to my great gandmother's maiden name. I searched numerous tapes of the 1851 census but could not find my great grandmother herself. Thanks again, Betty Willson
17-03-2005, 10:50 PM
Take a look at http://www.surreycc.gov.uk/sccwebsite/sccwspages.nsf/LookupWebPagesPRINT/Guide+to+parish+registers+held+at+Surrey+History+C entre+-+R?opendocument
Red Lion Street, and what used to be called Marshgate, in Richmond, Surrey are literally just around the corner from St Mary's Church. St Mary's would certainly have been the obvious church for them to go. But, as you will see from the above, there are several others. St Matthias and St Johns are both within a 5-10 walk...
18-03-2005, 5:17 AM
Thanks Lindad for your reply. I will try to get a tape for baptisms from the LDS centre for St Johns at Red Hill. I see they have baptismal records as far back as 1843. I suppose it is just possible that my g. grandmother had my grandfather baptised there in 1848. She, herself was born either 1831 or 1832 so it is hardly likely that she would have been baptised there herself but I'm willing to try any avenue suggested that it is possible for me to try. It all takes such a long time unfortunately, to order a tape etc. and then there is only one day of the week that I can go and look at it. I know there are others who have been searching far longer than I have, so I must stay positive. Best wishes, Betty
18-03-2005, 8:26 AM
He died at Bowen, Australia on 26 October, 1904. His wife (my grandmother) gave his age as 55 years 11 months and 23 days. As I live in Australia, do you think it would be worth my while writing to the records office you mention?
Hi Betty assuming that they had worked out the years correctly (not always the case) he was born November 1848. If the birth was registered it is likely therefore to be either Dec 1848 or Mar 1849 quarters (people quite often left it a while in case the child died young). I had not appreciated the fact that you are in Australia. I don't think that the FRC offer a look up service and unfortuately I am not going to be up there for some weeks now or I would check for you.
The nurse child would seem to be a red herring. Richmond is really the wrong side of the Thames from Isleworth, I don't know what travel between the 2 places was like then but it is about 2 miles away ignoring the river. If the names don't fit then I would think nor does the child.
18-03-2005, 9:28 AM
Can you give me some names? Who are you searching for? I will see if I can find anything...
19-03-2005, 1:24 AM
Thanks Ron Leech, I guess I am clutching at straws to think the "nurse child" with the wrong name is my grandfather BUT there are connections between the carer, her next door neighbour and the witnesses to the marriage of my great grandmother when she eventially married in 1852. Her husband was a member of a very prominent Isleworth family. I'll give names etc. in my reply to the next offer of help, (L.) who has asked for them. In that way I won't be repeating myself. Best wishes, Betty Willson
19-03-2005, 1:49 AM
Thanks Lindad for your offer to help, My great grandmother's maiden name was Fanny Nelhams. It was always said by my father and other family members that her father's name was Robert Nelhams. On her death certificate (she died 1903 at Sydney Australia) her mother's name is given as Florence Fanny Mortimor. She named one of her children Florence Fanny. However I found the family of Robert Nelhams and his wife Mary? on the 1841 census for Richmond. Fanny was their 4th child of six. I have found baptisms for the first three children but not the last three. Fanny Nelhams married Edward Stanbrough of Isleworth in 1852. I have the birth certificate of her second child (also born before the marriage). She registered his birth at Staines in 1851. I think it more likely that she registered my grandfather's birth than that she had him baptised. The "nurse child" mentioned above was named Sydney and his surname was Nellums ? (very bad writing on the 1851 census for Isleworth). Later on Edward and Fanny (together) had a child they named Herbert Sydney. I think you should look for an illigitimate child named Sydney Nelhams. I can't find one. After the marriage my grandfather's name was "Edward Ashford Stanbrough" and I had no idea whatsoever that he wasn't the oldest child (born after the marriage) of Edward and Fanny Stanbrough until I started this darn family research. The family came to Australia in 1865. I would dearly like to know Fanny's mother's correct name also, as I'd like to follow that line of research. I know something of the Nelhams family and I know heaps about the Stanbrough family. My maiden name was Stanbrough. Thanks for any help you might be able to give me, Betty Willson
19-03-2005, 3:38 PM
Well now, now sure whether any of this will help. I've had a look on the BR VRI and have found:
NELHEMS, Fanny Elizabeth - Christening
Birth Date: 29 Apr 1870
Christening Date: 6 Jun 1875
Recorded in: Richmond, Surrey
Collection: St John
Father: William NELHEMS
Source: FHL Film 1042204 Dates: 1839-1875
I'm not sure whether you've looked at the actual images of the 1871 census? There are six Nelhems family units - TWO of which have daughters called Fanny!!
William 41 Carpenter
Thomas 38 Blacksmith
Fanny Elizabeth 2
Thomas E 4 months
Edward 43 Home Mason
Richard 50 Gardener
Richard J 6
James H 3
Nathaniel 48 Agricultural Labourer
Thomas R 14
James R 12
F A (son) 1
Thomas 38 Labourer
Mary Ann 32
John Winslade (son-in-law) 27
Mary Fisher (neice) 8
I will email you all the images so that you can take a closer look.
So, which is your Fanny Elizabeth?!
With best wishes,
19-03-2005, 3:52 PM
Have just realised that all of the above are much later than the Fanny Elizabeth you are looking for! I don't think you mentioned when you thought she was born or how old she was when she died?
The above are obviously members of the same family who didn't emigrate so I hope they will be useful anyway. Fanny was obviously a 'family' name!
With best wishes,
20-03-2005, 1:35 AM
Hi Lindad, Thank you very much for all the work you have done on my behalf. My gr, grandmother's name was just "Fanny". I don think she had a second Christian name. Her father had a sister "Frances". All the information you have found for me on the 1871 census is very interesting. I have never had an opportunity to look at the 1871 census. I can recognize who all these Nelhams names belong to. Harriet is the most intering as on the 1841 census, she is shown as aged 5 years and the 6th child of the family, Fanny was aged 9 and the 4th child. I cannot find a baptismal record for Fanny, Thomas or Harriet. The "Fanny Elizabeth" you found is the daughter of Thomas and his wife Emma. I cannot read the copies of the census pages you sent very well as my printer wont work today!! My Gr. Grandparents (Fanny and Edward) sailed to Australia on The Commodore Perry which left England March, 1865. This is factual as I have the death certificate of one of their children who died on board and also a report from the ship's teacher who awarded a prize to my grandfather's younger brother, Alfred Frank. There seems to be no passenger list available for this voyage. As Fanny was age 9 on the 1841 census, she was born 1831 0r 1832 and must have been very young indeed when my grandfather was born in November, 1848. (if I have it right?) I appreciate your help. Betty Willson
20-03-2005, 1:55 AM
Hello again Lindad, I have just written out all the information you typed for me and notice the christening for Fanny Elizabeth (William's daughter) was at St. John. I intend to get the parish records for St. John, may take awhile, on the off chance that Fanny had my grandfather (Edward, although I have a hunch she called him "Sydney") baptised there. I think it more likely that she registered his birth, however, if she recorded it at all. Some of the Nelham names, you sent, are new to me. Thanks again. Betty
06-04-2005, 8:20 AM
I wonder if someone would be able to check the 1861 census for Richmond, No. 45 Red Lion Street. for me. I'd like to know if Mary Nelhams and her daughter Harriot are still living at that address in 1861. I have a death certificate for Robert Nelhams (Harriot's father), and my g. g. grandfather. He died in 1857 at Red Lion Street but I do not know if his wife "Mary" was still living when he died. There is so little information on death certificates. I feel fortunate to receive any help at all. Lindad went to such a lot of trouble on my behalf re the 1871 census for which I am exceedingly grateful. Best wishes, Betty Willson
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