richard potter and hugh hughes help please

[alij123]

on the 1861 census for cheshire castle street - davies family
these are my ancestors but there is also 2 other people on the census
Richard potter - grandson no age given
Hugh Hughes age 68 - servant
cant find any info on any of above, just wondered if hugh hughes was a servant for the family or just residing there
any info would be great!
thankyou

[Mutley]

Do you have the census reference so that members could take a look please?

[Mutley]

Found them ;)
Class: RG9; Piece: 2627; Folio: 12; Page: 17

John is a publican, the Globe Inn, so Hugh who says he is a pensioner is probably an 'ole fella' that helps out and lives on the premises.

Richard Potter is the grandson who is age 10, birth looks to be Warrington.

Do you have them in 1851? might be some more clues there.

[Mutley]

Hugh is still with John and Margaret in 1871 but he is now a 75 year old boarder.RG10; Piece: 3726; Folio: 34; Page: 25

[alij123]

Found them ;)
Class: RG9; Piece: 2627; Folio: 12; Page: 17

John is a publican, the Globe Inn, so Hugh who says he is a pensioner is probably an 'ole fella' that helps out and lives on the premises.

Richard Potter is the grandson who is age 10, birth looks to be Warrington.

Do you have them in 1851? might be some more clues there.

yes in 1851 there are the names:-

john davies
margaret davies
HUGH HUGHES age 49
james davies age 21
elizabeth davies age 7
edward davies age 15
anne davies age 17
frederick davies (my gt gt grandad) age 10

gosh they were busy in those days!!!!! can you please tell me where you get all your info as i have had to write down the census details that someone sent to me! and there are no details that you have mentioned.

many thanks for all your help|hug|

[Mutley]

1851, still at the pub.

John Davies 47
Margaret Davies 47
James Davies 21
Edward Davies 15
Ann Davies 17
Frederick Davies 10
Elizabeth Davies 7
Hugh Hughes 49
HO107; Piece: 2171; Folio: 773; Page: 4

[Mutley]

Sorry, we cross posted, I should have waited for your reply but I was on a roll. ;)

I have a subscription to one of the pay per view sites. That means I can look at the original images instead of just the index. There is more information on the original. So just shout if you want more. :)

I don't know if you know who the parents of Richard are but it might be these two.
Betsy Davies and Anthony Potter.
They are on the same page for marriages June 1851 registered at Gt. Boughton. 19/31

[alij123]

Sorry, we cross posted, I should have waited for your reply but I was on a roll. ;)

I have a subscription to one of the pay per view sites. That means I can look at the original images instead of just the index. There is more information on the original. So just shout if you want more. :)

I don't know if you know who the parents of Richard are but it might be these two.
Betsy Davies and Anthony Potter.
They are on the same page for marriages June 1851 registered at Gt. Boughton. 19/31

I havent got a Betsy davies on any of my census details and all i have for 1841 is frederick davies age 3 months parish - st oswalds cheshire. i dont mean to be rude but would you be able to tell me which site you use as i have been doing my tree for about 2 years now and only have brief details that have been e-mailed to me about the census details (davies) i go on free bmd (hope i'm allowed to say this) but thats as far as i go as i dont know where to start, i have obtained marriage certificates but am having problems with John and Margaret as there are so many to choose from and i dont know margarets maiden name.|banghead|

[janbooth]

According to the 1841 census, neither John nor Margaret were born in Cheshire. As well as the Frederick shown on the 1841 census, there is a James aged 10, Edwin aged 5, Ann aged 3 (none of these born in Cheshire) and an Eliza aged 7 born Cheshire. We know Margaret consistently gives her birthplace as Warrington in the census records and as the older children also give their birthplace as Warrington the probability is that John & Margaret were married in Warrington. However, as DAVIES is a relatively common surname it would definitely help to have Margaret's maiden name. I would suggest that you purchase one of the younger children's birth certificates which would then give you Margaret's maiden name. According to FreeBMD, there is a birth registration for a Frederick DAVIES in the March qtr 1841 at Great Boughton reg district, vol 19, page 57.

There is an extracted marriage on the IGI at Warrington on 7 June 1830 for a John DAVIS & Margaret POTTER which fits in pretty well with the birth of your John & Margaret's eldest child, but you do need a birth certificate to confirm that this is indeed your Margaret's maiden name.

HTH

Janet

[Mutley]

I havent got a Betsy davies on any of my census details and all i have for 1841 is frederick davies age 3 months parish - st oswalds cheshire. i dont mean to be rude but would you be able to tell me which site you use as i have been doing my tree for about 2 years now and only have brief details that have been e-mailed to me about the census details (davies) i go on free bmd (hope i'm allowed to say this) but thats as far as i go as i dont know where to start, i have obtained marriage certificates but am having problems with John and Margaret as there are so many to choose from and i dont know margarets maiden name.|banghead|

Forget Betsy (for the moment anyway);) The route I was going down is that Richard Potter is the grandson of John and Margaret. So he could be the son of a married daughter of theirs that married a Mr. Potter. I was in a hurry, spotted Elizabeth, then spotted the marriage in the right place (http://www.ukbmd.org.uk/genuki/Reg/districts/great%20boughton.html) at the right time (just before Richard's birth). What I did not check was Elizabeth's age. She would have been only 7 years old. :(

There are two births for a Richard Potter in Warrington a Dec 1851 and a June 1850, either could be your lad.

On the 1841 Margaret and John have an Eliza at 7 years so in 1851 she would be 17, old enough. There is a christening at Warrington for a Richard Potter on 18 June 1854. Parents are James and Eliza Potter. I cannot find a marriage for this couple.

The other lad may be the son of William and Emma Potter.

No of course you are not being rude, you need to ask the questions. That is what we are here for. :)

I use FreeBMD for births, marriages and deaths. It is a free site so you can mention it's name. Two of the pay sites are F*** my P*** and Anc**try. And we do not mention them by full name. I use the second one. You can register and search the indexes on these sites but you need to pay to look at the full details.

As Jan says, it is worth getting a birth certificate for a child of John and Margaret to find out her maiden name so you know you are following the correct line.

[alij123]

According to the 1841 census, neither John nor Margaret were born in Cheshire. As well as the Frederick shown on the 1841 census, there is a James aged 10, Edwin aged 5, Ann aged 3 (none of these born in Cheshire) and an Eliza aged 7 born Cheshire. We know Margaret consistently gives her birthplace as Warrington in the census records and as the older children also give their birthplace as Warrington the probability is that John & Margaret were married in Warrington. However, as DAVIES is a relatively common surname it would definitely help to have Margaret's maiden name. I would suggest that you purchase one of the younger children's birth certificates which would then give you Margaret's maiden name. According to FreeBMD, there is a birth registration for a Frederick DAVIES in the March qtr 1841 at Great Boughton reg district, vol 19, page 57.

There is an extracted marriage on the IGI at Warrington on 7 June 1830 for a John DAVIS & Margaret POTTER which fits in pretty well with the birth of your John & Margaret's eldest child, but you do need a birth certificate to confirm that this is indeed your Margaret's maiden name.

HTH

Janet

Hi Janet,
thankyou very much for the info. I tried to order fredericks birth certificate on line yesterday to no avail so i am having to post request to cheshire which is where it is. So as soon as i receive that i will discover margarets maiden name. dont mean to sound dumb but what is an extracted marriage i presume it means taken out. what is the IGI at warrington as i can only access 1837 onwards on the free bmd site.
Yes POTTER would fit, but if richard potter was margarets grandson why would he be a potter and not a davies?
thanks again janet really appreciate your help
regards
Alison

[Mutley]

These two might be yours.

England & Wales Christening Records

Edwin Davies son of John and Margaret, 27 March 1836. Warrington
Eliza Davies dau. of John and Margaret, 7 Oct 1835. Malpas, Cheshire

[Mutley]

Hi Janet,
thankyou very much for the info. I tried to order fredericks birth certificate on line yesterday to no avail so i am having to post request to cheshire which is where it is. So as soon as i receive that i will discover margarets maiden name. dont mean to sound dumb but what is an extracted marriage i presume it means taken out. what is the IGI at warrington as i can only access 1837 onwards on the free bmd site.
Yes POTTER would fit, but if richard potter was margarets grandson why would he be a potter and not a davies?
thanks again janet really appreciate your help
regards
Alison

The IGI is the Family Search site of the Mormon Church. Click here (http://www.familysearch.org/eng/default.asp). They EXTRACT christening and marriage records from the registers of churches all around the world and you can search for free. You have to be careful because some members of the church give them their research details. These are not always correct and are called SUBMITTED records. Treat these with caution. But either way you should always check the actual church records yourself to confirm the entry.

I am assuming that Margaret's daughter (a Davies) married Richard's father (a Potter) and had Richard. If Richard was a Davies he would be either a child of John and Margaret's son or an illegitimate child of their daughter.

[alij123]

According to the 1841 census, neither John nor Margaret were born in Cheshire. As well as the Frederick shown on the 1841 census, there is a James aged 10, Edwin aged 5, Ann aged 3 (none of these born in Cheshire) and an Eliza aged 7 born Cheshire. We know Margaret consistently gives her birthplace as Warrington in the census records and as the older children also give their birthplace as Warrington the probability is that John & Margaret were married in Warrington. However, as DAVIES is a relatively common surname it would definitely help to have Margaret's maiden name. I would suggest that you purchase one of the younger children's birth certificates which would then give you Margaret's maiden name. According to FreeBMD, there is a birth registration for a Frederick DAVIES in the March qtr 1841 at Great Boughton reg district, vol 19, page 57.

There is an extracted marriage on the IGI at Warrington on 7 June 1830 for a John DAVIS & Margaret POTTER which fits in pretty well with the birth of your John & Margaret's eldest child, but you do need a birth certificate to confirm that this is indeed your Margaret's maiden name.

HTH

Janet
Hi Janet,
BINGO! got the birth certificate for frederick this morning, YES Margaret Davies - late Potter-maiden name Mees. Does the census give details of where john davies was born at all please as i know you say most were not born in cheshire, as i would like to now obtain john davies birth certificate.
thankyou

[janbooth]

Hi Ali,

Great, now you can get things moving. From the 1851 census it shows John's birthplace as Willock, Cheshire (which I assume to be Wheelock), Margaret's as Warrington, Lancs as is children James, Edward & Ann's. Frederick & Eliza are shown as born Flockenbrook, Cheshire.

Unfortunately, both the births of John & Margaret are pre-registration so you will have to consult the parish registers of their birth places. The IGI does show a baptismal record at Warrington on 2 JUne 1805 for a Margaret MEES, father Isaac mother Ann and clicking on the batch no brings up 3 sisters for her: Lydia baptised 4 January 1801 and Catharine & Ann both baptised 17 February 1799. There is also a member submitted marriage record (so should be treated with caution) of a Margaret MEES & Richard POTTER on 31 October 1823 at Great Budworth.

I think for baptisms in Wheelock before 1843 you will have to look at the parish register of St Mary, Sandbach and bearing that in mind there is an extracted birth/baptism on the IGI at Sandbach on 29 August/17 September 1805 for a John DAVIES, father William mother Anchrite which could be relevant.

I think your next step should be to look at the parish registers of Warrington to look for the marriage entry of John & Margaret to see what clues you can obtain from the entry and also to track back Margaret's line as far as you can.

The LDS have microlfilmed the parish registers/bishops transcripts of both Sandbach & Warrington and you can hire these to view in situ at your nearest LDS Family History Centre (searchable on the Home page of Family Search website).

HTH further

Janet

[alij123]

Hi Ali,

Great, now you can get things moving. From the 1851 census it shows John's birthplace as Willock, Cheshire (which I assume to be Wheelock), Margaret's as Warrington, Lancs as is children James, Edward & Ann's. Frederick & Eliza are shown as born Flockenbrook, Cheshire.

Unfortunately, both the births of John & Margaret are pre-registration so you will have to consult the parish registers of their birth places. The IGI does show a baptismal record at Warrington on 2 JUne 1805 for a Margaret MEES, father Isaac mother Ann and clicking on the batch no brings up 3 sisters for her: Lydia baptised 4 January 1801 and Catharine & Ann both baptised 17 February 1799. There is also a member submitted marriage record (so should be treated with caution) of a Margaret MEES & Richard POTTER on 31 October 1823 at Great Budworth.

I think for baptisms in Wheelock before 1843 you will have to look at the parish register of St Mary, Sandbach and bearing that in mind there is an extracted birth/baptism on the IGI at Sandbach on 29 August/17 September 1805 for a John DAVIES, father William mother Anchrite which could be relevant.

I think your next step should be to look at the parish registers of Warrington to look for the marriage entry of John & Margaret to see what clues you can obtain from the entry and also to track back Margaret's line as far as you can.

The LDS have microlfilmed the parish registers/bishops transcripts of both Sandbach & Warrington and you can hire these to view in situ at your nearest LDS Family History Centre (searchable on the Home page of Family Search website).

HTH further

Janet

Hi again Janet,
firstly thankyou for all your time and effort.
I am now finding this a little confusing as some kind person has sent me a copy of the 1861 census to my e-mail addy and the birth places on there are cheshire? apart from margaret and hugh hughes. the census itself is quite hard to read as it is quite blurry but can just manage to read some of it.
Fredericks birth is actually flookersbrook cheshire.
when you say caution for the member submitted items in the IGI what do you mean?
My next step is to obtain the marriage certificate for john and margaret, (i will see if it is the 1930 one on IGI that you mentioned earlier although i found it at first i can no longer see it dont understand why.

[janbooth]

Hello again Ali,

A member submitted entry on the IGI means that it has not been extracted from parish registers and therefore can be complete fiction made up by the submitter. This is not always the case but you do have to be aware of the difference. You will not find a marriage certificate for John & Margaret as registration only started in September 1837 which is why I suggested you consult the parish registers of Warrington for the marriage I found in 1830.

Census records vary enormously and should only be taken as a guide. The 1841 census shows John as not born in the county of Cheshire but the 1851 and 61 census records do show him as born in Whillock (1851) and Cheshire (1861) so on balance I would go for Wheelock which was part of Sandbach until 1843. Margaret consistantly gives her birthplace as Warrington and the marriage record I found was in Warrington so I think that marriage record is the first one to check. Unfortunately, it won't give you the father's name or occupation for the bride and groom at that time, but you may be lucky with witnesses' names (perhaps being relations) and parishes for both bride and groom and whether they were single or widowed at the time of their marriage.

Eliza's birthplace is shown as Chester, Cheshire, as is Fredericks, Richard POTTER's as Warrington and Hugh HUGHES as Llaneglan, Wales in the 1861 and Wrexham, Denbighshire in the 1851 census.

HTH further

Janet

[MythicalMarian]

I havent got a Betsy davies on any of my census details and all i have for 1841 is frederick davies age 3 months parish - st oswalds cheshire.

To preserve my sanity, Ali, could I please ask you to clarify this? I presume you are meaning St. Oswald, CHESTER. St. Oswald had many churches named after him within the county of Cheshire as a whole - including a huge one at Malpas. :) This distinction will help us enormously in tracking your folk, although I see that some of our resident experts are already well on the way.

[alij123]

Hello again Ali,

A member submitted entry on the IGI means that it has not been extracted from parish registers and therefore can be complete fiction made up by the submitter. This is not always the case but you do have to be aware of the difference. You will not find a marriage certificate for John & Margaret as registration only started in September 1837 which is why I suggested you consult the parish registers of Warrington for the marriage I found in 1830.

Census records vary enormously and should only be taken as a guide. The 1841 census shows John as not born in the county of Cheshire but the 1851 and 61 census records do show him as born in Whillock (1851) and Cheshire (1861) so on balance I would go for Wheelock which was part of Sandbach until 1843. Margaret consistantly gives her birthplace as Warrington and the marriage record I found was in Warrington so I think that marriage record is the first one to check. Unfortunately, it won't give you the father's name or occupation for the bride and groom at that time, but you may be lucky with witnesses' names (perhaps being relations) and parishes for both bride and groom and whether they were single or widowed at the time of their marriage.

Eliza's birthplace is shown as Chester, Cheshire, as is Fredericks, Richard POTTER's as Warrington and Hugh HUGHES as Llaneglan, Wales in the 1861 and Wrexham, Denbighshire in the 1851 census.

HTH further

Janet

Hi Janet,
I have now contacted the records office and they have found the marriage certificate for john davies and margaret potter from the info you gave me they are going to send me a copy so i eagerly await this
thankyou
Al

[alij123]

To preserve my sanity, Ali, could I please ask you to clarify this? I presume you are meaning St. Oswald, CHESTER. St. Oswald had many churches named after him within the county of Cheshire as a whole - including a huge one at Malpas. :) This distinction will help us enormously in tracking your folk, although I see that some of our resident experts are already well on the way.

Hi,
The info about st oswalds was given to me a long time ago from the 1841 census, I now have Frederick Davies birth certificate which states Great Broughton as the registration district,
thankyou
Al

[MythicalMarian]

Hi,
The info about st oswalds was given to me a long time ago from the 1841 census, I now have Frederick Davies birth certificate which states Great Broughton as the registration district,
thankyou
Al

A good point, Ali. The census does sometimes throw up a county and a parish, especially if that parish were large enough to count as a separate entity in itself. But the Great Boughton reg district has sealed this as Chester area. Thinking about it, I suppose if we are talking Cheshire and just a parish, the county town could be inferred :) A bit daft of me not to think of that |hug|